BoxRec

OK, before everyone jumps on me I understand the job they do, the fact they come in at short notice, the fact they save shows, as things stand they are the lifeblood of the sport!

But what are they REALLY providing?

When Johnny prospect fights these guys they have one intention, TO SURVIVE! They will not open up, they may well be better than their record but if they start 'trying' they could get knocked out! They curl up, hold and basically wait 6 rounds, hear the bell and move on to the next payday! if the get KO'd they dont fight next week and they dont get paid...

Would our prospects benefit more with guys who come to fight??

And would we get more people coming to Boxing/staying for longer than the main event if they didnt have to 'endure' 6 prospects winning 60-54 against these journeymen?

In a time where Boxing is under threat from all angles maybe the 'encouraging' of the lesser lights to come out and fight will breathe new life into the Domestic Boxing scene??

Maybe you should also include fighters that go on far to long in there careers such as Wayne McCullogh.

Hagler2002 wrote:Maybe you should also include fighters that go on far to long in there careers such as Wayne McCullogh.

Whats your point?? anything constructive to add??

thepocketrocket wrote:OK, before everyone jumps on me I understand the job they do, the fact they come in at short notice, the fact they save shows, as things stand they are the lifeblood of the sport!

But what are they REALLY providing?

When Johnny prospect fights these guys they have one intention, TO SURVIVE! They will not open up, they may well be better than their record but if they start 'trying' they could get knocked out! They curl up, hold and basically wait 6 rounds, hear the bell and move on to the next payday! if the get KO'd they dont fight next week and they dont get paid...

Would our prospects benefit more with guys who come to fight??

And would we get more people coming to Boxing/staying for longer than the main event if they didnt have to 'endure' 6 prospects winning 60-54 against these journeymen?

In a time where Boxing is under threat from all angles maybe the 'encouraging' of the lesser lights to come out and fight will breathe new life into the Domestic Boxing scene??

Journeymen are neccessary in providing experience for young up and coming fighters, they are also guys making a living from doing so, who deserve to ply their trade. They are nothing new, and without them, there would be a serious lack of depth in boxing. There are far fewer active fighters worldwide than there were 50 years ago, especially in this country and the USA.

What you are saying is equivalent to saying 'should we get rid of the crappier teams in the premiership.

It would be far too dangerous to put inexperienced fighters in with much more experienced men, and instead you would find that fighters would just be fighting really shit opponents, rather than well schooled experienced veterans.

Which is better, a fighter getting a workout against a guy who knows how to mug, spoil, hold, and chip away enough to extend someone the distance, or an absolute mug who comes to win, but gets blasted out inside a round?

thepocketrocket wrote:

Hagler2002 wrote:Maybe you should also include fighters that go on far to long in there careers such as Wayne McCullogh.

Whats your point?? anything constructive to add??

My point seems quite valid you say journeymen should be phased out, my point is fighters who go on to long in their careers such as McCullough & Holyfield etc also come into your theory, living off what they did 10 years ago and continue to get title shot after title shot without a chance of winning.

Not so black and white James, im not saying overmatch these guys, if they are talented they should win, some of our best journeymen wouldnt turn into Mike Tyson circa 1986, they would just open up more, teach the prospect about countering in a fight environment and hey and at least a blowout would teach them about finishing..how many times have you read about young lads 'going through the motions' in these undercard fights?? Are they really learning THAT much chipping away at journeymen??

And even if they do get caught more, so what? Careers may be shorter but the general public(not us snobs) will be much more excited when they turn up at the venue

We are in the 21st century and there are many reasons why the sport is declining in popularity, one is that shows are now 'boring' to the common fan, a more competetive undercard(though not getting your prospects battered) may be painful in the short term but will IMO have long term good effects

Prime Example

http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=005065

Hagler2002 wrote:

thepocketrocket wrote:

Hagler2002 wrote:Maybe you should also include fighters that go on far to long in there careers such as Wayne McCullogh.

Whats your point?? anything constructive to add??

My point seems quite valid you say journeymen should be phased out, my point is fighters who go on to long in their careers such as McCullough & Holyfield etc also come into your theory, living off what they did 10 years ago and continue to get title shot after title shot without a chance of winning.

