BoxRec

1. Larry Holmes
2. Euesbio Pedrosa
3. Fighting Harada
4. Gene Tunney
5. Azhuma Nelson
6. Ezzard Charles
7. Jim Jeffries
8. Miguel Canto
9. Sumbu Kalambay
10. Mike Spinks
.........................there are others no doubt, but this is who came to my mind... comments anyone???...... 8)

The only one I don't agree with is your number 1. Holmes makes most top 5 rankings these days. I think he gets a fair rub.

One guy who seems to have plummeted during the 25 years I've been following the sport is Jack Dempsey. He barely makes top 10s these days and yet magazines in the 50s often saw a Louis-Dempsey match as the battle for supremacy in the division. Not that I agree necessarily but he seems underrated these days.

In the mid 1980s The Ring rated Dempsey at #5.

Since you added Michael Spinks, how about giving the Light-Heavyweight version of Michael Moorer a mention?

Not mentioned nearly enough amongst the great 175lbers.

I dont think Moorer did enough at 175 to make him a 'great' lightheavy champion....

Granted he wasn't there for his whole career or anything, but he blasted an awful lot of guys & was amazingly quick to steal the title.

Moorer could have been one of the best at 175. He had amazing power at the weight.

Spinks for me. He had a fantastic LHW reign but is remembered almost solely for his 90 seconds against Tyson.

Underrated champs include Mike McCallum, Winky Wright and Sumbu Kalambay, all members of the "who needs them club"

dr_devious wrote:Underrated champs include Mike McCallum, Winky Wright and Sumbu Kalambay, all members of the "who needs them club"

Mccallum almost made my list but just missed out, I think he does get quite a lot of credit these days while Kalambay and Mike Spinks are almost forgotten it seems, and when people talk of Spinks its usually the Tyson bout....

Overall a good list.
However, Holmes seems to get his due now. There are people who still don't realize how great he was, but most people seem to now.

In general, Ezzard Charles might not get the respect that he deserves. However, on this forum he certainly does.

Sumbu Kalambay? Say what? He simply wasn't that good. There are many fighters you could have picked ahead of him.

I totally agree with the comments about Michael Spinks. I am beginning to think that he is the most underrated fighter of all time. Many people just don't seem to have any idea of how good he was.

Some guys that could be added are Vincente Saldivar, Nino Benvenuti and Luis Rodriquez. All were from the "forgotten decade" of the 1960's. You seldom hear anyone talk about them.

Eddie Mustapha Muhammad would be another. Somehow, he isn't in the Hall of Fame.

Ambling Alp wrote:Overall a good list.
However, Holmes seems to get his due now. There are people who still don't realize how great he was, but most people seem to now.

In general, Ezzard Charles might not get the respect that he deserves. However, on this forum he certainly does.

Sumbu Kalambay? Say what? He simply wasn't that good. There are many fighters you could have picked ahead of him.

I totally agree with the comments about Michael Spinks. I am beginning to think that he is the most underrated fighter of all time. Many people just don't seem to have any idea of how good he was.

Some guys that could be added are Vincente Saldivar, Nino Benvenuti and Luis Rodriquez. All were from the "forgotten decade" of the 1960's. You seldom hear anyone talk about them.

Eddie Mustapha Muhammad would be another. Somehow, he isn't in the Hall of Fame.

Kalambay wasnt that good??.... have a look at the guys he beat.... he's the only guy who beat both a peak Herol Graham and Mike Mccallum amongst others.... he also beat Dewitt, Sims, Barkley.... his record reads like a whos who of the middle division of his era, .....your comment underlines my point about him being underrated I think....

Completely agree.

Kalambay was a superb fighter, and imo one of the best defensive boxers of all-time....He was the middleweight Canto as far as textbook skills go.

Turning pro when he was about 25 ensured he unfortunately didn't have a long prime or a great career per se plus being very hard done by in a decision against Kalule in 85 meant he never got onto the world stage till he was in his thirties.

The fluke Ko against Nunn seems to have destroyed his reputation beyond repair in the eyes of american fans that only saw him fight a few times.

