BoxRec

I"ve recently been debating some of my boxing buddies about fighters that drew the color line:Tunney,Dempsey,Leonard. Was there some racial motives for this? Perhaps. But how about the greatest black champion-Joe Louis? After the war things opened up for black fighters,but prior to that Louis only defended his title against J.H Lewis. I know Mike Jacobs put his matches together,but Joe never spoke up. If he could have fought Johnny Paycheck,he should have fought George Godfrey. And we all know Jack Johnson's history. Where was McVey,Jeanette and Langford for a title shot? He fights Ketchel,but not Langford. And Johnson could make his own deal. He almost lost his title to Jim Johnson in Paris.

I know this has been kicked around before,but since joining haven't seen it come up.

..mike jacobs drew the color line....not joe louis. louis would have beaten them anyway.

Johnson was pursued across continents for a title shot by Langford & McVey. People look at the record & say, "well, he fought them multiple times so that's fair enough." It wasn't. McVey lasted sixty rounds through three bouts with Johnson, at a time when he was a total rookie & Johnson was at the peak of his powers. After, when McVey matured into a credible contender, he avoided him.

Langford, McVey & Jeanette were all just too big a risk in Johnson's eyes. He was somewhat guilty of the same ducking he accused Jeffries & Burns of.

There's people on here who want that argument buried and never spoken of again, but fact is Jack Johnson, who some still consider the greatest heavyweight of all time, never faced Langford, Jeanette or McVey at there best. In my opinion, Langford would have beaten him, possibly even by knockout.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Johnson was pursued across continents for a title shot by Langford & McVey. People look at the record & say, "well, he fought them multiple times so that's fair enough." It wasn't. McVey lasted sixty rounds through three bouts with Johnson, at a time when he was a total rookie & Johnson was at the peak of his powers. After, when McVey matured into a credible contender, he avoided him.

Langford, McVey & Jeanette were all just too big a risk in Johnson's eyes. He was somewhat guilty of the same ducking he accused Jeffries & Burns of.

Johnson had big money offers to fight Langford, McVey and Jeanette. He skirted them as champion. It should be noted that Jack Johnson did once give another black fighter a title shot. The fighter was a journeyman anmed Jim Johnson ( No relation to Jack ), and the fight ended up as a dubious draw.

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Teery D
"Black on black violence was the desired aim of the society at the time but getting paid for it and earning acclaim? No chance.

Plus who would turn up for the fights? Joe Louis against a bunch of black guys would not bring in a crowd. So it was mixed-up a little, mostly white but then a bit of black. "

Who would have turned up to watch...boxing fans would have.

Kym

..robinson..yes, boxing fans fans would show up. however, the heavyweight championship, especially when boxing itself was a major sport, went well beyond the level of just boxing fans. it was then the one major biggest single event in sports. people who wouldn't go to any other boxing match, and others who would go to just a few title fights in other weight classes, went to heavyweight title fights, and even a few non-title ones....louis/baer, for instance. plus, louis transcended race to a bigger degree than had another fighter of his time.

louis against a lesser known black fighter, which so many were, as they weren't heavily promoted would not have drawn as well as he did against the white fighters of the day.

one poster here comments on louis "not speaking up"....try this for a scenario...."hey, uncle mike. there are some really good black fighters out there who might give me more trouble than the better known white guys. i'm a real big spender and always need money, but how about matching mer with one of them. we won't draw a huge gate even at low ticket prices, but what the hell......"

what louis did do was make the general public accept a black heavyweight champion. this led to the situation we had later, when an ali frazier fight set new records for interest well beyond just the boxing world, and when black fighters now fight each other for huge live gates and pay-per-view millions of dollars. it's a more enlightened society now, at least in this respect, than it was then.

..and, even then, there were those who paid huge attention to louis' fights in the hope that some white guy would come along and knock him on his ass. black vs. white was also part of that less enlightened society .

Fights between two black boxers, especially if one or both had not been seen by the local fans was a risky propositions for promoters in the 1900s, 10s, 20s. White audiences did not have any patience for any bout that was slow, like they did for two white fighters. I don't know how many times in my record research, that I've read where two black boxers were thrown out of the ring for "stalling, and the bout was declared a no-contest.

In those racist days the perception amongst many people was that blacks had a yellow streak (i.e, showed cowardice). A cautious boxing match between two black boxers would reinforce that myth in the eyes of the white fans who were buying the tickets.

Joe Louis could do no wrong, could he? For the last few years we've heard a lot about how Johnson did this, how Johnson set his own color line and didn't give his fellow black fighters a shot at the title, and how disgraceful this was. Yet that criticism shouldn't apply to Louis.

The response seems to be that Louis set an example, broke ground, and so it was okay. But one could say the same for Johnson, no? Yet that excuse doesn't satisfy any of Johnson's critics.

And, be clear, I've defended Johnson for this. I don't think he did anything particularly wrong, and perhaps Louis didn't either, though he was a bit more popular than Johnson and might have had some more room to operate. But I love that Johnson has taken so much heat for this, while Louis gets another pass.

Who would you say Louis ducked?

There's a distinction between not meeting an opponent & openly ducking them. Louis also had his reign interrupted by service. & yet, on your card Johnson didn't duck any fighters whilst champion?

Which of those fighters pursued Louis internationally, campaigning to fight him?

For the record, it's pretty clear McVey had a number of more fights than his boxrec record shows by the time he met Johnson. He was recognized as the top HW in California and you don't get that recognition as a 6 fight veteran. He probably had at least 20 fights by the time he fought Johnson in 1903. And Johnson DOMINATED him 3 times, whereas McVey fought competetively and was able to beat or draw with all the other top black HWs.

Johnson would've beaten Langford and McVey anytime prior to 1913.

