BoxRec

I was reading about the carrer of Harry Wills and was wondering as he was never made to fight someone considered a realistic contender because of his race. Also does anyone know where I can find out more about Wills? http://www.boxrec.com/media/index.php?title=Human:17615

Yes, but he isn't as great as many claim he was. His championship competition was very weak; Even Marciano's was better.

Use the "Search" on the top of the screen and type in Willis's name I'm sure there must be a dozen Dempsey-Willis threads in the faults.

The irony of the foght not happening is that it has, in the end, brought down Dempsey's stock but raised Wills'.

In terms of the timeline many feel that Wills was past his peak by the time Dempsey was taking on challengers.

They had the contract signed at one point though and Dempsey pulled out right?

Dempsey more or less personified his age. In an time when people were burnt out from the war, after so much loss of life, they needed a high risk type of athlete. With Ruth hitting home runs, and Grange running for touch downs, Dempsey was at the top of the pedestal as he kept knocking opponent after opponent out, he even became the highest paid athlete of any sport in the world.

This success even made him become a main-stream star, as he crossed over into motion pictures such as 'Daredevil Jack' and he even married Estelle Taylor, one of the more famous American actresses. But to be honest, he was actually one of the more hated athletes in history for a time, as he never went into WW1 and got a helluva lot of flack for not doing so.

The old saying that "You need rounds to become a champion" was broke by Dempsey, considering in the five fights he had before his show down with Willard, he knocked them all out in two rounds or less, against men who were out weighing him by 50 or more pounds, who were head and shoulders taller than himself; and after the KO over Willard he was dubbed "Jack The Giant Killer".

I guess it can be said that he was a better fighter, than he was a champion, and it proved to be so, least in terms of popularity, as he only became a hero again after he lost to Gene Tunney. I'd place him in the same field as Tyson and Liston; the potential for greater things was there, but it just wasn't to be for one reason or another.

I myself don't believe the era was weaker than Marciano's, it may have fell in between Marciano's, but with guys like George Godfrey, Harry Wills, Langford, Greb, Johnson, Siki, trying to challenge him, as well as Carpentier and big sluggers like Firpo roaming the scene...it was definately a competitive era.

He could have stood toe to toe, in my opinion, with any man alive.

Well, Langford was past it, and Johnson was way over the hill by the time Dempsey was the champion. Godfrey started his career when Dempsey was the champion and really wasn't much of a factor in the divison when Dempsey was the champion. Greb and Siki were never really contenders in the heavyweight division either. That didn't stop these guys from wanting title shots, but Dempsey had no obligation to defend the title against them.

Actually, the first 4 years of Dempsey's title reign was decent -
1919-Went against Willard for the title. Dempsey brutally beat him in 3 rounds.

1920- Defended against Billy Miske. Miske was a very good fighter who only had one other official loss. Dempsey knocked him out in 3 rounds.

1920-Defended against Bill Brennan. Brennan was a respectable challenger. Dempsey won by a 12th round knockout.

1921- Defended against Carpentier -An very young Carpentier went 15 rounds with Jeannette, he destroyed some top British heavyweights. Dempsey knocked him out in 4 rounds.

1921-Defended against Hall of Famer Tommy Gibbons. Though Gibbons was more of a lightheavyweight, he had success against top heavyweights. Dempsey didn't impress anyone in winning a 15 round decision.

1923-Defended against Firpo. Firpo had scored a lot of knockouts, most against mostly journeyman. His most noteworthy win was a knockout of Jess Willard. Dempsey kncoked firp out in 2 rounds in a wild fight.

Where Dempsey should be criticized is for not defending the title for 3 years. Even if you give him the benefit of the doubt that he couldn't fight Wills, he could have defended the title atleast a couple of times against someone.

If you are just couinting his title fight, then perhaps Dempsey wasn't a great champion. However, if you are judging him by how great of a career he had, you have to include his fights in the last couple of years before winning the title. He was very impressive in his those years. He scored knockouts against Fulton,Morris,Smith and Brennan, who were contenders at the time. None of these fights went past 6 rounds.

All in all, he almost has to be considered one of the top 10 heavyweights of all time. If not in the top 10, very close to it.

It's ironic that Jess Willard was hated by many for inactivity, yet Dempsey wasen't. And then even with the draft dodger accusation in some quarters, Dempsey was clearly more popular than Tunney the Fighting Marine. Public perception is always strange to me though.

I think Dempsey only became popular after the long count.

Many would say that Jack brought tactics and skills used by fighters in lower weight classes into the heavyweights.

Different things were expected of champions in those days. Taking years off whilst champion was not that unusual.

Ambling Alp wrote:Well, Langford was past it, and Johnson was way over the hill by the time Dempsey was the champion. Godfrey started his career when Dempsey was the champion and really wasn't much of a factor in the divison when Dempsey was the champion. Greb and Siki were never really contenders in the heavyweight division either. That didn't stop these guys from wanting title shots, but Dempsey had no obligation to defend the title against them.

