BoxRec

I compiled my own top 10 heavyweights of all time,and put Mike Tyson at number #9.Where should he be ranked in the top 10,or not be ranked at all.any thoughts

Roaring wrote:I compiled my own top 10 heavyweights of all time,and put Mike Tyson at number #9.Where should he be ranked in the top 10,or not be ranked at all.any thoughts

anywhere from 10-15. Not quite top ten material.

I rank Tyson way behind Holmes, Holyfield and Lewis...I personally rank him somewhere around 12-15, considering I have the #10 slot for Holmes and #11 for Lewis.

sockdolager wrote:

Roaring wrote:I compiled my own top 10 heavyweights of all time,and put Mike Tyson at number #9.Where should he be ranked in the top 10,or not be ranked at all.any thoughts

anywhere from 10-15. Not quite top ten material.

If he had half a brain or even good people around him he would have been top five easily.

I even think if Cus had been around for Tysons whole career he could have been number one.

But as it stands Tyson somewhere around the 10 mark is probably right.

Who would you guys place ahead of Tyson ?

Also what is the criteria ?

Greatness at cultural impact, popularity, quality of challenges, reign, or who is the best inside of the ring where it counts.

I think the peak Tyson had so much potential, he rose in an era of coked up challengers, and pop culture promotions...that being said he had so many qualities that he was the perfect realisation of the D'amto Wiley (peek a boo) style. I think he from that stage of his life and career could beat alot of Great HW champs. I have no idea where I would place him...I shall have to sit and think.

Kym

I wouldn't object to someone putting Tyson at #10, but no higher. I personally would put him 11-15. There's plenty of champions who are more deserving of top 10.

I don't agree marlin that Tyson would be top 5 easy if he had been smarter. He might still lose to Lewis, Holyfield, maybe Bowe. I don't even know that a disciplined Tyson beats Douglas in Tokyo, even if its a closer fight.

I Feel Fine wrote:I wouldn't object to someone putting Tyson at #10, but no higher. I personally would put him 11-15. There's plenty of champions who are more deserving of top 10.

I don't agree marlin that Tyson would be top 5 easy if he had been smarter. He might still lose to Lewis, Holyfield, maybe Bowe. I don't even know that a disciplined Tyson beats Douglas in Tokyo, even if its a closer fight.

I think a disciplined Tyson gets past Douglas in Tokyo. After that if say he never went to jail he would have had to face Holyfield sooner and lose that, Lewis earlier and lose that. His confidence would be shot from there on out and we would have seen a very similar Tyson with maybe 5 or 6 extra fights under his belt.

I think Larry Merchant put it kinda best on Tyson [when comparing him to Joe Frazier]: "Frazier was a foot deep and a mile wide, Tyson was an inch deep and a mile wide."

Tyson sure did have all the necessary tools for the business, but he lacked the one thing a fighter needs: confidence, that iron will self belief in the face of danger. Tyson crumbled in the amateurs a few times, and from Douglas onward it became all the more apparent to the die hard fans what Tyson was actually made of.

Dempsey, Marciano, Jefferies, Frazier (who were in the style of Tyson) had that in themselves, and were far more successful. Wasn't that they were better skill wise, etc it just came down to who wanted it more and who could take more...Tyson was probably as tough as any of them, his loss to Lewis shows that, it's just when the going actually got tough...Tyson stopped being effective in the ring, he was completely lost and all but helpless.

Any all-time great heavyweights higher than Tyson but not Lewis and Bowe. For Lewis who is aging who beats the aging Tyson that were fighting are not so classic to me. If anyone ever thinks Lewis is greater than Tyson then you are the people who are hiding favors behind Lewis are kissing Lewis' ass that's what you are right now. I don't give a damm if Lewis had a height, weight, and reach advantage the prime Lewis couldn't beat the prime Tyson if Gus D'Amato several years longer.

kovit wrote:Any all-time great heavyweights higher than Tyson but not Lewis and Bowe. For Lewis who is aging who beats the aging Tyson that were fighting are not so classic to me. If anyone ever thinks Lewis is greater than Tyson then you are the people who are hiding favors behind Lewis are kissing Lewis' ass that's what you are right now. I don't give a damm if Lewis had a height, weight, and reach advantage the prime Lewis couldn't beat the prime Tyson if Gus D'Amato several years longer.

lol

I agree with the 10-15 rank.

Tyson was never that disciplined though. Cud D'Amato was always covering up his misdemeanours. He hit Mitch Green in the street long before he met Douglas. He got involved in all kinds of rubbish.

He was an exciting fighter who went down hill once his aura of invincibility had gone.

