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Hatton and Graham
Posted: 23 Dec 2007, 01:02
by bbjc
Cant believe critism hatton is getting got beat off an outstanding one off mayweather now according to opinion hes a shot fighter - would not back against ricky against anyone true legend of the sport if there was more like hatton the sport would be better off.
Same goes for Graham watch this space these motherfuckers will be back
Calzaghe great british fighter outstanding record but will never be Ricky Hatton - best british fighter is Hatton Fact
Calzaghe flavour of the month but when both careers finish Ricky will be top man
Boxing fans fickle as fornicate - remember when whittaker fought was not regarded all that high until he had been and gone same goes for roy jones junior now floyd these guys are absolute legends and deserve the respect in their time - not 20 years later. Cant believe floyd has to still beat any cant before his legacy is complete - Cotto then Williams - fornicate that floyd could beat both comfortably - cotto out on his feet against torres and others good fighter but would have to catch floyd on the mother of bad nights
Lets started giving respect where its due
Re: Hatton and Graham
Posted: 23 Dec 2007, 06:40
by DG.
bbjc wrote:Cant believe critism hatton is getting got beat off an outstanding one off mayweather now according to opinion hes a shot fighter - would not back against ricky against anyone true legend of the sport if there was more like hatton the sport would be better off.
Same goes for Graham watch this space these motherfuckers will be back
Calzaghe great british fighter outstanding record but will never be Ricky Hatton - best british fighter is Hatton Fact
Calzaghe flavour of the month but when both careers finish Ricky will be top man
Boxing fans fickle as eff - remember when whittaker fought was not regarded all that high until he had been and gone same goes for roy jones junior now floyd these guys are absolute legends and deserve the respect in their time - not 20 years later. Cant believe floyd has to still beat any cant before his legacy is complete - Cotto then Williams - eff that floyd could beat both comfortably - cotto out on his feet against torres and others good fighter but would have to catch floyd on the mother of bad nights
Lets started giving respect where its due
Hatton is a good fighter, but basically a bully.
Re: Hatton and Graham
Posted: 23 Dec 2007, 08:12
by johnswan1
bbjc wrote:
Calzaghe great british fighter outstanding record but will never be Ricky Hatton - best british fighter is Hatton Fact
Calzaghe flavour of the month but when both careers finish Ricky will be top man
Get off the drugs pal.
Re: Hatton and Graham
Posted: 23 Dec 2007, 08:50
by KO Artist
johnswan1 wrote:bbjc wrote:
Calzaghe great british fighter outstanding record but will never be Ricky Hatton - best british fighter is Hatton Fact
Calzaghe flavour of the month but when both careers finish Ricky will be top man
Get off the drugs pal.
Your not wrong there. What is this bloke on?
Hatton is getting far too much credit for hanging in there for 10 rounds.
Calzaghe flavour of the month? He has been champion for 10 years, and was three time ABA champion before that. He has never lost, and has beaten the best. Calzaghe is the best champion we have ever had. Certainly in modern times.
I rate Hattons effort against Mayweather about level with Tony Sibsons v Marvin Hagler. Though there werent all these excuses after Tony's loss, and silly talk of a rematch. It was accepted that Tony wasnt good enough and the better man won. The same applies to Hatton. Just get over it.
Hatton could have Graham, Dundee, Arcel, Mayweather Snr, Freddie Brown, Jackie Blackburn, George Francis, Yank Durham, Lupe Sanchez, George Francis in his corner, and Mayweather could have no one in his corner, and guess what? Mayweather still wins.
I'm sorry and I dont want to be hard on a man when he is down, but Hatton lost becuase he is not as good a fighter as Mayweather, never would have been and never will be. It wasnt Billy Grahams fault, it was Hattons fault, oh and Mayweathers of course.
Hatons style was always going to mean coming unstuck sooner or later. Just be glad he has made money before doing so.
He would be better at his natraul weight, but any of the belt holders at 140 would give him trouble. He has a limited style.
Posted: 23 Dec 2007, 08:52
by Autobarn
Basically Hatton could beat up fringe contenders but when he got to world class he wasn't able to throw combos or lay into the opposition like he could with the Dave Stewarts of the world. In other words he had problems bridging that gap between the B and the A class. Being such a draw at the MEN must have made it so tempting to make another WBU defense, and another and another...and not grow as a fighter. It's either that or the limitations of his style.
Posted: 23 Dec 2007, 15:49
by bbjc
Never argued over who was the better fighter between Floyd and Ricky - nothing to get over m8.
