BoxRec

I just watched the fight again, what a cracker! I was wondering if anyone know what the judges scorecards read at the time of the KO? I have the fight even, with three rounds apiece.

Rnd 1: Ali close
Rnd 2: Ali close
Rnd 3: Foreman close
Rnd 4: Ali
Rnd 5: Even
Rnd 6: Foreman
Rnd 7: Foreman

What I can't believe is that I still hear people talking about the fight as if Ali was taking a beating on the ropes for the first 7 rounds, well behind on points, looking to lose, then suddenly came up with a lightning combo to KO the exhausted Foreman. Well, the bit about the combo and Foreman being exhausted is right, but until then it is a very even fight. All the commentators agreed that it was a close fight, one had Ali in front, and one predicted after the 4th that Ali would win by KO inside 8 rounds. Although Foreman probably won the 6th and 7th rounds, his punching power was greatly diminished by then, and the commentators saw an Ali victory as the most likely result.

I had it 5 rounds to 2 for Ali. Ali's counterpunching really took it's toll on Foreman.

Did you see Foreman walking back to his dressing room after the fight ? He walked like a mugging victim.

I think I usually have rounds 1 and sometimes 2 even, 5 for Foreman, though Ali kicked his ass in the last 15 or so seconds of the round, and the rest to Ali.

And yes, Ali was in control for the whole fight, except for the second half of the first round and the first half of the second. He hit Foreman consistently, and many of George's shots missed or were blocked, and none noticeably rocked Ali. The fight was a clinic.

The thing is that if you watch Foreman's fights prior to the Rumble in the Jungle they look pretty much the same as his fight with Ali, so I can see how many at the time were thinking that Ali was getting killed. Foreman would pummel his opponents on the ropes, breaking them down with glancing shots, and shots that landed on the arms and on the body. I suppose it was perfectly reasonable at the time to assume that Ali would just collapse under the force of Foreman's shots, as all of Foreman's other opponents had, though Ali clearly wasn't your ordinary fighter. He could take punches better than a Norton and had better defense than a Chuvalo. And he fought back much more effectively.

After 7 rounds the official scorecards read: 69-66, 70-65, and 70-61 (not a mistake) All in favour of Ali.

jezzamundo wrote:The Rumble in the Jungle: How did you score it?

Hmmm ... I had it KO8 Ali, last time I checked.

Always found this fight to be a disappointemnt, mainly because I'd read so much about it beforehand. Ali is way ahead and Foreman just seems to be one dimensional.

I think Fine's comments below are very much on the mark. I hadn't considered this before, so thanks...

I Feel Fine wrote: The thing is that if you watch Foreman's fights prior to the Rumble in the Jungle they look pretty much the same as his fight with Ali, so I can see how many at the time were thinking that Ali was getting killed. Foreman would pummel his opponents on the ropes, breaking them down with glancing shots, and shots that landed on the arms and on the body. I suppose it was perfectly reasonable at the time to assume that Ali would just collapse under the force of Foreman's shots, as all of Foreman's other opponents had, though Ali clearly wasn't your ordinary fighter.

Another "defining" difference is that Joe and Kenny had been demolished by this guy and everyone figured that Ali would just be the "third stooge".

However part of Joe's operating procedure was to let people hit him in the head until they get tired and he figured he would eventually get to them.....not a good plan with Foreman. Ali protected his head in multiple ways not the least of which was to always move with the incoming punches, lessening the effect. Add the best chin in HW history and you begin to even the odds as the big guy gets tired of attempting to find such an elusive target. Ali could take it to the body as well, obviously.

And of course a good dose of poison always helps. ....

Hmmm ... I had it KO8 Ali, last time I checked.

Your mother was a whore and your father smelled of elderberries. Viking elderberries.

jezzamundo wrote:Your mother was a whore and your father smelled of elderberries. Viking elderberries.

Should I go away now, lest you taunt me a second time?

Eric the Viking wrote:

jezzamundo wrote:Your mother was a whore and your father smelled of elderberries. Viking elderberries.

Should I go away now, lest you taunt me a second time?

I woudn't advise it, A normal man can only survive a taunt and a half...In the case of a Viking, maybe twice that. But is it worth the risk?

jezzamundo wrote:I just watched the fight again, what a cracker! I was wondering if anyone know what the judges scorecards read at the time of the KO? I have the fight even, with three rounds apiece.

