BoxRec

Hey this seemed interesting to do some comparing of eras. Two guys who did very well but came up a bit short in championship quests (based on in the ring events) and two guys who became champion at a time when it might have been easier to get the job done.

Young beats Foreman and from what some say beat Ali...but can't beat Lewis? Or can he? Norton does well with Ali but can't keep up with Bowe? Who makes it to the next round? The two actual champions? Or the also ran's from another era? One of each?

I thought this set of matchups was more competitive than switching the names around but others may feel differently.

Good post.

I don't think Lewis would want to take a fight with somebody like Young, because he would be unlikely to look good in winning. I see this as being a clear unanimous decision win for Lewis, by about 8 rounds to 4, in what would be a pretty boring fight.

Norton-Bowe is also a very interesting matchup. Bowe is pretty easy to hit, but has a good chin. Norton's chin does not stand up well to big hitters, but Bowe's power is not up there with Foreman and Shavers. I can't see Bowe being stopped, but there is a real chance that Norton would be. If it goes to points it could be a close decision either way. On their best nights I see Bowe taking the decision.

Lewis-Bowe is a very interesting matchup. If they had fought in 1993, I think Bowe would have stopped Lewis in the early rounds, after possibly visiting the canvas himself. If we are talking prime for prime, a 1997-2001 version of Lewis is more cautious, and would avoid getting drawn into a brawl. I see Bowe taking a lot of punishment in this fight (he had poor defense and Lewis had good power), and eventually the referee steps in to stop the fight around round 7.

Young and Norton never met Ali at his best. I would favor both 90's fighters. If Bowe can war with Holyfield why can't he beat Norton?

Norton wouldn't be laying on the inside going toe to toe with Riddick like Holy did in their first fight. He'd be employing his superior speed and quicker jab to get in an out, like Evander did with success in the rematch and part of the rubber match (which Holyfield would have won by knockout if he hadn't had hepatitis C) The more I rewatch of Bowe the less impressed I am of him. He had a great night in the first Holyfield matchup but beyond that looked more like a pedestrian clubber.

I see Lewis beating Young in a very close fight.

Norton-Lewis I see as 50/50. Lennox never faced a fighter the calibre of a prime Norton and his jab/awkward style/defense would give Lennox fits, plus Norton had much better stamina. Lewis had the punching power to turn out the lights though. In a 4 fight series I see each fighter winning two.

Bowe's career isn't exactly overwhelming, but Norton isn't as good as Holyfield and I don't know that Norton can take Bowe's punch. I'm not ruling out Norton out boxing Bowe, but it would be a challenge, and I would favor Bowe.

Bowe would destroy Norton and Frazier. Too much size and his attack was relentless.

Elton John wrote:Bowe would destroy Norton and Frazier. Too much size and his attack was relentless.

??? Are we talking about the same person??

I don't think putting the words "relentless" and "Riddick Bowe" in the same sentence is gramatically possible . . .

I think Young is competitive in ultimately losing to Lewis. He beat Ali on my card & schooled Foreman, but both of those opponents were past their best. Still, Young was clever & had guile. The prime Ali would look bad defeating him & even though I would favour a prime Foreman to knock him out, I wouldn't be making that match-up if I were handling Foreman's career, just in case.

As for Bowe-Norton, I see that as less competitve. I disagree Bowe's chin is credible, the way he collapsed & stumbled about from a single Holyfield left hook was laughable. However, I don't question his heart, or his stamina at the top of his game. Norton was most effective coming forward & here he gets knocked out. Bowe just had too much power & too many tools not to land on Norton at some point, & when he does, I'm betting on him to finish the job. Probably early in the fight, too.

As for Bowe-Frazier, that is one tough call in my book. Bowe doesn't hit like Foreman but he can punch better than Bonavena (a fight for which Frazier is dramatically over-criticised, he was a complete rookie & dominated the rematch). Bowe starts quick like Foreman & is better at making his punches land & count. He may have enough power to bounce Frazier early.

