BoxRec

How would these two who are in some way linked by so much have done against the other.

Liston past his best, still capable, still dangerous but so tarnished by his two Ali meetings. With such a good reach, a much vaunted jab...Ellis fresh of his wins over Leotis Martin and Oscar Bonavena looks to be the next HW great.

Ellis, desperate to break free from his sparring partners sphere and stamp his own place in history. The poor man's Ali, the ugly step child of the Ali-Dundee love nest, a skilled man in his own right does he have enough to prove the 'ali' style supreme over the man that made his stable mate famous....Liston floating in obscurity since the Ali rematch has devoured journeymen Dave Bailey and Elmer Rush, seems a way off from his once great status as the sports most feared man.

The fight is set for around early Feburary of 1968.

Lets say Dundee will risk Ellis against Liston.

Jimmy Ellis - 6'1, 195lb
Sonny Liston - 6'1, 220lb

How do you guys see it going ?

Kym

This is a tough one to call, but if it is 1968 and Liston is on the downslide, I think a likely scenario is that Dundee has Ellis extra-cautious in the first 5 rounds and then getting more aggressive later on, winning the fight sometime after the 10th by stoppage or winning a UD.

Dundee would also be sure to choose the ref, with instructions to stop the fight and call it for Ellis the first time Sonny sneezed.

Robinson wrote:How would these two who are in some way linked by so much have done against the other.

Liston past his best, still capable, still dangerous but so tarnished by his two Ali meetings. With such a good reach, a much vaunted jab...Ellis fresh of his wins over Leotis Martin and Oscar Bonavena looks to be the next HW great.

Ellis, desperate to break free from his sparring partners sphere and stamp his own place in history. The poor man's Ali, the ugly step child of the Ali-Dundee love nest, a skilled man in his own right does he have enough to prove the 'ali' style supreme over the man that made his stable mate famous....Liston floating in obscurity since the Ali rematch has devoured journeymen Dave Bailey and Elmer Rush, seems a way off from his once great status as the sports most feared man.

The fight is set for around early Feburary of 1968.

Lets say Dundee will risk Ellis against Liston.

Jimmy Ellis - 6'1, 195lb
Sonny Liston - 6'1, 220lb

How do you guys see it going ?

Kym

I think the Liston of the late 60's was avoided by all the top men. He was very dangerous.

The only trouble was, he did not train. I could see Ellis having too much movement for him, winning a 15 round decision.

If Sonny could have got in shape and upped the pace with his regualr jab he could stop Ellis.

Would have been a very good fight.

One of the tragedies of Boxing is that Liston never got a ahot at Ellis or Frazier.

Robinson wrote:

Jimmy Ellis - 6'1, 195lb

Kym

What about Jimmy Ellis, 160 lb.

Eliis fought as a middleweight for a number of years.

Liston didn't weigh 160 since he was 13-14 years old.

Ellis was very tall, I would say 6'3"

I have stood right next to him.

It is amazing that he could fight at 160.
He was painfully tall and gangly at that weight.

I have a film of Ellis losing to Holly Mims at that weight.

In comparison to Mims, middleweight Ellis appeared slow, and mainly trying to land his right hand (without much success).

He came across as a good natured, pleasant dispositioned guy when I came across him when he was a sparring partner for Ali.

He was standing and dancing gently to the music by himself while he stood outside the door of a hotel bar that had music while he looked into the bar and we talked.
I remember at one point somehow the name Hurricane Carter was brought up. I asked him where Carter was at that point and he said, "Back in jail."

Mentally ill racist Bundini came up to Ellis and told him not to talk to me.

Bundini was a physical coward to an amazing degree. I laughed at him and Ellis did too, much to Bundini's displeasure.

Ellis seems and comes across as a pretty nice guy. quick to smile and not too arrogant which is unusual for some one from his camp.

In the ring however I just can't get excited by his talent. He never really interests me as some one I would go out of my way to watch.

His stats are listed as 6'1, but he looks taller to me. Mayeb 6'2 and a bit but he does look shorter than Ali. He is however listed as 6'1 for most of his fights.

Crazy to think he was a MW. However at Greco Roman nationals back in 05 there was a Russian lad who was 6'7 or so. Im 6'2 but he dwarfed me, yet I weiged in at 2kg more than him. He was 90Kg ! Its amazing how tall yet light some people can be. I suppose just look at Thomas Hearns.

Kym

Robinson wrote:Ellis seems and comes across as a pretty nice guy. quick to smile and not too arrogant which is unusual for some one from his camp.

In the ring however I just can't get excited by his talent. He never really interests me as some one I would go out of my way to watch.

His stats are listed as 6'1, but he looks taller to me. Mayeb 6'2 and a bit but he does look shorter than Ali. He is however listed as 6'1 for most of his fights.