Ricky gave everything he had - in the end not good enough against in my opinion the clear p4p no1 - no one will beat Floyd at or around his weight division only way i see him getting beat is if he tries to jump up too many weight divisions - maybe De la Hoya if there was a rematch.
Joe Calzaghe has been a credit to the sport - a quality fighter and as you have rightly said has proven himself for over ten years. However I still feel that the major fights have eluded Joe throughout his career which is no fault of his own but feel that the super middleweight division is and has been a poor division for many years. Unfortunately for Joe dont think we will ever find out how good he is or could have been - would love to have thrown Joe into a prime super middleweight division in my opinion when Eubank Benn Watson Mcllellan(all be it middleweight mostly) James Toney and Roy Jones Junior fought back in the 90's.
Looking back on Calzaghes record hard to find many career defining fights feel that allegedly who is an astute boxing promoter/manager has guided Joe's career expertly in the same manner in which he done with Ricky Hatton only problem being is that allegedly seems to protect his fighters a little too long and is only now letting Joe go in the ring with dangerous fighters. If Joe is so amazing as Frank keeps telling us, more so now he has lost Hatton, and has dominated in my opinion a poor division for 10 years why has he never been in with a younger Roy Jones Junior or Bernard Hopkins for example before now - moving up a weight in much the same way Hatton done to fight Floyd.
Looking through Calzaghes record stand out names seem to be a finished Chris Eubank who lost 4 of his last 6 fights before calling it a day, a split decision win against Robin Reid, Jeff Lacy who we are now finding out was never great in the first place and a good win against Kessler who had previosly only fought out of Denmark once prior to Calzaghe and who also appears to have a padded record. Also some other good wins in there - not trying to take anything away from Calzaghe who has been a quality fighter over the years but feel that Hatton went on to really test himself against more quality fighters and feel that if there was a floyd in Joe's weight division there would only be one winner.
But maybe when or if Calzaghe loses that undefeated record he will get the Hatton treatment - was he ever that good? he fought nobodies etc etc etc. However hope Joe can finish his career with his 0 intact and gets the credit he has deserved however I still feel that Hatton is Britain's best fighter.
Sorry for the length of the post guys if you got this far
Posted: 23 Dec 2007, 16:33
by Max Molyneux
Shouldn't you of said Ricky Hatton will never be Calzaghe?
Posted: 23 Dec 2007, 16:42
by n1ebf
Max Molyneux wrote:Shouldn't you of said Ricky Hatton will never be Calzaghe?
EXACTLY..........i don't really care about all this dodging Calzaghe gets accused of.........big deal, if you don't like it don't buy it.
I've spectated on the amateur circuit enough times to know that a triple ABA champion deserves his dues, and when it's come to the big fights Calzaghe has proved himself to be the better man on each occasion. Calzaghe has proved he can get whacked , get up and win. Calzaghe's top notch and the fact that he's boxing today and is NUMBER 2 on Ron's "official" list :P means we , some of us, should spend less time trying to knock him off his perch.
It still irks me that people slate his performance against the granite chinned Bika.......fending off a big, tough, game and sometimes dirty mother like that what with Joe's icicles for fingers to me was a great win.......some of you should know better from some of the quality posts I've read on here.
Posted: 23 Dec 2007, 18:20
by bbjc
Not knocking Calzaghe's achievements as such - sure I have given Joe his due throughout my post and have never stated he was not a good fighter just feel that hes not had any truely great career defining fights. Some good fights and results for Joe over the years but not enough to be labelled Britain's greatest ever boxing export.
It was not so long ago that Joe Calzaghe was not that highly regarded - only seems to be more recently - probably after the Lacy fight that his stock has truely risen. Dont grudge the man as he deserves huge credit for his accomplishments in the ring. However I dont think beating Kessler and Lacy probably his two greatest wins puts you in contention for the P4P no1 as some people seem to think he is or Britain's best fighter in modern times
Posted: 23 Dec 2007, 20:18
by Max Molyneux
When Calzaghe has stepped up and face fresh fighters, he's won.
When Hatton did he lost.
Posted: 23 Dec 2007, 20:27
by Phenomenal-Nutrition
I don't know how you critisize Joe's Past Prime Eubank win and in the same rant praise Hatton's Past Prime Tyszu and Castillo wins. Especiallo Castillo who got a gift against novie Ngoujo in his previous bout
Lets see if Ricky Hatton can beat the top2 guys at 140 like Calazage's just done. And lets see if Hatton can go on to beat as many top10 contenders as Calazage has. Hatton has only beat 4 Top 10 Level fighters realistically speaking (Tyszu, Castillo, Urango, Collazo). Maussa wasn't really top 10 level and neither was Tackie or the ancient Phillips.
