BoxRec

Ok guys how do you think this fight would play out..woud Bugner have the size and skills to upset Foreman who is fresh from getting of the canvas versus Lyle only after having a year of from losing his title.

Bugner who has faced Ali and Frazier is gunning to be the UK hopes at bringing the crown back to its home land. Foreman is standing in his way.

Joe Bugner - 6'4, 226lb
George Foreman - 6'3, 220lb


Kym

Decagon wrote:Foreman by death.

i have to agree.foreman was a monster and i see bugner to be solid enough
and dumb enough to stand in there and get murdered.

Foreman was actually 6'4 & a little heavier when he came back after the Ali-induced lay-off. Around 225-230lbs.

I am a massive Foreman fan (watching his victory over Michael Moorer as a 10-year-old kid kickstarted my interest in this sport) but there's no getting around his wavering focus & poor performances circa 76-77. I think had he defended against Lyle prior to Zaire, he would have KO'd Lyle with no more trouble than he did Norton. I don't see him being floored twice & nearly KO'd. I don't see him taking five rounds to do away with an overweight & totally shot Frazier. Ali's victory ruined him as a fighter.

That said, at this same point, Bugner wasn't terribly active or setting the world alight. Between 75 & 77, he lost a wide decision to Ali, & a close one to Lyle, & murdered Richard Dunn in between.

Not too bad, but still not enough to get him home against even a slipping George Foreman.

KO4.

The false conception that anyone who could box and move, would defeat Foreman, is just that. FALSE.

Though Bugner went the distance twice with Ali, and had defeated such names as Henry Cooper, Richard Dunne, and lost narrowly to Ron Lyle, I don't know if he could have stood up to the Foreman of post 1974, as Foreman was a man posessed and threw caution to the wind and showed complete disregard for the rules [watch the Toronto Five exhibition and you'll see what I mean].

Foreman would have came to really hurt Bugner. And I think he would have too. All respect to Aussie Joe...I don't see him winning, even if he was on his bicycle the whole night, Foreman would have caught him and hit him everywhere he wanted to until someone stepped in or Bugner collapsed.

"...[watch the Toronto Five exhibition and you'll see what I mean]..." - HH

I've not seen those fights, or heard anyone mention Foreman was guilty of fouling in them.

Enlighten me.

Foreman pushed some of his opponents and hit them and their managers even after the fights were declared over, there was quite a few scuffles in the ring between Foreman, his opponents, team Foreman and his opponents team.

All the while Foreman was taunting and cussing at Ali, who was ringside who kept begging and pleading to Foreman's opponents to say on the ropes and rope a dope, to wear Foreman out. Unfortunately, none of those men, had the toughness or powers of recovery like Ali, as they were all banged up and blasted out of there.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Foreman was actually 6'4 & a little heavier when he came back after the Ali-induced lay-off. Around 225-230lbs.

I am a massive Foreman fan (watching his victory over Michael Moorer as a 10-year-old kid kickstarted my interest in this sport) but there's no getting around his wavering focus & poor performances circa 76-77. I think had he defended against Lyle prior to Zaire, he would have KO'd Lyle with no more trouble than he did Norton. I don't see him being floored twice & nearly KO'd. I don't see him taking five rounds to do away with an overweight & totally shot Frazier. Ali's victory ruined him as a fighter.

That said, at this same point, Bugner wasn't terribly active or setting the world alight. Between 75 & 77, he lost a wide decision to Ali, & a close one to Lyle, & murdered Richard Dunn in between.

Not too bad, but still not enough to get him home against even a slipping George Foreman.

KO4.

I strongly disagree about Foreman 76-77. Lyle would've given Foreman a tough fight at any time in his career, and George looked downright awesome vs Dennis, Frazier II (the best he'd ever look IMO), and LeDoux. He looked very different in the Young fight . . .was MUCH less active. I don't know if it was the heat or what.

In any case, Foreman wipes the floor with Bugner in 76 or any other time-frame.

Foreman... obviously.

Bugner might survive a few rounds but this is exactly the sort of match where he would turn up in survival mode. Foreman, easily.

"I strongly disagree about Foreman 76-77. Lyle would've given Foreman a tough fight at any time in his career, and George looked downright awesome vs Dennis, Frazier II (the best he'd ever look IMO), and LeDoux. He looked very different in the Young fight . . .was MUCH less active. I don't know if it was the heat or what.

In any case, Foreman wipes the floor with Bugner in 76 or any other time-frame." - DempseyFire

No kidding. You thought his return match with Frazier was the best he'd ever looked? That's pretty bold IMO. Keep in mind the Frazier he met in Jamaica was a significantly better version than the one he met in the States. The result? Far less convincing. It was an inferior Frazier but Foreman, whilst never being in trouble, took a long time to put an old man away.

