BoxRec

To get your attention.

Vitali Klitschko
David Tua
George Chuvalo
Marvin Hagler (Roldan doesn't deserve a legitimate knockdown)

Their's got to be more.

If the second Rahman-Tua fight had gone another 2 seconds he wouldnt be in this thread. That said, Tua has an all time great chin.

Up until Walcott, Marciano wasn't ever knocked down as a professional. At the time Marciano had 42 fights. 42 fights without so much as a knockdown is pretty impressive.

wayne mccullough

HomicideHenry wrote:Up until Walcott, Marciano wasn't ever knocked down as a professional. At the time Marciano had 42 fights. 42 fights without so much as a knockdown is pretty impressive.

George Chuvalo takes the cake.
93 pro fights, never off his feet
fought Ali (twice), Foreman, Frazier, Quarry, Terrell, etc, etc

HomicideHenry wrote:Up until Walcott, Marciano wasn't ever knocked down as a professional. At the time Marciano had 42 fights. 42 fights without so much as a knockdown is pretty impressive.

But to be fair look at who he'd fought. LaStarza and Kid Matthews wern't really know as big Heavyweight hitters.

ECMoney wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:Up until Walcott, Marciano wasn't ever knocked down as a professional. At the time Marciano had 42 fights. 42 fights without so much as a knockdown is pretty impressive.

George Chuvalo takes the cake.
93 pro fights, never off his feet
fought Ali (twice), Foreman, Frazier, Quarry, Terrell, etc, etc

He was stopped by a young George Foreman in 3 rounds.

He was stopped by a young Joe Frazier in 4 rounds.

Neither of those takes any cake.

dempseyfire wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:Up until Walcott, Marciano wasn't ever knocked down as a professional. At the time Marciano had 42 fights. 42 fights without so much as a knockdown is pretty impressive.

But to be fair look at who he'd fought. LaStarza and Kid Matthews wern't really know as big Heavyweight hitters.

rex layne was viewed as a big hitter at the time. he could wack with that right hand. Ring experts at the time said this, not me. Read the ring magazine articles of that era.

Joe Louis at 6'2 214lb was no softie. sure he was old and far removed from his prime, but anyone whos rated # 1 greatest punchers list of all time can still hit even at age 37. Louis one punch kayo of lee savold(who marciano couldnt floor) attests to him still having knockout power. Joe louis also knocked out nino valdez in an exhibition in 1951.

Was Kid Gavilan ever knocked down in 143 fights_

delisa...........carmen basilio floored him for a 9 count in the 2nd round in their title fight.

I think Ike Williams decked Gavilan also.

Did Monzon manage 30 in a row without a KD?

delisa wrote:Was Kid Gavilan ever knocked down in 143 fights_

Yes, he sure was.

Ike Williams knocked him down.

Carmen Basilio knocked him down.

Those are well known facts to those familiar with the subject.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Louis one punch kayo of lee savold

Savold's face was chopped to pieces.

He stayed and stayed in there, no matter what he was hit with.

The Louis-Savold fight was as far from a one punch KO as a fight could be.

The big argument against Marciano is mostly the "he never fought a hard hitter like himself", and while this does hold true, this can also be said of many other past champions or current, more modern contenders and champions.

Joe Frazier, for all intents and purposes, only faced one man on par or a league above him in punching prowess and that was Foreman. Who can you name who was really in Foreman's league as a puncher? Ron Lyle? Holyfield? Morrison?...while all three examples were hard punchers, Holyfield was known more for his ability and courage, Morrison was known for his left hook and while Lyle was legit and though under-rated, his greatest fights, for the most part, were his losses to Foreman and Ali.

Or let's look at it in another aspect, how many men can you name that Ali fought who were just as fast as himself, or were as elusive and skilled? There's none you can really make a hard fought argument for, unless it was when Ali was passed his best years and fought the likes of Young or Norton.

Layne, Matthews, Louis (though on a comeback trail), and Wallcott were hard hitters, you could make the case also that Moore was a hard hitter (being that he has more kayos than any other professional) but they were not on Marciano's level of hitting power by any means.

Now had Rocky fought a Frazier, Jeffries, Dempsey, Foreman, Shavers type of opponent, or even a more in his prime Joe Louis and won, I wonder still if the argument would still hold water and rage on. I think the biggest hit against Marciano is, unlike Dempsey, unlike Ali, unlike Louis, he never lost. Some say it was because he was never really tested against a more game opponent, that the era was weak, and while there is truth to it, I think possibly had he lost and avenged the loss, he probably would have a better legacy than he does.