Personally i think he would have defeated Nunn more often than not.

Audley Harrison - WBF Heavyweight Champion.

Arbachakov wrote:Completely agree.

Kalambay was a superb fighter, and imo one of the best defensive boxers of all-time....He was the middleweight Canto as far as textbook skills go.

Turning pro when he was about 25 ensured he unfortunately didn't have a long prime or a great career per se plus being very hard done by in a decision against Kalule in 85 meant he never got onto the world stage till he was in his thirties.

The fluke Ko against Nunn seems to have destroyed his reputation beyond repair in the eyes of american fans that only saw him fight a few times.

Personally i think he would have defeated Nunn more often than not.

I'd definately put him a level above Nunn despite their fight, Nunn just caught him cold when he was aging but if you look over their respective careers Kalambay was definately the better fighter....

I don't get why Spinks or Holmes are on the list, considering Michael is generally up there in the top 10, as is Holmes, in their weight classes where they did the most work (for Holmes its HW for Spinks LHW).

Tunney, Charles, Jeffries, I agree with.

There are alot, really, that you could make the case for. Not half bad a list, but I don't think it's right on the money.

silkov wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:Overall a good list.
However, Holmes seems to get his due now. There are people who still don't realize how great he was, but most people seem to now.

In general, Ezzard Charles might not get the respect that he deserves. However, on this forum he certainly does.

Sumbu Kalambay? Say what? He simply wasn't that good. There are many fighters you could have picked ahead of him.

I totally agree with the comments about Michael Spinks. I am beginning to think that he is the most underrated fighter of all time. Many people just don't seem to have any idea of how good he was.

Some guys that could be added are Vincente Saldivar, Nino Benvenuti and Luis Rodriquez. All were from the "forgotten decade" of the 1960's. You seldom hear anyone talk about them.

Eddie Mustapha Muhammad would be another. Somehow, he isn't in the Hall of Fame.

Kalambay wasnt that good??.... have a look at the guys he beat.... he's the only guy who beat both a peak Herol Graham and Mike Mccallum amongst others.... he also beat Dewitt, Sims, Barkley.... his record reads like a whos who of the middle division of his era, .....your comment underlines my point about him being underrated I think....

He beat a who's who of his era? First of all, his era wasn't that good. DeWitt, Robbie Sims? Are you really that impressed with those guys? Outside of McCallum Kalambay didn't do that much.

How about getting knocked out in the first round by Michael Nunn? That's pretty embarrassing no matter how you try to spin it.
He couldn't even beat Ayub Kalue who was ok but nothing special.

There are many, many, fighters that could be put on this list before Sumbu Kalambay. Why is he more underrated than Michael Nunn? How often does anyone talk about Nunn?

Ambling Alp wrote:

silkov wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:Overall a good list.
However, Holmes seems to get his due now. There are people who still don't realize how great he was, but most people seem to now.

In general, Ezzard Charles might not get the respect that he deserves. However, on this forum he certainly does.

Sumbu Kalambay? Say what? He simply wasn't that good. There are many fighters you could have picked ahead of him.

I totally agree with the comments about Michael Spinks. I am beginning to think that he is the most underrated fighter of all time. Many people just don't seem to have any idea of how good he was.

Some guys that could be added are Vincente Saldivar, Nino Benvenuti and Luis Rodriquez. All were from the "forgotten decade" of the 1960's. You seldom hear anyone talk about them.

Eddie Mustapha Muhammad would be another. Somehow, he isn't in the Hall of Fame.

Kalambay wasnt that good??.... have a look at the guys he beat.... he's the only guy who beat both a peak Herol Graham and Mike Mccallum amongst others.... he also beat Dewitt, Sims, Barkley.... his record reads like a whos who of the middle division of his era, .....your comment underlines my point about him being underrated I think....

He beat a who's who of his era? First of all, his era wasn't that good. DeWitt, Robbie Sims? Are you really that impressed with those guys? Outside of McCallum Kalambay didn't do that much.