Dino Dennis & Scott LeDoux were OK fighters but at no point would they have been able to hang with a George Foreman. Ron Lyle was one of the better contenders of the mid-to-late 70's but IMO he is not in the class of an all-timer like Foreman, & the man coming off those victories over Roman & Norton I don't think would've ever been so troubled. Foreman lacked confidence & was ring-rusted when he met Lyle. I think the real Foreman doesn't taste the canvas in knocking Lyle out. Of course he was outclassed by Jimmy Young, & that would always be a possibility, however I think the earlier Foreman is strong & fast enough to get the job done against Young more often than not.

George Foreman was never the same fighter after losing to Muhammad Ali in Zaire, & IMO failed to show in subsequent fights the same confidence, energy or urgency in disposing of opponents. He was on the slide.

I do see Bugner losing, but I also see him going the ten rounds.

I think Bugner is able to flick his jab well enough and even to flurry at times, but ultimately it is Foremans stalking, power and harder jab that gets him the nod at the end of most rounds.

Say Bugner eats a hard Foreman shot in the earlier rounds, it is after this hat Bugner has greater respect for the former champion and starts clinching and running more. Making this a some what un-eventful and boring fight. Foreman gets frustrated at Bugners antics and survival fighting, even though he is clearly ahead. Bugner is able to land cheaky and fast shots randomly, but Foreman is digs hard hooks and crosses to Bugners torso and belly.

Foreman wins nearly every round.

Kym

This might have ended Bugner's career a little earlier/

Robinson wrote:Ok guys how do you think this fight would play out..woud Bugner have the size and skills to upset Foreman who is fresh from getting of the canvas versus Lyle only after having a year of from losing his title.

Bugner who has faced Ali and Frazier is gunning to be the UK hopes at bringing the crown back to its home land. Foreman is standing in his way.

Joe Bugner - 6'4, 226lb
George Foreman - 6'3, 220lb


Kym

Foreman would have killed him.

Foreman "killed" stationary targets, and in general had some competition when his opponent could move and box. Bugner could move and had a decent jab. He would have given George some trouble but probably would have faded and lost a decision.

mercman wrote:

Foreman "killed" stationary targets, and in general had some competition when his opponent could move and box. Bugner could move and had a decent jab. He would have given George some trouble but probably would have faded and lost a decision.

Agreed. Bugner was mobile for a big man, very durable and had fast hands. Foreman did best against smaller, 'come forward' fighters - like Joe Frazier. Nobody else wiped Bugner out easily and I don't think Foreman would. I see him being able to keep Foreman at bay to go the distance.

And actually, I think the Frazier that Foreman beat was not a peak Frazier. A prime Frazier probably would have performed somewhat better against Foreman because of his constant bobbing and weaving, and the angles he presented as he moved forward. He’d probably still lose 8 out of 10 against Foreman, but I just wanted to clarify that I don’t think Frazier was exactly a stationary target when he was in his prime.

mercman wrote:

I just wanted to clarify that I don’t think Frazier was exactly a stationary target when he was in his prime

Where do I say Frazier was stationary? Look what I wrote. I said he was a 'come forward' fighter, which he was.

merc, I was refering to my original statement where I said that george killed stationary targets, which implied that Frazier was stationary. I was clarifying my own comment.

pretty much with decagon on this one.
around 1971 bugner fought larry middleton and lost a wide decision. i saw that one and i recall middleton liked to come forward and could bang a bit - he broke joes jaw in fact - in that way he was a smaller version of foreman. george wins by stoppage though in the later rounds as bugner's
best asset was his ability to take a decent punch with little detrimental effect.

harrygreb wrote:pretty much with decagon on this one.
around 1971 bugner fought larry middleton and lost a wide decision. i saw that one and i recall middleton liked to come forward and could bang a bit - he broke joes jaw in fact - in that way he was a smaller version of foreman. george wins by stoppage though in the later rounds as bugner's
best asset was his ability to take a decent punch with little detrimental effect.

Yes, Bugner had a safety-first style and a great chin but he could be hurt. That punch that Shavers caught him with didn't look devastating but, Joe went down, delayed action, like he'd been shot. His legs just collapsed under him. Of course Shavers WAS a huge puncher and Bugner had been inactive but Bugner was hurt. The fight was stopped on a cut but no way was Bugner going 10 rounds that day.

mercman wrote:

Yes, Bugner had a safety-first style and a great chin but he could be hurt. That punch that Shavers caught him with didn't look devastating but, Joe went down, delayed action, like he'd been shot. His legs just collapsed under him. Of course Shavers WAS a huge puncher and Bugner had been inactive but Bugner was hurt. The fight was stopped on a cut but no way was Bugner going 10 rounds that day.