Some men are defined by their losses. Ali's greatest, most heart felt moments in the ring, happened after his losses to Frazier and Norton. Holyfield's greatest wins (rematch with Bowe, first match with Tyson) were all inbetween or following dramatic losses. Dempsey for the most part became the stuff of legend, not for his win over Willard or Carpentier or Firpo, but for the legendary long count against Tunney, a fight he lost.

I think had The Rock lost one, avenged the loss, and stayed champ a little longer and defended against more younger men like Machen, Jackson, Patterson, and later Johansson, I think his legacy would have been greater. People sometimes become too much in awe of the 49-0, while others look negatively at it and justify the victories because the opponents weren't of the caliber of the 1960's and 1970's.

Gavilan was knocked down by Carlos Malacara, Julio Cesar Jimenez, Ike Williams and Carmen Basilio.

Packey McFarland was only knocked down by 3 fighters in his career, but he had streaks of 51 and 50 bouts (the latter to finish his career) without being on the canvas.

Seamus wrote:To get your attention.

Vitali Klitschko
David Tua
George Chuvalo
Marvin Hagler (Roldan doesn't deserve a legitimate knockdown)

Their's got to be more.

He was down, your boy Hagler was down........learn to live with it.

Just another example of this idolization and denial of this goofy southpaw plodder's fans. A bumbler who was a MW champ at a time when there were no real MW.

edit

Seamus wrote:To get your attention.

Vitali Klitschko
David Tua
George Chuvalo
Marvin Hagler (Roldan doesn't deserve a legitimate knockdown)

Their's got to be more.

Hagler certainly deserves credit for an immediate thumb as soon as he was knocked down by Roldan.

granberry wrote:

Seamus wrote:To get your attention.

Vitali Klitschko
David Tua
George Chuvalo
Marvin Hagler (Roldan doesn't deserve a legitimate knockdown)

Their's got to be more.

Hagler certainly deserves credit for an immediate thumb as soon as he was knocked down by Roldan.

Oooo, add Hagler to the list of fighters Crankberry can't look at objectively. This one sort of surprises me as I thought I had noticed a pattern in the old Cranksters enemies list. Just shows you can't second guess a maniac.

HomicideHenry wrote:The big argument against Marciano is mostly the "he never fought a hard hitter like himself", and while this does hold true, this can also be said of many other past champions or current, more modern contenders and champions.

But how many other top-5 [or top-10, depending whose list you're looking at] ATG HWs *can* you say the same thing of?

Joe Frazier, for all intents and purposes, only faced one man on par or a league above him in punching prowess and that was Foreman.

...who was kayoed by the allegedly light-hitting Ali. Sure, Ali didn't have the one-punch KO power of a Shavers or Foreman - to some degree because he didn't usually really sit down on his shots - but his combination of speed, reach and power were also something Marciano never came close to facing.

Or let's look at it in another aspect, how many men can you name that Ali fought who were just as fast as himself, or were as elusive and skilled?

Patterson was pretty quick. So was Frazier. Liston was pretty quick and skilled, to boot. Again, Marciano never faced any HWs like those guys.

Now had Rocky fought a Frazier, Jeffries, Dempsey, Foreman, Shavers type of opponent, or even a more in his prime Joe Louis and won, I wonder still if the argument would still hold water and rage on. I think the biggest hit against Marciano is, unlike Dempsey, unlike Ali, unlike Louis, he never lost.

No, I think the biggest knock on the Rock is that he never faced any big, fast, skilled true HWs like that, and if he had, while he likely would have won against some, he also very likely would not have retired undefeated. To use a baseball analogy, it's like arguing about the hitting prowess of a guy with undeniable hitting skills but who only ever faced minor-league pitchers.

Collins2000 wrote:

granberry wrote:

Seamus wrote:To get your attention.

Vitali Klitschko
David Tua
George Chuvalo
Marvin Hagler (Roldan doesn't deserve a legitimate knockdown)

Their's got to be more.

Hagler certainly deserves credit for an immediate thumb as soon as he was knocked down by Roldan.

Oooo, add Hagler to the list of fighters Crankberry can't look at objectively. This one sort of surprises me as I thought I had noticed a pattern in the old Cranksters enemies list. Just shows you can't second guess a maniac.

buzz' butt-boy Collins shows up on cue.

Was Lamotta ever knocked down?

I thought Bob Murphy dropped LaMotta, but the only knockdown I noticed on his resume was Danny Nardico near the end of his career.