BoxRec

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He staggered Joe Frazier.

granberry wrote:He staggered Joe Frazier.

As badly as Ali did in their second fight? Did the ref give Joe some help in that one as well? I can't remember it clearly.

BoxBuzz wrote:

granberry wrote:He staggered Joe Frazier.

As badly as Ali did in their second fight? Did the ref give Joe some help in that one as well? I can't remember it clearly.

You desperate Ali salesmen try to work your sales pitches for your fraudulent hero in no matter how awkward and obvious your sales pitch appears.

To answer your pathetic, contrived "question",

your hero's landing on the seat of his pants when he was hit by Sonny Banks' left hook,

your hero's needing extra time between rounds when he was floored by 185-pound Henry Cooper's left hook,

and your hero's landing FLAT ON HIS BACK when he was clobbered by Joe Frazier's left hook

as well as your hero's landing on both knees as if he were making obeisance to Frazier and his left hook in the 11th round of the same fight

are 100 fold the effect Ramos' right hand had on Frazier.

You pandering Ali salesmen have a pathetic existence.

granberry wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:

granberry wrote:He staggered Joe Frazier.

As badly as Ali did in their second fight? Did the ref give Joe some help in that one as well? I can't remember it clearly.

You desperate Ali salesmen try to work your sales pitches for your fraudulent hero in no matter how awkward and obvious your sales pitch appears.

To answer your pathetic, contrived "question",

your hero's landing on the seat of his pants when he was hit by Sonny Banks' left hook,

your hero's needing extra time between rounds when he was floored by 185-pound Henry Cooper's left hook,

and your hero's landing FLAT ON HIS BACK when he was clobbered by Joe Frazier's left hook

as well as your hero's landing on both knees as if he were making obeisance to Frazier and his left hook in the 11th round of the same fight

are 100 fold the effect Ramos' right hand had on Frazier.

You pandering Ali salesmen have a pathetic existence.

I'm getting a little tired of correcting all your mistakes, Granberry. But Ali's knees did NOT touch down in the 11th round of the first fight with Frazier. Study up.

Knucklez wrote:

granberry wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote: As badly as Ali did in their second fight? Did the ref give Joe some help in that one as well? I can't remember it clearly.

You desperate Ali salesmen try to work your sales pitches for your fraudulent hero in no matter how awkward and obvious your sales pitch appears.

To answer your pathetic, contrived "question",

your hero's landing on the seat of his pants when he was hit by Sonny Banks' left hook,

your hero's needing extra time between rounds when he was floored by 185-pound Henry Cooper's left hook,

and your hero's landing FLAT ON HIS BACK when he was clobbered by Joe Frazier's left hook

as well as your hero's landing on both knees as if he were making obeisance to Frazier and his left hook in the 11th round of the same fight

are 100 fold the effect Ramos' right hand had on Frazier.

You pandering Ali salesmen have a pathetic existence.

I'm getting a little tired of correcting all your mistakes, Granberry. But Ali's knees did NOT touch down in the 11th round of the first fight with Frazier. Study up.

not the first time granberry has claimed this...I have not seen it in any tape I have viewed. Once again granberrry can be a great historian on occasion but has serious blind spots or an over active imagination at times.

He seems to be part historian and part hysterian.

Knucklez wrote: I'm getting a little tired of correcting all your mistakes, Granberry. But Ali's knees did NOT touch down in the 11th round of the first fight with Frazier. Study up.

kunckledragger,

You yourself are a MISTAKE as a clown attempting to post on a "boxing" site.

A few seconds into round 11 (this was the round AFTER referee Merchante stuck his fingers in Frazier's eye)

Frazier hit Ali with a left hook and Ali went down on both kness. AND SAT THERE.

Frazier went to a neutral corner. "Referee" Merchante called it a "slip."

Frazier looked on in astonishment at Merchante's partisan call on the knockdown, came out of the corner and continued after poor Ali with 2 1/2 minutes left in the round.

For the last minute and a half of the round poor Ali staggered around like he was auditioning for a role as a drunk in a fifth rate silent movie.

THAT IS WHY ALI SHILL AND EMPLOYEE FERDIE PACHECO CALLED THIS ROUND "THE TERRIBLE 11TH" in a book he wrote.

Knucklez is so incompetent he posts lies here and thinks he can get away with it.