Posted: 23 Dec 2007, 21:28
by bbjc
Fair enough Calzaghe has won when he has stepped up in class which I applaud him for however surely beating Kessler as Calzaghe is not in the same league as beating Mayweather if Hatton had done. I m aware Hatton lost the fight but Mayweather really was a step up in class, my point is that Calzaghe has never fought an elite Mayweather type fighter and if he did my fear is that he would lose in much the same way Hatton has maybe not a ko but probably a decisive loss.
I m maybe a little misunderstood in my posts I'm not rubbishing Calzaghe's achievements as such - maybe the Eubank fight was not fair of me to include as i have never seen the fight just going by Eubanks record just prior and after losing to Calzaghe it did appear as if his best days were behind him.
I ve heard many times over the few years how Kosta was finished too old etc but anyone who watched the fight must realise that Tyszu was fornicating good that night but was beaten by the better man in the end. Watched Tyszu many times in his career and he was a top fighter probably top 3 p4p fighter at a certain time in his career. I would rank Hatton beating even an older Tyszu the one we seen in there fight higher than any one fight in Calzaghes career. Not so sure about Castillo feel that the future will hold the answer to this one - be interested to see how well Ngoudjo does against Malgnaggi however fair to say that it was not a prime Castillo - never really heard anyone claim it as a prime Castillo still a dangerous opponent to take on at any time and got the job done inside 4 rounds.
Just reading some on the Hatton posts after the Mayweather fight and feel that he isn't really getting the credit he deserves it seems that after the Tyzsu fight many people seem to have started to go against him a little and would be interested to know why - feel that his last 4 or 5 fights since Tyzsu probably after he left FW have been against dangerous quality opponents far better than the opponents previous but each and every won up until Floyd were queried and rubbished.
British fans confuse me - for example Calzaghe's achievements were ignored for many years now he is the greatest and has been for 10 years if he was so fornicating good why was he not given the credit in the first place
same goes for Lewis
Hatton was the best then suddenly when he fights his way to the top, then people start querying if he was any good in the first place are the fans call ing these wrong or are they just indecicive?
Posted: 23 Dec 2007, 21:39
by bbjc
Thats the point I was trying to make earlier about Calzaghe being in a poor weight division through no fault of his own he has dominated the division and i have always stated he deserves great credit for this.
However Calzaghe in my opinion through Frank Warrens management has missed the real career defining fights in his prime to rank him as Britain best boxer ever etc. Was Calzaghe over protected? are Lacy and Kessler really the best Calzaghe could have fought throughout his 10 years reign?
Posted: 24 Dec 2007, 04:35
by KO Artist
bbjc wrote:Never argued over who was the better fighter between Floyd and Ricky - nothing to get over m8.
Ricky gave everything he had - in the end not good enough against in my opinion the clear p4p no1 - no one will beat Floyd at or around his weight division only way i see him getting beat is if he tries to jump up too many weight divisions - maybe De la Hoya if there was a rematch.
Joe Calzaghe has been a credit to the sport - a quality fighter and as you have rightly said has proven himself for over ten years. However I still feel that the major fights have eluded Joe throughout his career which is no fault of his own but feel that the super middleweight division is and has been a poor division for many years. Unfortunately for Joe dont think we will ever find out how good he is or could have been - would love to have thrown Joe into a prime super middleweight division in my opinion when Eubank Benn Watson Mcllellan(all be it middleweight mostly) James Toney and Roy Jones Junior fought back in the 90's.
Looking back on Calzaghes record hard to find many career defining fights feel that allegedly allegedly who is an astute boxing promoter/manager has guided Joe's career expertly in the same manner in which he done with Ricky Hatton only problem being is that allegedly allegedly seems to protect his fighters a little too long and is only now letting Joe go in the ring with dangerous fighters. If Joe is so amazing as Frank keeps telling us, more so now he has lost Hatton, and has dominated in my opinion a poor division for 10 years why has he never been in with a younger Roy Jones Junior or Bernard Hopkins for example before now - moving up a weight in much the same way Hatton done to fight Floyd.
Looking through Calzaghes record stand out names seem to be a finished Chris Eubank who lost 4 of his last 6 fights before calling it a day, a split decision win against Robin Reid, Jeff Lacy who we are now finding out was never great in the first place and a good win against Kessler who had previosly only fought out of Denmark once prior to Calzaghe and who also appears to have a padded record. Also some other good wins in there - not trying to take anything away from Calzaghe who has been a quality fighter over the years but feel that Hatton went on to really test himself against more quality fighters and feel that if there was a floyd in Joe's weight division there would only be one winner.