Actually, the first 4 years of Dempsey's title reign was decent -
1919-Went against Willard for the title. Dempsey brutally beat him in 3 rounds.

1920- Defended against Billy Miske. Miske was a very good fighter who only had one other official loss. Dempsey knocked him out in 3 rounds.

1920-Defended against Bill Brennan. Brennan was a respectable challenger. Dempsey won by a 12th round knockout.

1921- Defended against Carpentier -An very young Carpentier went 15 rounds with Jeannette, he destroyed some top British heavyweights. Dempsey knocked him out in 4 rounds.

1921-Defended against Hall of Famer Tommy Gibbons. Though Gibbons was more of a lightheavyweight, he had success against top heavyweights. Dempsey didn't impress anyone in winning a 15 round decision.

1923-Defended against Firpo. Firpo had scored a lot of knockouts, most against mostly journeyman. His most noteworthy win was a knockout of Jess Willard. Dempsey kncoked firp out in 2 rounds in a wild fight.

Where Dempsey should be criticized is for not defending the title for 3 years. Even if you give him the benefit of the doubt that he couldn't fight Wills, he could have defended the title atleast a couple of times against someone.

If you are just couinting his title fight, then perhaps Dempsey wasn't a great champion. However, if you are judging him by how great of a career he had, you have to include his fights in the last couple of years before winning the title. He was very impressive in his those years. He scored knockouts against Fulton,Morris,Smith and Brennan, who were contenders at the time. None of these fights went past 6 rounds.

All in all, he almost has to be considered one of the top 10 heavyweights of all time. If not in the top 10, very close to it.

At least Miske was well past it by the time he got his short at Dempsey. And Firpo was more a circus attraction than a great boxer. Still, he knocked Dempsey down twice. Carpentier was a light-heavyweight.

I know that it's often said that Miske was a sick man and dying when he fought Dempsey. I have always been skeptical of this. After Miske lost to Dempsey, he continued fighting and had 23 fights over the course of the next 3 years. He had no official losses (though he lost a newspaper decision to Gibbons) and had some respectable wins.

That doesn't seem like a man that was past it or too sick to fight.

I didn't mean to make out Dempsey's wins over Firpo and Carpentier to be bigger than they were.

Still a 2nd round ko of Firpo is a good result. Firpo lacked a lot of skills but he was a dangerous challenger.

Your right that Carpentier wasn't a heavyweight. Still he had some good results against heavyweights. Dempsey's 4th round ko was a good performance. Carpentier would have given several heavyweight champions trouble and he probably would have beaten a few.

yes, i rate him second best, tunney being first

Jack Dempsey was a great fighter, but Gene Tunney was even better.

Of course Dempsey was a great heavyweight. Top 3 or 4 in both the 1910s and the 1920s. How many other heavyweights have achieved that.

Tunney the #1 heavyweight of all time? Are you shitting me? Who did he beat at heavyweight for you to make that ridiculous assertion?

I think he meant Tunney was Dempsey #1 opponent, Dec.

I was wondering myself wtf he was saying...I went ballistic myself when Bert Sugar ranked Tunney above Marciano at #5 on his top 10 list, let alone someone ranking Tunney inside the top 3. Ironically, Dempsey was #3 on Sugar's list...which is something I wasn't quite too fond of either, but I do think Dempsey is inside the top 10.

HomicideHenry wrote:I was wondering myself wtf he was saying...I went ballistic myself when Bert Sugar ranked Tunney above Marciano at #5 on his top 10 list, let alone someone ranking Tunney inside the top 3. Ironically, Dempsey was #3 on Sugar's list...which is something I wasn't quite too fond of either, but I do think Dempsey is inside the top 10.

Tunney was a fine heavyweight. Pity he retired instead of facing the next generation of heavyweights, notably Sharkey and Schmeling.

I don't consider him to be a ATG heavyweight. He was passable, yes, and credible enough to meet and defeat some decent Heavyweights...but in all honesty, two wins over an over the hill Dempsey, Meehan and Johnny Risko doesn't make someone an ATG Heavyweight in my opinion.

With the logic that Tunney was an ATG HW, you might as well say Roy Jones one time splash on the HW scene against John Ruiz, makes him a ATG Heavyweight...

HomicideHenry wrote:I don't consider him to be a ATG heavyweight. He was passable, yes, and credible enough to meet and defeat some decent Heavyweights...but in all honesty, two wins over an over the hill Dempsey, Meehan and Johnny Risko doesn't make someone an ATG Heavyweight in my opinion.

With the logic that Tunney was an ATG HW, you might as well say Roy Jones one time splash on the HW scene against John Ruiz, makes him a ATG Heavyweight...

Be serious, bud. Dempsey twice, Risko, Gibbons, Heeney is 5 very good wins and a 100 times worth more than John Ruiz, who was a fake champion in the first place.