On the other hand, Frazier's left hook is ten times what Holyfield's is & Bowe sure ain't putting him out for the count (no one ever did) so if the ref allows Frazier to wade through some hairy early moments, he can really hurt Bowe upstairs & down. It could go either way I think.

You can't judge a fighter on one career performance (Buster Douglas anyone?)

Bowe had a wide open defense and his stamina in both Holyfield II and III, Golota I and II, Tubbs, Coatzer etc. was nothing to write home about, and in fact not very good. He had a good chin but as Evander and Golota showed could be cracked. Norton had a better jab, a better defense, better speed, and better stamina. The one thing Bowe has on Norton is a couple of inches height-wise, about 10-15 lbs (if we are talking a peak Bowe), and a better chin. I would say their punching power is about equal. Norton's overhand right would be landing on Riddick all night long.

Decagon wrote:Meh. You're comparing two of the best fighters of the 1990s with two guys that would struggle to make the top five of the 1970s. Norton gets splattered by Bowe, and Young eats Lewis's jab all night.

Decagon...sometimes you over romanticize the champions just because they achieved the title, which of course both Bowe and Lewis did...except they managed to avoid each other to complete the mission. Avoidance of each other is something Young and Norton did not do though they fell a bit short in the "achieved championship" dept at least based on ring events. Though some would say they both defeated the sitting champion.

This is not the simple slam dunk as you might have us believe.

However on another note your consistency with short, terse and seemingly grumpy comments does offer comfort for many, providing faith that though some things in life can be unpredictable and unstable, other aspects of life can be touchstones of bedrock dependability. Making for a universe that can be reassureing and predictable within certain measureable parameters.

Bowe didn't just have one great fluke night, like Douglas, he gave a peak Holyfield two very competitive fights. I thought Holyfield won, but I don't see that Holyfield-Bowe II is any less close than Ali-Norton II.

He probably doesn't beat a healthy Holyfield in the third fight, but I don't know how healthy Bowe was by then, either.

Norton has to show me he can take Bowe's punch before we can talk about him winning a decision. Norton can box, but I don't see that he's a better boxer than Holyfield.

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What can I say that would make Ali-Young 1976 less of a big deal to people? How would Jimmy Young at 230 lbs, 34 years old, fresh off a Joe Frazier trilogy do against a 28 year old 210-ish lbs Ali? You certainly wouldn't need judges for that one, you might not even need ring card girls. I don't think Lewis would have a particularly easy time with him, but I don't see Young winning a decision.

dempseyfire wrote: He'd be employing his superior speed and quicker jab to get in an out, like Evander did with success in the rematch and part of the rubber match (which Holyfield would have won by knockout if he hadn't had hepatitis C)

Hepatitis A, not C... Big difference.

Novermber 13 1992 Bowe beats Norton and Young after that it gets interesting. I agree that Bowe was lucky in the third fight with Holyfield and Golotta gave Bowe a hiding. After 1993 Norton and Young would probably win but the Bowe November 13 1992 beats these guys.

Decagon wrote:I could just as easily accuse you of over-romanticizing heavyweights of the 1970s.

Actually you could just as easily accuse me of creating the universe in all it's starry splendor, or having assassinated Abraham Lincoln. But your burden of proof would be on a different level than the charges I have put forward which have sufficient and readily available empircal proof as back up.

Decagon wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:But your burden of proof would be on a different level than the charges I have put forward which have sufficient and readily available empircal proof as back up.

Must've missed that one. I picked Bowe because Norton usually lost to guys who could punch. I picked Lewis because Young kind of sucked when he wasn't being chased.

Bowe had heavy hands but not was on the level of Foreman or Shavers.

Norton also beat guys who could punch as well. The whole "Norton always loses to punchers" argument is completely overblown.

Bowe's a very good, but not unreal puncher, in the league of Foreman. However, what he does better than Foreman is target his shots. His delivery is more precise. Look at how many times Foreman misses Frazier in their first fight. Bowe would never wing that bad.