Rnd 1: Ali close
Rnd 2: Ali close
Rnd 3: Foreman close
Rnd 4: Ali
Rnd 5: Even
Rnd 6: Foreman
Rnd 7: Foreman

What I can't believe is that I still hear people talking about the fight as if Ali was taking a beating on the ropes for the first 7 rounds, well behind on points, looking to lose, then suddenly came up with a lightning combo to KO the exhausted Foreman. Well, the bit about the combo and Foreman being exhausted is right, but until then it is a very even fight. All the commentators agreed that it was a close fight, one had Ali in front, and one predicted after the 4th that Ali would win by KO inside 8 rounds. Although Foreman probably won the 6th and 7th rounds, his punching power was greatly diminished by then, and the commentators saw an Ali victory as the most likely result.

How the hell do you see Foreman winning rounds 6 and 7?

I had it as follows:

1: Ali (could be scored even)

2: Foreman

3: Foreman

4: Ali

5: Foreman

6: Ali

7: Ali

BoxBuzz wrote:Another "defining" difference is that Joe and Kenny had been demolished by this guy and everyone figured that Ali would just be the "third stooge".

However part of Joe's operating procedure was to let people hit him in the head until they get tired and he figured he would eventually get to them.....not a good plan with Foreman. Ali protected his head in multiple ways not the least of which was to always move with the incoming punches, lessening the effect. Add the best chin in HW history and you begin to even the odds as the big guy gets tired of attempting to find such an elusive target. Ali could take it to the body as well, obviously.

And of course a good dose of poison always helps. ....

Yep, it was actually deceptive in that way. People at the time saw Frazier and Norton, win or lose, go the distance with Ali. Foreman took them both out in two rounds. This was part of the reasoning as to why Foreman "would" destroy Ali. But what people didn't take into account at the time was that a) Frazier was a slow starter, hence the perfect opponent for George would KO'd everyone within 4 rounds... and plus, as you said, stylistically Joe wasn't a good opponent for George to begin with, as the last thing you want to do is try to absorb George's shots and try to slug it out with him and b) Norton, though hell for technical boxers like Ali and Holmes, was not able to take on the big punchers. Shavers and Cooney showed that again in later years, brutally KOing him in one round.

So, though George was obviously a huge puncher, perhaps the biggest puncher in Heavyweight history, and KOing Frazier and Norton is a big achievement regardless, there were other reasons why those performances were so spectacular. Ali was neither a slow starter nor weak chinned. Ali thrived on opponents like Foreman who couldn't hurt him and who he could out box and out last in terms of stamina. Styles make fights, and Ali was hell for Foreman, while Frazier and Norton were perfect opponents for Big George. So, coming off those wins over Frazier and Norton, Foreman's aura of invincibility was exaggerated. I think that's part of the reason why people were so deceived going into Ali-Foreman... when he met Ali, Ali was the one who had the edge stylistically.

I Feel Fine wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:Another "defining" difference is that Joe and Kenny had been demolished by this guy and everyone figured that Ali would just be the "third stooge".

However part of Joe's operating procedure was to let people hit him in the head until they get tired and he figured he would eventually get to them.....not a good plan with Foreman. Ali protected his head in multiple ways not the least of which was to always move with the incoming punches, lessening the effect. Add the best chin in HW history and you begin to even the odds as the big guy gets tired of attempting to find such an elusive target. Ali could take it to the body as well, obviously.

And of course a good dose of poison always helps. ....

Yep, it was actually deceptive in that way. People at the time saw Frazier and Norton, win or lose, go the distance with Ali. Foreman took them both out in two rounds. This was part of the reasoning as to why Foreman "would" destroy Ali. But what people didn't take into account at the time was that a) Frazier was a slow starter, hence the perfect opponent for George would KO'd everyone within 4 rounds... and plus, as you said, stylistically Joe wasn't a good opponent for George to begin with, as the last thing you want to do is try to absorb George's shots and try to slug it out with him and b) Norton, though hell for technical boxers like Ali and Holmes, was not able to take on the big punchers. Shavers and Cooney showed that again in later years, brutally KOing him in one round.

So, though George was obviously a huge puncher, perhaps the biggest puncher in Heavyweight history, and KOing Frazier and Norton is a big achievement regardless, there were other reasons why those performances were so spectacular. Ali was neither a slow starter nor weak chinned. Ali thrived on opponents like Foreman who couldn't hurt him and who he could out box and out last in terms of stamina. Styles make fights, and Ali was hell for Foreman, while Frazier and Norton were perfect opponents for Big George. So, coming off those wins over Frazier and Norton, Foreman's aura of invincibility was exaggerated. I think that's part of the reason why people were so deceived going into Ali-Foreman... when he met Ali, Ali was the one who had the edge stylistically.