Of course Tunnee is an ATG heavyweight. He was clearly the best HW of the late 1920s. Where exactly you put him in your AT ratings is subject to uncertainty due to his short spell at the weight class thus a bit of matter of taste. Top 10 is defensible, but so is lower rating.

This said, Tunney was an even greater light-heavyweight. Top 2 or 3 all time.

The Light Heavyweight ATG ranking I won't argue with, Tunney was right behind Charles and Moore for the #3 spot in my opinion...but five fights at HW isn't a genuine HW career in my opinion. That's like saying Foster was a HW, when the bulk of his career and his greatest fights were done at 175.

I'll say this much, Charles and Tunney are alike in ways; neither won the 175 pound title, though were easily the best men at the weight, and both were under-valued when they won the HW crown...the difference is, least to me, Charles drew no lines with anyone, Tunney did. Tunney refused to fight ranked contenders like George Godfrey who were all in their prime and who would have given him a genuine test.

Tunney was untested as a HW, only had five fights. Had he fought on and took on the Max Schmeling's and Jack Sharkey's, I genuinely believe "The Black Uhlan of The Rhine" would have decisioned him.

HomicideHenry wrote:The Light Heavyweight ATG ranking I won't argue with, Tunney was right behind Charles and Moore for the #3 spot in my opinion...but five fights at HW isn't a genuine HW career in my opinion. That's like saying Foster was a HW, when the bulk of his career and his greatest fights were done at 175.

Foster stepped up a couple of times for the odd lucrative HW bout but came back to LHW thereafter. Tunney stepped up and waved LHW goodbye for good.

I'll say this much, Charles and Tunney are alike in ways; neither won the 175 pound title, though were easily the best men at the weight, and both were under-valued when they won the HW crown...the difference is, least to me, Charles drew no lines with anyone, Tunney did. Tunney refused to fight ranked contenders like George Godfrey who were all in their prime and who would have given him a genuine test.

I don't know why Godfrey comes up all the time. If there is an opponent Tunney avoided it's first and foremost Jack Sharkey, which has little to do with "drawing the line" (this said, Sharkey would arguably have gotten his shot had he seen his fight through against Dempsey).

Godfrey was decent but didn't possess the status Harry Wills had in the early 1920s. In 1926/27 he was one of several contenders, but not the obvious man to fight.

Tunney was untested as a HW, only had five fights. Had he fought on and took on the Max Schmeling's and Jack Sharkey's, I genuinely believe "The Black Uhlan of The Rhine" would have decisioned him.

Possible, who knows. But Schmeling is a genuine ATG, too.

George Godfrey, for all intents and purposes, was pretty much the premiere black contender at the time. He was gigantic for the time period being 6'4" and well over 240 pounds. He wasn't really a polished boxer or had great skills to speak of, but his knockout rate was greater than Jack Dempsey's...and mind you, this was a time when decisions and no contests were often commonplace. He was the IBU Heavyweight champion near the end of his career, and had taken on the likes of Langford and many other great black men who were generally ducked.

Before Tunney had became champion, the list of Godfrey's victims is like a who's who of boxing history....Tiny Jim Herman, Larry Gains, Bearcat Wright, Fred Fulton, Tut Jackson, Jack Renault, Bill Tate, and he even held Sam Langford to a draw in his second fight...sure Sharkey and Schmeling were more qualified for a title shot than him, but Godfrey was in the top 10.

From time to time, the Godfrey thing come up even though it has absolutely no merit.
Godfrey was never the #1 challenger for the heavyweight title when Tunney was the champion. It's that simple.
I don't see how it can argued that Tunney ducked Sharkey either.
Tunney agreed to fight the winner of Sharkey-Dempsey. Dempsey won, so Tunney fought Dempsey.
After that, Tunney defended the title against Heeney, who was the most worthy challenger. Heeney had beat Risko and had a draw with Sharkey. Godfrey lost to both Risko and Sharkey, Risko beat Sharkey.
Tunney beat Heeney easily.

Schmeling was not even a contender when Tunney retired.

Tunney had at least 17 fights at heavyweights in his career. A few of these wins were against tomato cans, but his career at heavyweight is much, much more impressive than Foster or Jones.

Where to rank him at heavyweight is arguable, but he certainly deserves to be rated above the mid-level heavyweight champions like Sharkey or Schmeling or Charles.

HomicideHenry wrote:George Godfrey, for all intents and purposes, was pretty much the premiere black contender at the time.

The premiere black contender: yes.
The premiere contender: no.

In 1927 Sharkey was arguably the most qualified contender. Schmeling popped onto the scene only in 1929.

Ambling Alp wrote: After that, Tunney defended the title against Heeney, who was the most worthy challenger.

Please cite one contemporary report that would confirm this. At the time, people weren't thrilled with Heeney at all. He was an OK challenger, but the up and coming man was clearly Jack Sharkey.