But maybe when or if Calzaghe loses that undefeated record he will get the Hatton treatment - was he ever that good? he fought nobodies etc etc etc. However hope Joe can finish his career with his 0 intact and gets the credit he has deserved however I still feel that Hatton is Britain's best fighter.
Sorry for the length of the post guys if you got this far
Career defing fights? What the fcuk does that mean.
Do you think they used that phrase in Ray Robinsons day?
I think Adam Smith from SKY coined that phrase.
Well that says it all.
It shoud be banned.
Posted: 24 Dec 2007, 06:27
by rooney
bbjc wrote:
Hatton was the best then suddenly when he fights his way to the top, then people start querying if he was any good in the first place are the fans call ing these wrong or are they just indecicive?
Not for me mate. I've been saying for a long, long time that Hatton is over rated. Generally he's beat older fighters with his high intensity style.
Hatton seems a good bloke, I quite like him, but he believes the hype too much. IMO. his best wins have come across older fighters who's skills, reflexes have diminished.
Ricky's Mother said she doesn't want him to fight past the age of 30 because of how the reflexes diminish after this age...well most of his best wins have been against fighters in their mid 30's.
How old is Junior Witter?
Hatton reminds me of Mcguigan:-
Beat a faded fighter to gain title (Pedroza) and avoided Azumah Nelson (Witter).
Ok, I agree Junior is no Azumah, but Hatton is (IMO) scared of taking him on because he'd lose a lot of his 'reputation' if he was beaten.
IMO, Ricky's had a good run. the fight fans have helped him become successful and he should NOW give them the fight they want...whilst Junior's still young enough.
Calzaghe is far superior - there's not a mark on Joe - this man is the real deal, trust me!
Posted: 24 Dec 2007, 06:33
by Lightsoot
rooney wrote:bbjc wrote:
Hatton was the best then suddenly when he fights his way to the top, then people start querying if he was any good in the first place are the fans call ing these wrong or are they just indecicive?
Not for me mate. I've been saying for a long, long time that Hatton is over rated. Generally he's beat older fighters with his high intensity style.
Hatton seems a good bloke, I quite like him, but he believes the hype too much. IMO. his best wins have come across older fighters who's skills, reflexes have diminished.
Ricky's Mother said she doesn't want him to fight past the age of 30 because of how the reflexes diminish after this age...well most of his best wins have been against fighters in their mid 30's.
How old is Junior Witter?
Hatton reminds me of Mcguigan:-
Beat a faded fighter to gain title (Pedroza) and avoided Azumah Nelson (Witter).
Ok, I agree Junior is no Azumah, but Hatton is (IMO) scared of taking him on because he'd lose a lot of his 'reputation' if he was beaten.
IMO, Ricky's had a good run. the fight fans have helped him become successful and he should NOW give them the fight they want...whilst Junior's still young enough.
Calzaghe is far superior - there's not a mark on Joe - this man is the real deal, trust me!
You can't discredit Hatton's win over Kostya Tszyu. He defeated the linear light-welterweight who was coming off a three-round pasting over Sharmba Mitchell, doing it in quicker fashion than he had the last time.
ps I'm a Witter fan and acknowledge your other points.
Posted: 24 Dec 2007, 06:44
by rooney
Ben Carey wrote:rooney wrote:bbjc wrote:
Hatton was the best then suddenly when he fights his way to the top, then people start querying if he was any good in the first place are the fans call ing these wrong or are they just indecicive?
Not for me mate. I've been saying for a long, long time that Hatton is over rated. Generally he's beat older fighters with his high intensity style.
Hatton seems a good bloke, I quite like him, but he believes the hype too much. IMO. his best wins have come across older fighters who's skills, reflexes have diminished.
Ricky's Mother said she doesn't want him to fight past the age of 30 because of how the reflexes diminish after this age...well most of his best wins have been against fighters in their mid 30's.
How old is Junior Witter?
Hatton reminds me of Mcguigan:-
Beat a faded fighter to gain title (Pedroza) and avoided Azumah Nelson (Witter).
Ok, I agree Junior is no Azumah, but Hatton is (IMO) scared of taking him on because he'd lose a lot of his 'reputation' if he was beaten.
IMO, Ricky's had a good run. the fight fans have helped him become successful and he should NOW give them the fight they want...whilst Junior's still young enough.
Calzaghe is far superior - there's not a mark on Joe - this man is the real deal, trust me!