Also, during Louis's reign, the top HWs were WHITE and not black. Some people don't seem to want to believe it but it's true. Thompson lost to Pastor and Valentino, TWICE. Sheppard never put together a decent winning streak, very hot and cold fighter. Bivins and Ray put together their winning streaks while Louis was in the military. When Louis got out, Ray and Bivins both lost to Walcott and Louis faced Walcott for the title.

Now would it have been better if Louis had defended against the likes of Sheppard and Murray instead of Paycheck and Roper? Sure, but throughout his reign Louis defended against the true top contenders (Godoy, Pastor, Conn, Baer, Nova, Galento etc.)

Louis actually knocked out Toles in 1935.

I Feel Fine wrote:Joe Louis could do no wrong, could he? For the last few years we've heard a lot about how Johnson did this, how Johnson set his own color line and didn't give his fellow black fighters a shot at the title, and how disgraceful this was. Yet that criticism shouldn't apply to Louis.

The response seems to be that Louis set an example, broke ground, and so it was okay. But one could say the same for Johnson, no? Yet that excuse doesn't satisfy any of Johnson's critics.

And, be clear, I've defended Johnson for this. I don't think he did anything particularly wrong, and perhaps Louis didn't either, though he was a bit more popular than Johnson and might have had some more room to operate. But I love that Johnson has taken so much heat for this, while Louis gets another pass.

Louis fought John Henry Lewis and Jersey Joe Walcott for the heavy crown. He also fought Ezzard Charles..At least he fought more black fighers for the title than Johnson...At least 4 times

You could even make a case against Patterson when he was avoiding Folley,Machen,and Liston. I remember during that time they were comparing Patterson with Johnson when he didn't give McVey,Jeanette,or Langford a title shot.

Decagon wrote:

dagosd2000 wrote:You could even make a case against Patterson when he was avoiding Folley,Machen,and Liston. I remember during that time they were comparing Patterson with Johnson when he didn't give McVey,Jeanette,or Langford a title shot.

Black fighters he faced while champion:

• Tommy Jackson
• Sonny Liston

White fighters he faced while champion:

• Pete Rademacher
• Roy Harris
• Brian London
• Ingemar Johansson x2
• Tom McNeely

Hmph. Seven white fighters in a row does seem fishy.

To Patterson's credit he forced out D'amato to defend against Liston. Have you ever seen Patterson/Jackson II? Jackson starts acting wierd(acting silly) during the bout. I know he was institutionalized at times for mental problems. This fight shouldn't have been made.

Decagon wrote:Their first fight was reportedly close, and Jackson beat Ezzard Charles twice.

He always fought like that, kind of like an early version of Emmanuel Augustus, minus the drug use and dives.

The 1st fight was close. But after that is when Jackson had a breakdown. This was a period in Patterson's career when he was considered to be a cheese champ.

Louis' title reign was five years longer than Johnson's and he defended his title 16 more times. He had many more opportunities to defend his title against black opponents. But, Louis had two more defenses against black fighters than Johnson did. Yet Jack Johnson has received quite a bit of criticism for this in the past few years. Louis has received none.

So, again, I submit that if Louis gets a pass on this, why doesn't Johnson? Perhaps its because Louis gets no scrutiny... on anything. Louis could do no wrong.

As someone who lives near Oxnard, California, I have tried
to find early bouts of Sam McVey with some success. While
McVey may have had some unrecorded bouts before fighting
Jack Johnson for the first time, it appears that he was a very
young fighter in 1902 and 1903. At the time, McVey's manager
was an Oxnard businessman named Billy (or Billey) Roche.

It should also be pointed out that there was a well-known
boxing man named Billy Roche, who was a referee and
matchmaker. In other words, it looks like there were
TWO boxing figures named Billy Roche at the time.

I do not think that McVey matched up well with Johnson
in terms of boxing styles. In addition, Johnson had
more skill and experience than McVey in 1903 and
1904. It should be pointed out that Billey Roche
didn't have any apparent boxing managerial
experience before hooking up with McVey.

- Chuck Johnston

Maybe the colour line will be reversed now?
Todays US heavyweights could maintain their countries dominance of the top prize by drawing the line against resurgent European heavies.

Decagon wrote: He always fought like that, kind of like an early version of Emmanuel Augustus, minus the drug use and dives.

Thank you for that. You know one of those descriptions that just conjure up this mental image...?

Plus it made me spray coffee out of my nose (in my defence, I *was* drinking it at the time).

Chuck1052 wrote:As someone who lives near Oxnard, California, I have tried
to find early bouts of Sam McVey with some success. While
McVey may have had some unrecorded bouts before fighting
Jack Johnson for the first time, it appears that he was a very
young fighter in 1902 and 1903. At the time, McVey's manager
was an Oxnard businessman named Billy (or Billey) Roche.

It should also be pointed out that there was a well-known
boxing man named Billy Roche, who was a referee and
matchmaker. In other words, it looks like there were
TWO boxing figures named Billy Roche at the time.

I do not think that McVey matched up well with Johnson
in terms of boxing styles. In addition, Johnson had
more skill and experience than McVey in 1903 and
1904. It should be pointed out that Billey Roche
didn't have any apparent boxing managerial
experience before hooking up with McVey.

- Chuck Johnston

Sam McVey was often used by Johnson as a sparring partner. In many of the ringside photos of the Willard fight you can see Sam cheering Johnson on. His most memorable fight was a 49 KO loss to Joe Jeanette. Sam started fast. He had Joe down something like 20 times but Joe rallied to stop Sam.

More than being just a spectator, Sam McVey was a second for
Jack Johnson when the latter lost his World Heavyweight Title to
Jess Willard.

- Chuck Johnston