How about getting knocked out in the first round by Michael Nunn? That's pretty embarrassing no matter how you try to spin it.
He couldn't even beat Ayub Kalue who was ok but nothing special.

There are many, many, fighters that could be put on this list before Sumbu Kalambay. Why is he more underrated than Michael Nunn? How often does anyone talk about Nunn?

His record speaks for itself, he fought guys like Mccallum and Graham that the other champs were avoiding and beat them, ....you cant do better than that, ....add to that Barkley who went on to be a 3 weight world champ and beat Hearns twice..... as for the Nunn loss that was at the edn of his career when he was close to 40 (or past it) ....you really going to hold that against him while ignoring his wins over Graham and Mccallum???..... who else beat a peak Mccallum??.... James Toney couldnt beat him clearly in three tries??.....

What about Jeffries, noones mentioned him, undefeated save for his defeat to Johnson, personally I think he would have had the beating of both Dempsey and Marciano but he's always had the Johnson fight held against him.... and the fact that fewer people have seen him fight than have seen Dempsey and Marciano...

Ambling Alp wrote:

silkov wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:Overall a good list.
However, Holmes seems to get his due now. There are people who still don't realize how great he was, but most people seem to now.

In general, Ezzard Charles might not get the respect that he deserves. However, on this forum he certainly does.

Sumbu Kalambay? Say what? He simply wasn't that good. There are many fighters you could have picked ahead of him.

I totally agree with the comments about Michael Spinks. I am beginning to think that he is the most underrated fighter of all time. Many people just don't seem to have any idea of how good he was.

Some guys that could be added are Vincente Saldivar, Nino Benvenuti and Luis Rodriquez. All were from the "forgotten decade" of the 1960's. You seldom hear anyone talk about them.

Eddie Mustapha Muhammad would be another. Somehow, he isn't in the Hall of Fame.

Kalambay wasnt that good??.... have a look at the guys he beat.... he's the only guy who beat both a peak Herol Graham and Mike Mccallum amongst others.... he also beat Dewitt, Sims, Barkley.... his record reads like a whos who of the middle division of his era, .....your comment underlines my point about him being underrated I think....

He beat a who's who of his era? First of all, his era wasn't that good. DeWitt, Robbie Sims? Are you really that impressed with those guys? Outside of McCallum Kalambay didn't do that much.

How about getting knocked out in the first round by Michael Nunn? That's pretty embarrassing no matter how you try to spin it.
He couldn't even beat Ayub Kalue who was ok but nothing special.

There are many, many, fighters that could be put on this list before Sumbu Kalambay. Why is he more underrated than Michael Nunn? How often does anyone talk about Nunn?

You're just talking like you barely even saw the man fight.Rubbishing opponents etc. without going into detail on style or what you perceive as flaws that would prevent him from being mentioned in an "underrated" fighter thread.Mentioning the Kalule fight is a prime example as i doubt anyone who has seen the fight would consider it a poor performance.

Even if you don't consider him to have had a great career(i dont and wouldnt have put him in my top tenand am a fan)he can still be called underrated and is well worth a mention.he has at least 5 fights against world class opposition that could be put up there as being among the great defensive performances alongside Locche vs Fuji, Whitaker vs Nelson, Pineda, Canto vs Vargas...

Moving the discussion on to other fighters though, i'd certainyl say kalambay is worth as much of a mention as an underachiever like Eddie Mustapha who you mentioned.I love Eddie as a stylist and he was also a very talented technician who made few defences, had some very good wins and performances and also some downright awful fights while still in his prime.His performance against Scott being one of the worst by a prime A level light heavy i've ever seen.

Then again Eddie has always been a fashionable fighter to claim would have been unbeatable if in shape, focused, dedicated, blah blah.One of those guys many like to give the benefit of the doubt every time and excuse every dire performance.

I've always found it interesting that the other underachiever of that era John conteh,despite being at least as talented as Eddie-and accomplishing just as much-is criticised far more heavily in general.

Conteh is another name worth mentioning actually.