You can't discredit Hatton's win over Kostya Tszyu. He defeated the linear light-welterweight who was coming off a three-round pasting over Sharmba Mitchell, doing it in quicker fashion than he had the last time.
ps I'm a Witter fan and acknowledge your other points.
allegedly has said recently that the 'timing' was right for Ricky to take on Kostya...it was!
I believe the timing was superb by allegedly. That's why he paid Kostya so much to get him over here (in a UK ring). It was a good win, but he wouldn't have been allowed to use the same tactics in an american ring IMO.
I like both fighters, but I believe Hatton is ducking him....
Posted: 24 Dec 2007, 06:59
by chris s
Call allegedly what you want but the matching of Ricky was superb from day one. Tszyu was about as spot on as Big Ben hitting midnight at the right second on New Years Eve.
Tszyu had been inactive, ageing and Hatton's style was ideal.
.
Posted: 24 Dec 2007, 07:32
by Wax On
I think the reason why Hatton has had so many detractors since his loss, was not to do with 'short memories' or fickle people wanting to knock him, but the realisation that his limited STYLE of boxing (which allowed him to.... in his words 'throw Castillo around like a rag doll' - or something to that effect, and tie up Tszyu (and every fighter since - with those 'hit and hold' pressure tactics) came up well short against the slicker boxing skills of Floyd Mayweather.
That's why when you talk about his legacy, it's pretty hard to imagine Ricky being considered the best British boxer of all time. Most popular maybe, best supported, probably. But quite clearly, there is no comparison stylistically with the skills that Hatton possesses (or displays) to those of Calzaghe. Who IMO is a much better all round boxer, capable of fighting on the inside and the out with a wider repertoire of shots (How many jabs has Hatton thrown since the Tsyzu fight!!?)
You could actually draw comparisons between Flloyd and Calzaghe in some ways - great amateur record, boxing family, excellent technique schooled from an early age, not as many KO's as you might expect - largely due to hand problems, only in recent years seems to be getting the credit they deserve, but both fantastic unbeaten fighters who have dominated their weight divisions for years.
I agree it's a real shame, that Joe hasn't had some of the bigger names on his record, but honestly feel that he would have had a great chance agaist any of the guys in his division for the last decade. Even now, I think a win over BHOP would still bring him a lot of credit. He's defeated the young, fit, hungry pretender in Kessler, now why not show he can beat the old, wily, master tactician.
For me Calzaghe is the best British fighter of his generation by some distance.
Posted: 24 Dec 2007, 09:39
by Spud
I actually think Ricky Hatton thoroughly deserves to be called a "World Class" fighter - I think he is terrific in the ring and a credit to British Boxing when he fights.
I honestly never ever thought I would ever write that I think finally, after all the b*llocks that Joe Calzaghe thoroughly deserves his mantle of being one of the best fighters this country has produced - I always nagged and had a pop because he did not face the best in his division - but that Kessler performance mightly impressed me.
In addition what has also changed is that I actually now rank Calzaghe considerably higher than Hatton in the P4P rankings - again something I never thought I would ever do.
My one frustration is one of confidence - why oh why did either Team Calzaghe or Mr W arren not chuck Calzaghe in sooner with the very best - I know what you could write - money - they wanted to get as much money before the BIG risks came.
Nonetheless - Hatton and Calzaghe deserve a lot of plaudits.
Hatton got thoroughy beaten by the very best P4P fighter in the world - I will actually argue one of the greatest fighters the world has ever produced.
Posted: 24 Dec 2007, 10:22
by bbjc
Kessler was a fine victory for Calzaghe and it seems to be the greatest test of his career to date, he was a good fighter but if we are being honest who has he really fought.
This is the main reason why I cannot compare Floyd Mayweathers career with Calzaghe's not really Calzaghe's fault as he has fought most of the best around his division but there could have been riskier World class opponents on the way. Whereas Mayweather has fought all the best out there where the level of competition has been so high, looking back over his record there really is some World class names on it who were beating mostly convicingly. Although maybe his legacy of being one of the best of all time will be slightly tarnished if he does not continue to see off the rest around the welterweight division which at the moment looks a quality competetive division. Where his legacy of being the best p4p of the last few years is set in stone in my opinion the best and most dominant since Roy Jones Junior.
Back to Hatton agree that Junior Witter must be a future opponent and ideally in my opinion Hatton's next fight. Would maybe question Hatton if he ducked out of this one however don't feel that Witter is in the same class as Hatton obviously dangerous opponent as he does have good power. Dont think Hatton has really been ducking Witter until now down to his boxing ability more ££££ and not wanting to give Witter a pay day. But the fight should now be made as Witter has deserved his shot through a few recent good wins for him and would be a good come-back fight for Hatton.