Spot on... Big punchers also suffer from a no plan B syndrome. Add to this the psychological stress of the opponent not going down or not seeming hurt and suddenly the puncher starts to doubt their prowess and it's game over.

Terry D wrote:Granburk had it 8-7 for Foreman. Unfortunately as George danced on unsteady legs to celebrate then lurched to the floor, tired but happy, head-first and the TV executives edited the footage to make it appear that Ali won.

The Ali industry has a lot ot answer for.

The diving exhibition Foreman put on in that fight put anything Greg Louganis ever did to shame. It's widely known that the whole East coast knew days before the fight that the fix was in. And to guard against Big George reneging on his promise to the mob to do a round-8 bellyflop, the mobsters gave Ali a pair of Jack Dempsey's plaster-loaded gloves, and Angelo Dundee inserted razor blades just uder the outside skin. All of this was widely reported in the newspapers of the time, but all the copies were bought by Ali and his sycophantic supporters after the fight and buried or burned, so no copies survive.

Reviewing the fight footage, Crandoodle was right - there was a second puncher hidden on the grassy knoll behind the ring. If you watch the film in super slo-mo, you can clearly see Foreman's head snap *up* and to the *left*, the opposite direction it would go if the punch Ali pretended to hit him with had really landed. Conspiracy, fake!, Ali industry shills, grumble, grumble, drool.

is this another incendiary thread ?

who cares about score ?

it wasnt even halfway thru .....

ALI KNOCKOUT

if u watch the fight (and im always dubious of someone who hasnt watched a fight of that much historical importance and entertainment saying things like 'from wat i hear' ) you'll see Ali really unloading some big punches at the start...at times it looks like ALI was the one with the big bombs........... well he was really wasnt he ?

Sheesh....

Round 1- Even

Rounds 2 through 6- Foreman

Round 7- Ali

Round 8- Ali wins by KO

6-1 for Foreman. Sure Ali slippled in his shots against Foreman, but mostly all he did was cover up and talk trash against Foreman.

If you add up your own completely unbiased scorecard, it's 5-1-1 for Foreman, not 6-1.
Very insightful comments describing the fight. Very accurrate.
Thank you for yet another knowledgable and impartial post about Ali, whom you don't hate.

The fight seems so one sided to me when I watch it. Foreman's clubs never seem to really land flush whilst Ali's straight spears seem to hit home repeatedly.

there's no doubt Foreman fought a foolish fight in retrospect but there's no way I would have him ahead on the cards. If George had not imploded mentally and had regrouped a rematch would have been very interesting. With Ali on the wane a disciplined Foreman could have won a rematch. The 70s version of George just didn't have the psychological strength to do it though.

Alp, all I am saying is that Foreman was all over Ali virtually the entire time, though his punches were landing mostly on the arms, while Ali was able to slip in some body shots and head shots---to an uneducated man, who doesn't look at points, one would think Foreman was winning the fight.

Wasn't really until the 7th and 8th rounds that Ali started showing he was still very much in the fight, while Foreman was tiring fast. Yes Ali was making points, but to everyone who seen the fight, even Ali's corner, everybody thought Ali was losing it and everybody thought what he was doing was a suicide move against Foreman.

Your answer is so convoluted that it seems that you are backtracking a little bit, but I'm not sure.
"To the uneducated man, who doesn't look at points, it seems that Foreman was winning the fight."

The key phrase is who doesn't look at points. Well, you were scoring the fight and had Foreman way ahead. In a previous post, you said Ali lost every round. Then in this thread you had it 6-1, though if you add up your score card it's 5-1-1.

Yes, in the beginning it looked like the wrong move for Ali to lean against the ropes. It certainly wasn't what his cornerman had wanted him to do.
However, if you watch carefully, you see Ali catching Foreman cleanly on a consistent basis.
No, after 7 rounds not everyone thought Ali was losing it. It's doubtful more than a handful of people thought Ali only won 1 round.

However you are so biased against Ali that you don't seem to be able to recognize when he is scoring and when his opponent is not.

Well think for a second, if you will Alp, don't even think about technique, scoring, points, etc...look at the fight again, and from rounds 2-6, it does very much look like Foreman's kicking Ali's ass, doesn't it? To the occasional fan, to the casual fan, it does look very much like Ali was taking the beating of his life---what you're suggesting is that Ali wasn't taking the beating of his life, that he was easily scoring points against Foreman, never was in any danger against the hardest hitting champion in history, and that Foreman never had a chance.