Anyone here can watch a film of the "terrible 11th" and see exactly what I described above.

Knuckledragger,

Now tell us that Frazier did not knock Alii down in the 15th round of this fight.

BoxBuzz wrote:I have not seen it in any tape I have viewed.

That's because you are incompetent when it comes to this subject, buzz.

And apparently blind as a bat too.

And proud of it.

Being a member of the "religion" of Ali does strange things to people.

Poor buzz is a living example.

granberry wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:I have not seen it in any tape I have viewed.

That's because you are incompetent when it comes to this subject, buzz.

And apparently blind as a bat too.

And proud of it.

Being a member of the "religion" of Ali does strange things to people.

Poor buzz is a living example.

Well here is the 11th round....I don't see the punch that connects to create the fall....there was water on the canvas...that much is certain and he falls just as you say. But in all the tapes I've seen it seems to my eye a slip. However You and Joe believe it was due to a punch. Bad round for Ali..as you point out. Though Joe didn't want to take Ali's bumbling to the bank at that time. Bad Judgment on Joe's Part maybe? Certainly a missed opportunity right?

But you never talk about that round that Joe got wobbled in their second fight. You won't talk about the Terrell fight... Your just as bad as the folks you accuse in not "being balanced" IMHO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1b3G6A1NB4

granberry wrote:

Knucklez wrote: I'm getting a little tired of correcting all your mistakes, Granberry. But Ali's knees did NOT touch down in the 11th round of the first fight with Frazier. Study up.

kunckledragger,

You yourself are a MISTAKE as a clown attempting to post on a "boxing" site.

A few seconds into round 11 (this was the round AFTER referee Merchante stuck his fingers in Frazier's eye)

Frazier hit Ali with a left hook and Ali went down on both kness. AND SAT THERE.

Frazier went to a neutral corner. "Referee" Merchante called it a "slip."

Frazier looked on in astonishment at Merchante's partisan call on the knockdown, came out of the corner and continued after poor Ali with 2 1/2 minutes left in the round.

For the last minute and a half of the round poor Ali staggered around like he was auditioning for a role as a drunk in a fifth rate silent movie.

THAT IS WHY ALI SHILL AND EMPLOYEE FERDIE PACHECO CALLED THIS ROUND "THE TERRIBLE 11TH" in a book he wrote.

Knucklez is so incompetent he posts lies here and thinks he can get away with it.

Anyone here can watch a film of the "terrible 11th" and see exactly what I described above.

Knuckledragger,

Now tell us that Frazier did not knock Alii down in the 15th round of this fight.

Gran,

Thanks for the description of the 11th, though I've probably seen it more times than you have. When exactly was the contents of the rest of the round in dispute. I look forward to you posting me the section of this thread that covers that. If you fail to do so, then I will take it that you are admitting that you are wrong.

As for the slip: I think this is the perfect example of how your anti-Ali sentiments cloud your judgement as much as the pro-Ali camp are often similarly blinded from the truth. That you can't see the irony in this makes your ranting highly amusing to the observer.

Ali's "KNEES" did not touch down, as you claim above and he did not "sit there", as you also said above. His RIGHT KNEE (notice the singular) touched the floor, and then he stood up immediately. His other knee did not touch down and he did not "sit there".

I trust you will watch the clip again to refresh your memory and then come back and apologise to me for the error. As I said early....study up.

I've put that up on a 54 inch screen and watched it frame by frame today.

It is a slip..all the body mechanics that you can actually SEE in this clip make it clear. I would be just as happy to report it as a KD if that's what it was. But clearly the mechanics of his fall are indicating feet that are not tracting on the canvas. A slip...and he is down a fraction of a second with his head clear.....I do think that this was a very bad ego moment for him though....he was down.....and he is embarrased and Joe is fired up and when Smokin Joe is fired up....it's going to be bad for anyone in his way..... making it truly the "Terrible 11th".

The most remarkable thing about that clip is Archies contributions...he is clear thinking, well spoken and in good shape after one of the most spectacular careers in the entire history of boxing. Amazing human being.

If he's referring to the 1st Ali-Frazier fight, there was indeed a few "no count" knockdowns, where Ali would get up before the referee could even spit out "one", so they never technically went into the books as being true knockdowns as the referee never gave the official word to rule it as a knock down.