Howard Winstone
Lionel Rose
Hiroyuki ebihara
Hilario Zapata
JUng-Koo Chang
Masao Ohba
Jiro Watanabe
Yoko Gushiken
Yuri Arbachakov

Most of the very good lighter weight fighters throughout history don't generate as much discussion as they should.

Arbachakov wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:

silkov wrote: Kalambay wasnt that good??.... have a look at the guys he beat.... he's the only guy who beat both a peak Herol Graham and Mike Mccallum amongst others.... he also beat Dewitt, Sims, Barkley.... his record reads like a whos who of the middle division of his era, .....your comment underlines my point about him being underrated I think....

He beat a who's who of his era? First of all, his era wasn't that good. DeWitt, Robbie Sims? Are you really that impressed with those guys? Outside of McCallum Kalambay didn't do that much.

How about getting knocked out in the first round by Michael Nunn? That's pretty embarrassing no matter how you try to spin it.
He couldn't even beat Ayub Kalue who was ok but nothing special.

There are many, many, fighters that could be put on this list before Sumbu Kalambay. Why is he more underrated than Michael Nunn? How often does anyone talk about Nunn?

You're just talking like you barely even saw the man fight.Rubbishing opponents etc. without going into detail on style or what you perceive as flaws that would prevent him from being mentioned in an "underrated" fighter thread.Mentioning the Kalule fight is a prime example as i doubt anyone who has seen the fight would consider it a poor performance.

Even if you don't consider him to have had a great career(i dont and wouldnt have put him in my top tenand am a fan)he can still be called underrated and is well worth a mention.he has at least 5 fights against world class opposition that could be put up there as being among the great defensive performances alongside Locche vs Fuji, Whitaker vs Nelson, Pineda, Canto vs Vargas...

Moving the discussion on to other fighters though, i'd certainyl say kalambay is worth as much of a mention as an underachiever like Eddie Mustapha who you mentioned.I love Eddie as a stylist and he was also a very talented technician who made few defences, had some very good wins and performances and also some downright awful fights while still in his prime.His performance against Scott being one of the worst by a prime A level light heavy i've ever seen.

Then again Eddie has always been a fashionable fighter to claim would have been unbeatable if in shape, focused, dedicated, blah blah.One of those guys many like to give the benefit of the doubt every time and excuse every dire performance.

I've always found it interesting that the other underachiever of that era John conteh,despite being at least as talented as Eddie-and accomplishing just as much-is criticised far more heavily in general.

Conteh is another name worth mentioning actually.

Howard Winstone
Lionel Rose
Hiroyuki ebihara
Hilario Zapata
JUng-Koo Chang
Masao Ohba
Jiro Watanabe
Yoko Gushiken
Yuri Arbachakov

Most of the very good lighter weight fighters throughout history don't generate as much discussion as they should.

I agree with everything youre saying here!...

First of all, I want to reply to Silkov's comment about Kalambay being almost 40 when he got knocked out in the first round by Nunn. He was only 32. This was 3 years before he beat the great Herol Graham. Kalambay was very close to his prime when he got knocked out by Nunn.

2nd, losing to Kalue isn't an embarrassment. But when you are saying that a guy is one of the most underrated fighters in history, then this has to count against him. Kalue wasn't a great fighter.

Kalambay's positives and negatives should be weighed when evaluating him. Obviously his two close fights with McCallum would be a positive. However, I can't see why wins over people like Doug DeWitt and Robbie Sims should mean much. They were very limited fighters. Iran Barkley is a nice win, but nothing spectaular. Barkley was a very inconsistent fighter who lost to a lot of people.

I'm not saying that Kalambay was a stiff or anything like that. He was obviously a good fighter. However, there is no way that he is one the top 10 underrated fighters in the more history of the sport. We are talking about a span of over 100 years here.

To me, Kalambay was one of several good but not great middleweights/super middleweights of the late 1980's and early 1990's. He certainly doesn't stand out as clearly the best of these guys.