Well, it is debatable what would have happened had it not been for the cut. However, the reality is that Bugner did get up and Shavers couldn't put him down again. Loads of fighters with good chins get put down - Holmes and Ali for two. The key thing is getting back up again. In over 80 fights Bugner was only KO'd once and that was as a 17-year-old in his first fight. He was never KO'd again and he fought loads of big punchers - including Joe Frazier and Ron Lyle. They couldn't ko Bugner and I dont think Foreman would either. I see Joe going the distance. The 76 version of Bugner would also have been much better than he was when he fought Shavers in the 80s. By this time Bugner was over-weight and inactive. The '76 Bugner was better and the '73 version better still. The Bugner that fought Ali the first time round gave him a really good fight.

I'll watch it again. My impression was that the cut saved Bugner from getting stopped but I'll have another look.

That's true about Joe giving Ali a good fight first time. He let himself down a bit in the rematch though. Back to his negative best. I remember Richard Dunne had a bit to say about that but Joe shut him up in the best manner possible.

To say Joe was never KO'd after his first fight is technically true but a little misleading. He couldn't take the punishment Bruno was dishing out and he was only being kept up by the ropes when Welch stopped him. Sure, he was well past his best by then but to suggest his chin was undentable in every fight bar his first is stretching the truth a bit.

I always enjoyed watching Bugner even if it was at times frustrating. A fellow who talked a great fight and who was big and had a lot of skill but often fought in a negative manner. But I'll never forget the night Winston Allen butted him and Joe really took umbrage and proceeded to pole-axe the Welshman with as good a shot as he ever threw.

yeah he wasnt that ruffled against bruno was he. very clear headed fighter.

mercman wrote:

To say Joe was never KO'd after his first fight is technically true but a little misleading. He couldn't take the punishment Bruno was dishing out and he was only being kept up by the ropes when Welch stopped him. Sure, he was well past his best by then but to suggest his chin was undentable in every fight bar his first is stretching the truth a bit.

That's fair comment. The Welch fight was just ridiculous though. Bugner was about 46 and way out of shape. However, Welch couldn't put him down. The ref had to stop it. The Bruno fight was more interesting though. I watched it at the time and I've seen it a number of times since. Again Bugner was well past his best, but leaving that aside Bruno won fair and square and well done to him. I always got the impression that Bugner was more tired and wasn't particularly hurt at the time of the stoppage though. He took a good shot, retreated to the ropes and basically sat there until the ref intervened. Rather than being comprehensively defeated I got the impression that Joe decided he had done enough for his pay cheque and decided it was time to say good night. He didn't seem that distressed and didn't have a mark on him at the end. It's just the way I've always felt about it.



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Have to say that i agree on Bugner-Bruno

Though Joe was, indeed, an exceptionally durable heavyweight, George Foreman was an elite level puncher with loads of killer instinct who made a career out of belting out fighters that didn't normally get belted out. His TKO3 over the "immovable object" that was George Foreman being a perfect example of that.

So, I just don't see Bugner going the full 12 with Foreman ( & yeah, I always envision it being a 12 rounder like all the important heavyweight fights were back then, even without there being any silly regional titles involved ). Instead I see him attempting to use his movement to keep away from George, but having the ring cut off on him after a couple-three rounds, being forced back into the ropes by Foreman's pole ax jab. After which, I see an accumulation of Foreman's punches & Bugner's busted up eyes causing the ref to wave it off in about the 6th round.

[quote="joe kurtz"]Though Joe was, indeed, an exceptionally durable heavyweight, George Foreman was an elite level puncher with loads of killer instinct who made a career out of belting out fighters that didn't normally get belted out. His TKO3 over the "immovable object" that was George Foreman being a perfect example of that.

george destroyed himself in 3 rounds? pretty impressive. ali took much longer to ko foreman.

seriously, who is "the immovable object" you nearly refered to?

harrygreb wrote:

joe kurtz wrote:Though Joe was, indeed, an exceptionally durable heavyweight, George Foreman was an elite level puncher with loads of killer instinct who made a career out of belting out fighters that didn't normally get belted out. His TKO3 over the "immovable object" that was George Foreman being a perfect example of that.

george destroyed himself in 3 rounds? pretty impressive. ali took much longer to ko foreman.

seriously, who is "the immovable object" you nearly refered to?

Presumably he means Frazier. Immoveable object is a fitting description probably not that suited to many of Foreman's opposition in the 70's. Of course that fight ended in two, not three, but those numbers are next to each other on the keyboard.

Actually, just had a thought. There was a fighter named George who Foreman stopped in the third who was exceptionally (in fact inconceivably) tough. He may have meant George Chuvalo, 1970?

That third round was brutal. Foreman swung an axe-like left hook that crashed into Chuvalo's kevlar-jaw, & Chuvalo physically moved so fast from the impact it looked like he teleported. Foreman crucified him all over the ring for the next minute or two causing the ref to stop it. But still Chuvalo kept his feet. What a chin!

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