Norton isn't going to bull Bowe around or win the clinches. He can knock Bowe down, but I have a hard time believing he can put Bowe out. Norton is limited going backward, he won't outbox Bowe for twelve rounds, nowhere near elusive enough. He has to fight coming forward & against the bigger, stronger, hard-hitting Bowe, he doesn't stand up to that punishment IMO.

Bowe TKO5

dempseyfire wrote:

Decagon wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:But your burden of proof would be on a different level than the charges I have put forward which have sufficient and readily available empircal proof as back up.

Must've missed that one. I picked Bowe because Norton usually lost to guys who could punch. I picked Lewis because Young kind of sucked when he wasn't being chased.

Bowe had heavy hands but not was on the level of Foreman or Shavers.

Norton also beat guys who could punch as well. The whole "Norton always loses to punchers" argument is completely overblown.

Like Who? Quarry?

Jerry could punch, but not along the lines of a Riddick Bowe.

Bowe stops Norton inside of 3 and Lewis pitches a shutout over Young.

The matchups in reverse would be more competetive. Young could give Bowe some trouble and Lewis may give way to Norton more than Bowe would.

But none of these contenders are going to beat Bowe,Lewis, Holyfield or even Tyson on their best night.

Bowe didn't really throw straight punches other than his jab. He preferred an overhand right and infighting.

markl wrote:Bowe didn't really throw straight punches other than his jab. He preferred an overhand right and infighting.

True.

Although I think you understate Young's performance against Lewis. No way is he losing twelve or fifteen rounds back-to-back.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

markl wrote:Bowe didn't really throw straight punches other than his jab. He preferred an overhand right and infighting.

True.

Although I think you understate Young's performance against Lewis. No way is he losing twelve or fifteen rounds back-to-back.

Pretty damn close to it. Lewis wouldn't fight aggressively against Young. He would cautiously jab and make Jimmy come to him. I can't envision a scenario where that fight is competetive.

He had life-&-death with Kenny Norton, nearly shut Ron Lyle out (twice) beat Muhammad Ali (despite what the judges said) & handsomely embarressed George Foreman...& he's nearly shut out against Lennox Lewis?

Don't get me wrong, I don't envision Young winning. Ultimately, Lewis' size, range & skill-set IS going to be too much. But he's so damn slow next to Young, & doesn't have half the wit or ingenuity that a prime Young had. Overall Lewis is the superior fighter, & his size seals the deal, but while the decision may never be in serious doubt, this is no embarressment.

Keep in mind an ancient Evander Holyfield (2nd time around) very nearly outpointed a prime Lewis.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:He had life-&-death with Kenny Norton, nearly shut Ron Lyle out (twice) beat Muhammad Ali (despite what the judges said) & handsomely embarressed George Foreman...& he's nearly shut out against Lennox Lewis?

Don't get me wrong, I don't envision Young winning. Ultimately, Lewis' size, range & skill-set IS going to be too much. But he's so damn slow next to Young, & doesn't have half the wit or ingenuity that a prime Young had. Overall Lewis is the superior fighter, & his size seals the deal, but while the decision may never be in serious doubt, this is no embarressment.

Keep in mind an ancient Evander Holyfield (2nd time around) very nearly outpointed a prime Lewis.

I am not as enamored with LL as many others are. But this is probably the worst matchup in Heavyweight history for Jimmy Young. The people that gave Lewis trouble did it with aggression.

The people that Young shined against came at him. Maybe not a shutout but if Jimmy young won more than 2 rounds I would call it an upset.

Lewis is slow next to almost anybody. But his cautious approach camouflages that. I can't seee Young getting real brave and even is he does. He has nothing to attack with.

Easy, easy win for Lennox. Like I said, Norton could hjave given Lewis trouble and Young would fair better against Bowe. But if LL fought Jimmy Young 100 times, not one of them would be close.