Its a seperate issue! McCullough/ Holy may be past their prime but im talking about the phasing out of uncompetetive fights..no matter what you say about these Two only the VERY elite would make them look uncompetetive, even at their age!

should we do something about fighters like Barkley and Taylor going on too long, yes, but thats a worldwide problem, not a domestic issue

Journeymen are necessary, if you didn't have journeymen you'd have fighters fighting guys with no fights just to pad their record. Journeymen can be tougher tasks to prospects than many fighters with padded records

Want to see an example of a great journeymen who would probably beat Khan right now - look now further than Emmanual Augustus - an entetrtaining world class fighter, and if you beat him, your top15 in the world. Are you saying Augustus should be forced to retire pocket rocket?

The only thing that should change is fighters should be moved along far faster, fighters are being moved along slower than ever. Hatton took forever being moved along, and Khan probably will take a century to fight for a real title

Don't forget Ross Purrity - beat the shit out of Wlad Klitchko the current best HW on the planet. AND NO it wasn't a case of Wlad tiring he got the shit beat out of him.

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Journeymen are necessary, if you didn't have journeymen you'd have fighters fighting guys with no fights just to pad their record. Journeymen can be tougher tasks to prospects than many fighters with padded records

Want to see an example of a great journeymen who would probably beat Khan right now - look now further than Emmanual Augustus - an entetrtaining world class fighter, and if you beat him, your top15 in the world. Are you saying Augustus should be forced to retire pocket rocket?

The only thing that should change is fighters should be moved along far faster, fighters are being moved along slower than ever. Hatton took forever being moved along, and Khan probably will take a century to fight for a real title

Augustus is competetive, he would be great for any prospect, by arguing against my point you have proved it! Does augustus just come for the payday? No..maybe not every journeymen has his talent but could we encourage 'Augustus lite'?

I totally agree with your point about bringing fighters on quicker..maybe Buckley and co for the first few fights but not after 10-15...

Let me ask this question, which fight did Amir Khan benefit mote from, David Bailey of Baz Carey?

My opinion:

firstly, nothing wrong with "journeymen" at all.... the problem is with guys who turn up to survive... not all journeymen fall into this category.

The referees are clever enough to know when fighters aren't fighting and should take it upon themselves to disqualify fighters who dont do enough offensive work in a bout...

the crowd pay for a fight, not to watch a guy hitting a punch bag...

knockout wrote:My opinion:

firstly, nothing wrong with "journeymen" at all.... the problem is with guys who turn up to survive... not all journeymen fall into this category.

The referees are clever enough to know when fighters aren't fighting and should take it upon themselves to disqualify fighters who dont do enough offensive work in a bout...

the crowd pay for a fight, not to watch a guy hitting a punch bag...

Not discounting your point in principle, but I have been to dinner shows where some likely lads (including Buckley) have done little to none offensive work bar an occasional left hook, etc., in the face of double left right hand or left right left hook arm punching ad nauseum from a total novice. It's debatable who's redundant in that situation given the likely lad is more than likely holding back!!
Factor in that it's usually business-types content with their steak & chips and chance at auction to boast a bit of flutter, who actually applaud what goes on - ultra dodgy stoppages included - even though it would appear a total farce to the naked eye of you or me or probably anyone reading this... and it makes me wonder if it really needs to be stopped. No one gets hurt (bar the integrity of boxing some might say) and the clueless crowd is content; Buckley, Kirk & co. have their pint or McDonalds and are soon gone with their kit bag; prospect is padded along in another step toward likely 'exposure'; main plus being there's usually little to no needless blood on the money doled out at the end. As I said though - I agree with your point in principle, especially if it were on a big MEN card or Arena card and you're paying mid-three digits for it!

Problem is there are two levels of journeymen quite hard to guage on paper.

Take for example the likes of Billy Smith, Steve Gethin, Keith Jones etc. Piss poor records, most of the losses will be 60-55 on paper, but always try and win.

Then you have guys like Buckley, Delroy Spencer who are really no good for the prospect.

But I suppose they all have their purpose, it would still look impressive if you could find away through the Buckley guard and score a KO.

The problem has never been the journey man its always the promoter picking easy fights for his prospect. You want to see a good fight put two guys on who can't box but think they can has long has they have similar skill level you have entertainment.

So called prospects and bringing along slowly for me is crap, you have a prospect keep matching him with another guy of SIMILAR talent and if he's got it he will keep winning , if he can't well your backing the wrong horse anyway

Some good feedback here...I absolutely love the likes of Tony Booth and Danny Thorpe, they are great for the learning fighters and no doubt, if they arent up to scratch the prospect could be done, or at least hurt..that should be the role..knockout put it brilliantly