Mine:

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Foreman
5. Marciano
6. Frazier
7. Lewis
8. Johnson
9. Dempsey
10. Liston
11. Holyfield
12. Tyson

BTW I like your list, Decagon, one of the better ones I have seen.

HomicideHenry wrote:I rank Tyson way behind Holmes, Holyfield and Lewis...I personally rank him somewhere around 12-15, considering I have the #10 slot for Holmes and #11 for Lewis.

Holmes at #10, shit the bed, who is above him on your list?
Ive got Holmes at #3 and most have him top 4. Lewis is controversial but I have him at #6 or #7. I can see why you have him at #11 but hes the best heavyweight in a strong era IMO
To answer the original question I rank Tyson anywhere between #10 and #12

Decagon wrote:1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Larry Holmes
4. Jack Johnson
5. Joe Frazier
6. Sonny Liston
7. George Foreman
8. Evander Holyfield
9. Rocky Marciano
10. Lennox Lewis
11. Jack Dempsey
12. Mike Tyson
13. Gene Tunney
14. Ezzard Charles
15. Jersey Joe Walcott
16. Max Schmelling
17. Jim Jeffries
18. Sam Langford
19. Riddick Bowe
20. Floyd Patterson

How come you rate Frazier over Foreman, Dec? Frazier had the better legacy probably, but Foreman annhilated him twice

Tyson does not rank in my top 10, although I acceppt that the 1986 version of Mike would have given any HW in history a huge fright.

Marlin wrote:I even think if Cus had been around for Tysons whole career he could have been number one.

I disagree.

Tyson went off the rails before he met Cus, during his time with Cus and after Cus had died. Tyson was always screwing things up, it's just that when Cus was around either he or Clayton & Jacobs would cover things up or 'sort the situation out' etc.

Even during the Cus years Tyson was always going missing when he should have been training or at least in Catskill. When he would go AWOL Cus would often send Jose Torres to track him down and bring him back. Tyson would often be found partying and knee deep in women etc.

This fairtale 'Cus era' for Tyson never exsisted accourding to many who claim Cus and Tyson at times had a volatile relationship and had more than their fair share of arguments and fall outs.

Cus may of had at times had limited control over Tyson, sure but Tyson still screwed up on a regular basis. Once Cus and Jacobs died and Clayton was given the Spanish Archer, Tyson was just slightly more free to screw up as he pleased with nobody to sweep up the mess behind him. Also it has to be remembered that by the time Cus and Jacobs died Tyson has a lot more money in his pocket to screw up with and was in the media spotlight 24/7. Unlike when he was an amateur or novice professional.

Either by nature or nurture Tyson was a train wreck waiting to happen and I doubt Cus would have been able to stop it.

Whenever the topic of Tyson's all time place comes up, people either have him high or low.

Obviously achievements go a long way to determing a fighter's place among the best of all time, but when considering where a boxer should rank, is it correct to take into account how they were at their peak & who they would have beaten/lost to when at their best?

Peak Tyson had amazing speed & power for a HW. Don't think anyone had those two attritubutes as good as Tyson did. I remember HBO did a programme when Tyson was training for Holmes. It recorded that Tyson could throw a four punch combo in a second. Quite good for a HW I'd say!

KOJOE90 wrote:

Marlin wrote:I even think if Cus had been around for Tysons whole career he could have been number one.

I disagree.

Tyson went off the rails before he met Cus, during his time with Cus and after Cus had died. Tyson was always screwing things up, it's just that when Cus was around either he or Clayton & Jacobs would cover things up or 'sort the situation out' etc.

Even during the Cus years Tyson was always going missing when he should have been training or at least in Catskill. When he would go AWOL Cus would often send Jose Torres to track him down and bring him back. Tyson would often be found partying and knee deep in women etc.

This fairtale 'Cus era' for Tyson never exsisted accourding to many who claim Cus and Tyson at times had a volatile relationship and had more than their fair share of arguments and fall outs.

Cus may of had at times had limited control over Tyson, sure but Tyson still screwed up on a regular basis. Once Cus and Jacobs died and Clayton was given the Spanish Archer, Tyson was just slightly more free to screw up as he pleased with nobody to sweep up the mess behind him. Also it has to be remembered that by the time Cus and Jacobs died Tyson has a lot more money in his pocket to screw up with and was in the media spotlight 24/7. Unlike when he was an amateur or novice professional.

Either by nature or nurture Tyson was a train wreck waiting to happen and I doubt Cus would have been able to stop it.