Crazy to think he was a MW. However at Greco Roman nationals back in 05 there was a Russian lad who was 6'7 or so. Im 6'2 but he dwarfed me, yet I weiged in at 2kg more than him. He was 90Kg ! Its amazing how tall yet light some people can be. I suppose just look at Thomas Hearns.

Kym

Even though he was brief at the weight and never champion, Jimmy Ellis was one of the best Middleweights and Light Heavyweights of all time.

Between 160 and 175 he was awesome.

KO Artist wrote:

Even though he was brief at the weight and never champion, Jimmy Ellis was one of the best Middleweights and Light Heavyweights of all time.

Between 160 and 175 he was awesome.

As a middleweight Jimmy Ellis lost to

Holly Mims

Rubin Carter

Don Fullmer

Georgie Benton


I'd hate to see what his record would look like if he had not been

"one of the best Middleweights and Light Heavyweights of all time."

granberry wrote:

KO Artist wrote:

Even though he was brief at the weight and never champion, Jimmy Ellis was one of the best Middleweights and Light Heavyweights of all time.

Between 160 and 175 he was awesome.

As a middleweight Jimmy Ellis lost to

Holly Mims

Rubin Carter

Don Fullmer

Georgie Benton


I'd hate to see what his record would look like if he had not been

"one of the best Middleweights and Light Heavyweights of all time."

I'll take a crack at this answer...."Worse"?

KO Artist wrote:

Robinson wrote:Ellis seems and comes across as a pretty nice guy. quick to smile and not too arrogant which is unusual for some one from his camp.

In the ring however I just can't get excited by his talent. He never really interests me as some one I would go out of my way to watch.

His stats are listed as 6'1, but he looks taller to me. Mayeb 6'2 and a bit but he does look shorter than Ali. He is however listed as 6'1 for most of his fights.

Crazy to think he was a MW. However at Greco Roman nationals back in 05 there was a Russian lad who was 6'7 or so. Im 6'2 but he dwarfed me, yet I weiged in at 2kg more than him. He was 90Kg ! Its amazing how tall yet light some people can be. I suppose just look at Thomas Hearns.

Kym

Even though he was brief at the weight and never champion, Jimmy Ellis was one of the best Middleweights and Light Heavyweights of all time.

Between 160 and 175 he was awesome.

Really? Based on what?

Can you get any footage of Ellis at these lighter weights?

Robinson wrote:Can you get any footage of Ellis at these lighter weights?

There is a film (all ten rounds) of Holly Mims beating a very tall, skinny Jimmy Ellis.

My regular fight provider, boxingvideos.net, has Jimmy Ellis against Rubin Carter if it's of any interest, Robinson.

granberry wrote:

KO Artist wrote:

Even though he was brief at the weight and never champion, Jimmy Ellis was one of the best Middleweights and Light Heavyweights of all time.

Between 160 and 175 he was awesome.

As a middleweight Jimmy Ellis lost to

Holly Mims

Rubin Carter

Don Fullmer

Georgie Benton


I'd hate to see what his record would look like if he had not been

"one of the best Middleweights and Light Heavyweights of all time."

Yeah Ellis did lose to those individuals, but let's give him some credit here. He was pretty much a professional novice with only a handful of pro fights when he was tossed in with mini-"murderer's row" of middleweights. It's not as if he was losing to scrubs or journeymen. Those were VERY highly skilled, experienced, tough, tough guys. And obviously at that time, Ellis wasn't physically mature yet.
So, it's a testament to his own toughness & skill that he went the limit with each one of them in losing.

Personally, I don't believe Jimmy found his weight class & his stride as a fighter until he moved up to 175. And, had he stayed there, I have a feeling that Bob Foster's dominance over the devision would have been what it was ...

But, as we all know, Jimmy liked to eat & he LOVED the paychecks that came with being a heavyweight rather than a light-heavyweight.

Liston was not the puncher he once was by this time. I like Ellis by decision or late stoppage. They say punching power is the last to go.
Sonny was close to the end. You still had to be a cut above to beat him though, which Ellis was. I wonder if Floyd could have handled him by this stage? Any thoughts?

Its funny you should say that but I think Patterson, who was not as fast or youthful, but certainly was wiser in the ring. Chuvalo, Bonavena fights as an example. Who did jab and didn't leap stupidly. Would fare pretty well against a late stage Liston.

Liston was damaged goods after the 1965 Ali fight, whether people were wary of the fake nature or whether he came across as being shot. BUT I do think that while he was always going to be a danger he does at times get a pretty high rating by people who think at this late phase of his career that he would beat all the other guys in his division.

Still a tough menacing fighter in any case.

Kym