I would recommend to everyone to simply ignore granberry's posts regarding Ali . . . . this crap is getting old.

HomicideHenry wrote:If he's referring to the 1st Ali-Frazier fight, there was indeed a few "no count" knockdowns, where Ali would get up before the referee could even spit out "one", so they never technically went into the books as being true knockdowns as the referee never gave the official word to rule it as a knock down.

This is absolute nonsense.

1. Ali was only knocked down by a punch once, in the 15th round.

2. In a boxing match the referee doesn't "spit out one". The referee picks up the count from the knockdown timekeeper. For example if the knockdown time keeper is at 3 when the referee is finished making sure that the fighter scoring the knockdown is moving to a neutral corner, the referee will start his count at 4.

3. If a fighter goes down by a punch, regardless of how briefly, it's a knockdown. Even if the knockdown time keeper doesn't even reach the count of one and the fallen fighter has already risen, it's an official knockdown.

The heading of this thread is Manuel Ramos not Ali-Frazier. Let's respect ther thread instead of repeating the same arguments over and over.

Ramos was a brave but limited heavyweight who packed a fair punch and tried his best. I met him very briefly years ago and he seemed like a very nice.

I understand his death was from cancer.

Sorry, as what often happens the conversation did eventually move away from the original thread.

Ramos does seem to be a guy who showed a little bit of promise. When he fought Frazier he was 21-6-2 and had won his last 15 fights. After losing to Frazier, he did take on a lot of good fighters and almost always lost. He even started to losing to mediocre fighters. He lost his last 15 fights. Maybe he lost his confidence?

Ambling Alp wrote:Sorry, as what often happens the conversation did eventually move away from the original thread.

Ramos does seem to be a guy who showed a little bit of promise. When he fought Frazier he was 21-6-2 and had won his last 15 fights. After losing to Frazier, he did take on a lot of good fighters and almost always lost. He even started to losing to mediocre fighters. He lost his last 15 fights. Maybe he lost his confidence?

Maybe he wasn't well enough taught, despite the abilities he did have.

There are few heavyweights in Mexico.

How would he get sparring partners?

Who trained and taught him?

Canadian George Chuvalo said after his own career was over that he would have done better if he had had experienced US trainers from the start.

granberry wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:Sorry, as what often happens the conversation did eventually move away from the original thread.

Ramos does seem to be a guy who showed a little bit of promise. When he fought Frazier he was 21-6-2 and had won his last 15 fights. After losing to Frazier, he did take on a lot of good fighters and almost always lost. He even started to losing to mediocre fighters. He lost his last 15 fights. Maybe he lost his confidence?

Maybe he wasn't well enough taught, despite the abilities he did have.

There are few heavyweights in Mexico.

How would he get sparring partners?

Who trained and taught him?

Canadian George Chuvalo said after his own career was over that he would have done better if he had had experienced US trainers from the start.

It's a good point. In the UK fighters used to (80s and 90s) go over to USA after 10-15 fights for some sparring etc... I always thought to myself that they should have gone earlier, in fact the sooner the better.

Dennis Andries improved massively during his time at the Kronk gym.

enrique wrote:
Ramos was a brave but limited heavyweight who packed a fair punch and tried his best.

What a condescending comment, Enrique.

I would say he certainly did have a "fair" punch.

He staggered Frazier with a single right hand.

My guess is that there were no trainers where he came from competent to train a heavyweight.

Heavyweights are a special breed of fighter and there are many things very different involved in handling and teaching them as compared with the other weight classes.

enrique wrote:The heading of this thread is Manuel Ramos not Ali-Frazier. Let's respect ther thread instead of repeating the same arguments over and over.

Ramos was a brave but limited heavyweight who packed a fair punch and tried his best. I met him very briefly years ago and he seemed like a very nice.

I understand his death was from cancer.

Enrique,

You should be specific in your complaint.

It was buzz who hijacked this thread over to his pathetic, juvenile, Ali promoting nonsense with the following post:

_________________________________________________________

BoxBuzz wrote:

granberry wrote:He staggered Joe Frazier.

As badly as Ali did in their second fight? Did the ref give Joe some help in that one as well? I can't remember it clearly.