KOJoe, this is pretty much what I've read on the Tyson story. People like to try and blame Givens and/or Cus's and Jacob's demise but I think what you've written is spot on.

Too hard to split hairs so I put them in tiers... The fighters are listed in no particular order.

Tier 1

Ali
Louis
Johnson
Holmes

Tier 2

Frazier
Foreman
Liston
Dempsey (would be tier 1 had he beat Wills)
Lewis
Holyfield (would be tier 1 with a win over Lewis)
Marciano

Tier 3

Charles
Tunney
Walcott
Jeffries
Schmeling
Langford
Wills
Bowe
Jeanette
Jackson
Tyson

I wasn't necessarily suggesting that Tyson was ever really disciplined- he still did drugs and molested women during the "golden" D'Amato years, and he even went on a robbery after he was champion, and that's not mentioning all his other problems, notably with Givens- what I'm saying is that even if there had been nothing wrong with him in terms of his conditioning, and even if his mind and private life was more stable, I still don't know for a fact that he could, stylistically, have beaten Douglas in Tokyo. I think there's a chance that Douglas might still upset him, even if its a closer fight. Obviously Tyson would have a much better chance, but I think people take it for granted that a better version of Tyson could have beaten Douglas. I don't think we really know that.

I don't see how you can come to the conclusion that Frazier was years past his prime in the first Frazier-Foreman fight.

Ezzard wrote:Too hard to split hairs so I put them in tiers... The fighters are listed in no particular order.

Tier 1

Ali
Louis
Johnson
Holmes

Tier 2

Frazier
Foreman
Liston
Dempsey (would be tier 1 had he beat Wills)
Lewis
Holyfield (would be tier 1 with a win over Lewis)
Marciano

Tier 3

Charles
Tunney
Walcott
Jeffries
Schmeling
Langford
Wills
Bowe
Jeanette
Jackson
Tyson

That looks pretty good. There are of course some bordrline cases, but this list looks very reasonable.

I don't see how you can come to the conclusion that Frazier was years past his prime in the first Frazier-Foreman fight.

I don't see either. A tad over his best, ok maybe. But the beating was so thorough i don't see anyway Frazier could have done much better even at his best.
Frazier had several good showing after that shellacking so I doubt he could have been too past it against Foreman.

Too hard to split hairs so I put them in tiers... The fighters are listed in no particular order.
Tier 1

Ali
Louis
Johnson
Holmes

Tier 2
Frazier
Foreman
Liston
Dempsey (would be tier 1 had he beat Wills)
Lewis
Holyfield (would be tier 1 with a win over Lewis)
Marciano

Tier 3

Charles
Tunney
Walcott
Jeffries
Schmeling
Langford
Wills
Bowe
Jeanette
Jackson
Tyson

Head to head, Tyson would have defeated at least 14 of the guys ahead of him. Alot of them fairly easily.

Frazier's prime was 1968-1971, so I agree with Decagon. Guys with the style of Frazier burn out rather quickly; Dempsey was used up by the time he was 32, Marciano was in his 30's when he retired. It was Frazier's work ethic, that kept him very much alive in the game for the next four years. What most people forget is that Frazier had arthritis in his back and was all but blind when he fought Manila, and it was one of the greatest fights ever.

Holmes at #10, shit the bed, who is above him on your list?
Ive got Holmes at #3 and most have him top 4. Lewis is controversial but I have him at #6 or #7. I can see why you have him at #11 but hes the best heavyweight in a strong era IMO

I have Louis, Ali, Marciano, Johnson, Holyfield, Jefferies, Dempsey, Frazier, Foreman above Holmes and Lewis....Johnson and Louis and Ali get their props from me because outside of their tremendous achievments they have an amazing historical significance; Marciano defeated the best opponents avilable, possesses the highest kayo percentage of any HW champion and retired undefeated, bad era or not what more could you ask from a fighter; Dempsey personified his age, defeated much larger opponents than himself, was the epitomy of the blue collar working class hero, his fight with Firpo was rated the greatest fight of the first half of the century and he was voted as being the greatest HW first half of the century as well; Jefferies is greatly under-rated and under-appreciated by today's historians, won the title in his 13th fight, defeated every possible challenger, retired undefeated, was never knocked off his feet until he fought Johnson six years and 100 pounds lighter; Holyfield defeated pretty much the same men Lewis did, was a 4x HW champion as well as the greatest Cruiserweight champion; Foreman was undefeated in 40+ fights possessing a 98% kayo percentage in his prime up until he fought Ali, came back in his late 30's to do what Holmes couldn't and won the title at age 45 though his overall career kayo rate dropped to 87%...

I really could go on and on.