As for Eddie Mustapha Muhammad- Well of course he has some negatives as well. However, a points loss to James Scott isn't nearly as bad a a first round knockout loss to Michael Nunn. Mustapha also beat Mathew Saad Muhammad who is in the Hall of Fame and Marvin Johnson who probably should be. He also had several nice wins against good contenders. Mustapha gave a prime Michael Spinks a tough fight as well. In another era, Mustapha Muhammad would have been a dominaint lightheavyweight champion for several year. When you at his entire career, it was a Hall of Fame type career.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Granted he wasn't there for his whole career or anything, but he blasted an awful lot of guys & was amazingly quick to steal the title.

You can't say Moorer is under-rated at light HW b.c his whole career is a "what if" . . .he fought NO real world class fighter at 175, and the WBO belt in 1990 was regarded as a garbage trinket.

I would concur with Nino Benvenuti . . . .fantastic middleweight champion, overlooked b/c he was sandwiched in between two other all time great 160 lbers Griffith and Monzon. Also his predecessor Joey Giardello . . .GREAT very tough fighter.

Did anyone mention Carlos Ortiz?

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Did anyone mention Carlos Ortiz?

That is one of the most underrated fighters...period

Also of underrated fighters, I include:

Johnny Dundee
Bob Montgomery
Luis Manuel Rodriguez
Curtis Cokes
Miguel "Happy" Lora
Victor Galindez
Brian Mitchell
Pone Kingpetch
John Henry Lewis
Maxie Rosenbloom
Tony DeMarco
Paul Pender

Ambling Alp wrote:First of all, I want to reply to Silkov's comment about Kalambay being almost 40 when he got knocked out in the first round by Nunn. He was only 32. This was 3 years before he beat the great Herol Graham. Kalambay was very close to his prime when he got knocked out by Nunn.

2nd, losing to Kalue isn't an embarrassment. But when you are saying that a guy is one of the most underrated fighters in history, then this has to count against him. Kalue wasn't a great fighter.

Kalambay's positives and negatives should be weighed when evaluating him. Obviously his two close fights with McCallum would be a positive. However, I can't see why wins over people like Doug DeWitt and Robbie Sims should mean much. They were very limited fighters. Iran Barkley is a nice win, but nothing spectaular. Barkley was a very inconsistent fighter who lost to a lot of people.

I'm not saying that Kalambay was a stiff or anything like that. He was obviously a good fighter. However, there is no way that he is one the top 10 underrated fighters in the more history of the sport. We are talking about a span of over 100 years here.

To me, Kalambay was one of several good but not great middleweights/super middleweights of the late 1980's and early 1990's. He certainly doesn't stand out as clearly the best of these guys.

As for Eddie Mustapha Muhammad- Well of course he has some negatives as well. However, a points loss to James Scott isn't nearly as bad a a first round knockout loss to Michael Nunn. Mustapha also beat Mathew Saad Muhammad who is in the Hall of Fame and Marvin Johnson who probably should be. He also had several nice wins against good contenders. Mustapha gave a prime Michael Spinks a tough fight as well. In another era, Mustapha Muhammad would have been a dominaint lightheavyweight champion for several year. When you at his entire career, it was a Hall of Fame type career.

Its well known that Kalambay was rumoured to be at least 5 years older than his offical age. As for his win over Graham, you seem to only be seeing their second fight in '92, Kalambay first beat Graham in '87 when both were at their peaks and Graham was unbeaten in 38 fights. Holding the Nunn fight against Kalambay is harsh, he got caught cold by a guy who at the time was reputed by some to be the best p4p in the world.
As for there being other fighters who could have made my underrated list I agree, fighters like Freddie Miller, Louis Kid Kaplan, Benny Bass etc are just a few who could make it, but my aim was to compose a list of fighter whom most people will recognise and that most people have seen, its pretty self explanatory really.....
And my main point is Kalambay does stand out as one of the best of his era, his record speaks for itself, he beat guys that the other guys avoided yet he gets no credit.... people go on about how good Mccallum and Graham were (and they were) but hardly anyone mentions the only guy who beat them both when they were in their primes, hence Kalambay belongs in my underrated list.... 8)