Are you certain Lewis wouldn't go for the kill, though? Probably he wouldn't, but I wouldn't put money on that. He may be entitled to think Young can't hurt him but with that right hand he can certainly hurt Young.

He hunted Golota down, a far more formidable puncher. It's conceivable he could be suckered into pursuing Young, maybe not for the entirety of the bout, but at some point perhaps. Young may outsmart him, he was a very clever fighter. I think it's a competitive fight, but it looks like we've reached an impasse on this one, so I'll let it slide.

Incidentally, what's your take on Bowe-Frazier?

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Are you certain Lewis wouldn't go for the kill, though? Probably he wouldn't, but I wouldn't put money on that. He may be entitled to think Young can't hurt him but with that right hand he can certainly hurt Young.

He hunted Golota down, a far more formidable puncher. It's conceivable he could be suckered into pursuing Young, maybe not for the entirety of the bout, but at some point perhaps. Young may outsmart him, he was a very clever fighter. I think it's a competitive fight, but it looks like we've reached an impasse on this one, so I'll let it slide.

Incidentally, what's your take on Bowe-Frazier?

Bowe is such a tough guy for these fights. For about 2 years I would take Riddick. The version that first took the title off of Holyfield would have been hell for Joe. He was a tremendous infighter for his size and I see him winning a decision.

Any other version of Bowe gets eaten alive. A bit of a cop out. More often then not, I would lean towards Frazier.

markl wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:He had life-&-death with Kenny Norton, nearly shut Ron Lyle out (twice) beat Muhammad Ali (despite what the judges said) & handsomely embarressed George Foreman...& he's nearly shut out against Lennox Lewis?

Don't get me wrong, I don't envision Young winning. Ultimately, Lewis' size, range & skill-set IS going to be too much. But he's so damn slow next to Young, & doesn't have half the wit or ingenuity that a prime Young had. Overall Lewis is the superior fighter, & his size seals the deal, but while the decision may never be in serious doubt, this is no embarressment.

Keep in mind an ancient Evander Holyfield (2nd time around) very nearly outpointed a prime Lewis.

I am not as enamored with LL as many others are. But this is probably the worst matchup in Heavyweight history for Jimmy Young. The people that gave Lewis trouble did it with aggression.

The people that Young shined against came at him. Maybe not a shutout but if Jimmy young won more than 2 rounds I would call it an upset.

Lewis is slow next to almost anybody. But his cautious approach camouflages that. I can't seee Young getting real brave and even is he does. He has nothing to attack with.

Easy, easy win for Lennox. Like I said, Norton could hjave given Lewis trouble and Young would fair better against Bowe. But if LL fought Jimmy Young 100 times, not one of them would be close.

You know, I had the same opinion. But I recently re-watched Lewis-Mavoric. How Lennox was huffing and puffing by the 6th and letting a very sloppy (yet strong chinned and tough) challenger make it a competetive fight. Then I remember Lewis getting tired in Holyfield II, Mercer, Tucker etc. Lennox had heart and could pull out some flurries late but he still as a big guy got pretty tired late in fights (of course, his opponents had to make it to the late rounds first)

Jimmy Young, on the other hand, upped the activity as fights went on. He was so relaxed and comfortable in the ring, he could've excelled in the era of 20 rounders. Lewis wasn't (usually) the aggresive come forward attacker in the mold of Foreman and Lyle. Lewis would certaintly win the first 5 rounds or so by being more active as Young would be playing defense. But when Young starts putting in sharp right hand counters and working Lennox's body when Lewis holds Young in-close (something Heavyweights no longer do as they enjoy to rest in the clinch rather than work) in the middle-late rounds, how would Lewis respond?? Lennox's jab (over-rated BTW, Lyle actually had a stiffer harder jab) wouldn't just keep Young at bay all night. Young of course doesn't have the power to hurt Lewis but his body work could affect you.

This fight is more interesting the more I think about it.