____________________________________________________________

Ambling Alp wrote:
2. In a boxing match the referee doesn't "spit out one". The referee picks up the count from the knockdown timekeeper. For example if the knockdown time keeper is at 3 when the referee is finished making sure that the fighter scoring the knockdown is moving to a neutral corner, the referee will start his count at 4.

Alp,

Tell that to the referee in the 'Long Count' Dempsey-Tunney fight.

LOL

Just trying to get the thread back on track. I'm not being condescending when I say Ramos did have a fair punch. He was not a one shot fighter but could knock out guys with a well delivered uppercut.

I definitely agree that early in his career he lacked good training, sparring and probably amateur experience at his weight level.

granberry wrote:

Knucklez wrote: I'm getting a little tired of correcting all your mistakes, Granberry. But Ali's knees did NOT touch down in the 11th round of the first fight with Frazier. Study up.

kunckledragger,

You yourself are a MISTAKE as a clown attempting to post on a "boxing" site.

A few seconds into round 11 (this was the round AFTER referee Merchante stuck his fingers in Frazier's eye)

Frazier hit Ali with a left hook and Ali went down on both kness. AND SAT THERE.

Frazier went to a neutral corner. "Referee" Merchante called it a "slip."

Frazier looked on in astonishment at Merchante's partisan call on the knockdown, came out of the corner and continued after poor Ali with 2 1/2 minutes left in the round.

For the last minute and a half of the round poor Ali staggered around like he was auditioning for a role as a drunk in a fifth rate silent movie.

THAT IS WHY ALI SHILL AND EMPLOYEE FERDIE PACHECO CALLED THIS ROUND "THE TERRIBLE 11TH" in a book he wrote.

Knucklez is so incompetent he posts lies here and thinks he can get away with it.

Anyone here can watch a film of the "terrible 11th" and see exactly what I described above.

Knuckledragger,

Now tell us that Frazier did not knock Alii down in the 15th round of this fight.

Frazier did knock Ali down in the 15th, but not in the 11th. Banks did knock Ali down in the first round, Ali knocked Banks down in the second and finished him in the 4th. Ali was 194lbs, Banks was 191lbs. Jones did not knock Ali down in any round. The crowd booed because Ali did not KO Jones in the fourth, but instead won a unanimous decision in Jones' home town. Ali was 202 lbs, Jones was 188. Ali and Jones were the second and third contenders for Liston's title at the time. The number one contender was Patterson, who was about 190lbs.

Ali's glove was replaced during the break in the first Cooper fight, at most there were a few seconds extra. The only reason Cooper got the chance to knock Ali down was that Ali declined to KO him earlier, because he foolishly predicted he would win in the fifth round, (which he did). The extra time was dreamt up by English journalists over several pints of brown ale.

Manuel Ramos's best win was probably his ten rounder over what Ali and Thad Spencer left of Ernie Terrell.

2. In a boxing match the referee doesn't "spit out one". The referee picks up the count from the knockdown timekeeper. For example if the knockdown time keeper is at 3 when the referee is finished making sure that the fighter scoring the knockdown is moving to a neutral corner, the referee will start his count at 4.

Then how do you explain Dempsey-Tunney 2 or Liston-Ali 2? You can't really blame it on bad referees...same thing happened in Tyson-Douglas, the 'knockdown timekeeper' had it at 3 before the referee said 1, the referee in no way shape or form has to go straight to the timekeeper for anything, he is the man in charge in that ring!

HomicideHenry wrote:

2. In a boxing match the referee doesn't "spit out one". The referee picks up the count from the knockdown timekeeper. For example if the knockdown time keeper is at 3 when the referee is finished making sure that the fighter scoring the knockdown is moving to a neutral corner, the referee will start his count at 4.

Then how do you explain Dempsey-Tunney 2 or Liston-Ali 2? You can't really blame it on bad referees...same thing happened in Tyson-Douglas, the 'knockdown timekeeper' had it at 3 before the referee said 1, the referee in no way shape or form has to go straight to the timekeeper for anything, he is the man in charge in that ring!

The referee is suppose to go to the timekeeper to pick up the count, the referee is in charge as far as calling a knockdown a knockdown or a slip, but if he call a knockdown then by all means he is suppose and should go to the timekeeper to pick up the count, a referee that does not do that is a referee that sholudn't be refereeing.

Btw, I think Ramos's best win was against Eddie Machen in 1966, a fight that I seen live