To me, Foreman was giving Ali the worst beating, whether he landed most his shots on Ali's arms or not. Had Ali not covered up so damn much, it's a great possibility that Foreman would have smashed Ali just like he done to Ken Norton---watch the first round and Ali is dancing and figuring he could out dance Foreman, and then BLAM! Foreman lands a punch on Ali's neck and from that point on, Ali stays on the ropes.

And thanks for clearing my scorecard up, it was 5-1-1, not 6-1, in Foreman's favor.

No, it doesn't look like Foreman was "kicking Ali's ass". from rounds 2-6.
No, this wasn't the "beating of his life".
He was never close to being knocked out. Of course at the time, it seemed possible at the time that one of Foreman haymakers would end it.
Foreman did land some great punches, no doubt about it. Ali was also landing and there was some great back and forth action.
However, as the fight wore on, Foreman gradually threw less punches and his punches had less on them.
Ali was landing many clean punches of his own throughout the fight.
Foreget about Ali laying on the ropes. Watch who is landing, how hard, and how cleanly.
This was a very close fight. You are the first person I have ever heard of who thought Foreman was up by this much.

HomicideHenry wrote:Well think for a second, if you will Alp, don't even think about technique, scoring, points, etc...look at the fight again, and from rounds 2-6, it does very much look like Foreman's kicking Ali's ass, doesn't it? To the occasional fan, to the casual fan, it does look very much like Ali was taking the beating of his life---what you're suggesting is that Ali wasn't taking the beating of his life, that he was easily scoring points against Foreman, never was in any danger against the hardest hitting champion in history, and that Foreman never had a chance.

To me, Foreman was giving Ali the worst beating, whether he landed most his shots on Ali's arms or not. Had Ali not covered up so damn much, it's a great possibility that Foreman would have smashed Ali just like he done to Ken Norton---watch the first round and Ali is dancing and figuring he could out dance Foreman, and then BLAM! Foreman lands a punch on Ali's neck and from that point on, Ali stays on the ropes.

And thanks for clearing my scorecard up, it was 5-1-1, not 6-1, in Foreman's favor.

'enry....your a bit on the bias side. I will say that based on the history everyone at the time thought exactly that...why? Because everyone had seen George do this majic trick on all the other big guns. But IF YOU REALLY GO BACK and WATCH...there is no THERE there. It didn't happen, Ali was the boss in that ring not George. It was one of Ali's better performances because Foreman was made for him. However I remember at the time thinking that every time George hit Ali he was going to fold. I kept thinking it with every punch George threw and in about the fifth round it dawned on me that Ali had this fight in the bag. But even then I coudn't really buy it....Maybe George was just kidding and really going to end it soon. I went back and forth.

But now I have seen it over and over....and though it is pretty competitive it is obvious that these two fighters are going to likely produce one fairly predictable outcome. It would not have been much different in a re-match. The Young Foreman fight sort of proves it. (Providing Ali came in at his best again...the timing was such that Ali was beginning to fade after HIS encounter with Young...so that could have produced a chance for a loose cannon outcome I suppose).

I can't really see the Young-Foreman fight being evidence that a Foreman-Ali 2 would have been the same out come as their first fight. Ali wasn't the elusive, slick fighter he once was---and Foreman was more or less boxing with Young, rather than going for the kill. Besides, Ali more or less lost to Young himself, so that is a biased thing to say that just because Young won against Foreman, doesn't really translate that Foreman would lose again to Ali.

Ali after Foreman was much more flat footed, much slower, and had hell with Ron Lyle and was able to get hit more often---I think Foreman would have fought a bit smarter a second go around with Ali, maybe he would have lost to Ali, but I could see it going the distance, much like Ali did with Shavers, with a greater chance of Ali losing by KO than he did in their first fight.

HomicideHenry wrote:I can't really see the Young-Foreman fight being evidence that a Foreman-Ali 2 would have been the same out come as their first fight. Ali wasn't the elusive, slick fighter he once was---and Foreman was more or less boxing with Young, rather than going for the kill. Besides, Ali more or less lost to Young himself, so that is a biased thing to say that just because Young won against Foreman, doesn't really translate that Foreman would lose again to Ali.

Ali after Foreman was much more flat footed, much slower, and had hell with Ron Lyle and was able to get hit more often---I think Foreman would have fought a bit smarter a second go around with Ali, maybe he would have lost to Ali, but I could see it going the distance, much like Ali did with Shavers, with a greater chance of Ali losing by KO than he did in their first fight.

If you want to factor in the "fade" effect I will grant that Ali was losing physical skills, however Foreman's psyche was shot to hell. I think that more than equalizes the odds. Foreman was not fit to fight for air anytime soon after the Young fight.