BoxRec

We've certainly gone back and forth about Ali's performances(I'll leave it at that) But how about some other Hall of Famers who were known to intentionally or unintentionally bend a rule or downright smashed it? I'll give you my pick:Fritzie Zivic. He used every part of his glove:laces,the thumb. If he was wearing it on his hand it was a weapon. He liked to get indside and bring his arm twisting up making sure the laced part of his glove got across your face. Somewhere in the fight he'd find a way to get his head into your neck so you couldn't breathe. A lot of fighters figured if they could beat Zivic they could handle anything after that.

Evander Holyfield > Head butts among other things.

Larry Holmes > Extending the lead arm, open gloves and thumbing.

Rocky Marciano > Elbows

Lennox Lewis > Groin guard to his armpits and leaning onto opponents.

George Foreman > Pushing opponents back to off load.

To name a few..

Henry Armstrong - Perpetual motion, including perpetual elbows and headbutts.

Armstrong is a good citing & not often mentioned.

Holyfield, Hopkins & to a lesser extent Trinidad were terribly crafty at it. Duran was infamous for it all. Not sure if it really became a part of his whole career, but Benn threw more rabbit punches against McClellan than you'll ever see.

ZIVIC was the Master and I think I remember reading Kid McCoy was quite proficient at all things foul, Greb, Walker. There must be hundreds of them who knew how to get away with 'murder'

I think the managers & Promoters were the best at all the Nasty stuff however!

Joe Frazier was another who could have used a third glove on his head, and let's not forget Sandy Saddler who literally yanked Willie Pep's shoulder out of the socket after the two of them used every trick in the book against each other.

As I said in the other thread, its probably harder to name a fighter who didn't bend or break the rules than it is to name one that did. But one who is underlooked is Hagler, who definitely knew how to rough up an opponent.

..willie pep was almost saddler's equal in the foul department but was much more subtle and clever, just as is boxing style was. their fourth match could be a lesson in every rule breaking method in the book, plus a few not in the index.

maxie baer wasn't a foul fighter as such, but he did use the back hand quite a bit. in his fight with braddock he backhands jimmy..he's close to bradock's corner and when the corner complains, maxie turns his attention away from the bout long enough to stand and argue with the corner about it!! oh, that maxie was a caution.

How did Saddler tear Pep's shoulder from its socket ?

kym

Ali- Pushing down on his opponents heads to 'wear them down', and Ali from time to time would thumb an opponent in the eye as evident in his fight with Ernie Terell

Tyson- Elbows, Biting, Wrenching Arms, Hitting after the bell, Head butts

Galento- You name it, he did it in the ring, he didn't box or follow the rules, he went out and made every bout into a street fight

John L. Sullivan- In his fight with Jake Kilrain, it was reported that Sullivan dropped a knee on the face of Kilrain after slamming him down to the canvas

Foreman- Shoving is what I remember the most, as he done so in fights with Boone Kirkman just to show off and intimidate, though those tactics could have gotten him DQ'd, and in his later career in his comeback he did an awful lot of low blows against the likes of Alex Stewart

Tom Cribb- The British champion supposedly bit the fingers of Tom Mulineaux in their first fight down to the bone!

Jack Dempsey- Lows blows (the Jack Sharkey fight)

Andrew Golota- Low blows (the Bowe fights)

Tom Sharkey- Like Galento, he threw everything short of an iron maiden in the ring against his opponents, it didn't matter to him if a set of laces, shoulders, fists, or his head hit you first, just as long as you got hurt

Cliff Couser- Body Slammed his opponent in the ring on one occassion

HomicideHenry wrote:Ali- Pushing down on his opponents heads to 'wear them down', and Ali from time to time would thumb an opponent in the eye as evident in his fight with Ernie Terell

As far as I'm aware that never happened in any other Ali fight, and there's no way of knowing whether the thumbing was intentional or not.

the "thumbing" or the pushing down on his opponents necks? I can name at least five fights off the top of my head where Ali did the pushing on his opponents neck, if thats what you are referring to.

Ali was also notorious for 'back fisting' instead of jabbing. And Ali would often pull his opponents heads down.

Among the great fighters, Harry Greb and Mysterious
Billy Smith were also known for using foul tactics.

Eusebio Pedroza, certainly an outstanding fighter,
put on a foul-filled clinic in a bout with Juan Laporte,
throwing numerous elbows and low blows.

- Chuck Johnston

Marco Antonio Barrera always had a horrible temper and when he wasn't attacking his opponents he was sometimes seen in the ring hitting on breaks, pushing, shoving, holding and hitting and pretty much doing whatever came to him at the time when he lost it (i.e. the near-wrestling match with Hamed and him slamming The Prince's head into a ringpost).

Tiger Flowers is another example.

Diamond WEAPON wrote:Marco Antonio Barrera always had a horrible temper and when he wasn't attacking his opponents he was sometimes seen in the ring hitting on breaks, pushing, shoving, holding and hitting and pretty much doing whatever came to him at the time when he lost it (i.e. the near-wrestling match with Hamed and him slamming The Prince's head into a ringpost).

He could have used some of that fire during the return with Pacquiao. Seemed like he tasted the power that brought it all back to him & then just shut up shop & said, "No thanks."

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

Diamond WEAPON wrote:Marco Antonio Barrera always had a horrible temper and when he wasn't attacking his opponents he was sometimes seen in the ring hitting on breaks, pushing, shoving, holding and hitting and pretty much doing whatever came to him at the time when he lost it (i.e. the near-wrestling match with Hamed and him slamming The Prince's head into a ringpost).

He could have used some of that fire during the return with Pacquiao. Seemed like he tasted the power that brought it all back to him & then just shut up shop & said, "No thanks."

Actually I think he was trying to do to Pacquiao what he had done to Rocky Juarez in picking counters more conservatively. Pacquiao's speed is what threw the wrench in that gameplan though and of course Barrera fouled Pacman in his frustration in the 11th too, it was a great shot, too bad it was when the ref was breaking them up, had he thrown it before the ref moved in he could've had a chance for a KO or KD, but there's no promise it woulda had the same effect either, by that time he wasn't thinking so much as acting.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Armstrong is a good citing & not often mentioned.

Holyfield, Hopkins & to a lesser extent Trinidad were terribly crafty at it. Duran was infamous for it all. Not sure if it really became a part of his whole career, but Benn threw more rabbit punches against McClellan than you'll ever see.

Bruno vs Ferguson = 17 consecutive rabbit punches!

Michael Spinks - his miss a hook but follow through with the elbow was a skill in its own right.

Marciano was quite adept at this too.

One question on backhanding... I've always wondered why it's an outlawed punch. What exactly are the benefits of this blow?

Terry D wrote:

Ezzard wrote:Michael Spinks - his miss a hook but follow through with the elbow was a skill in its own right.

Marciano was quite adept at this too.

One question on backhanding... I've always wondered why it's an outlawed punch. What exactly are the benefits of this blow?

It is a flick, catch a guy wrong with the flick/glove and it will mess his eye up badly in my opinion.

I see. Not so much a backhand tennis stroke, more of a sand in the eyes trick...

HomicideHenry wrote:the "thumbing" or the pushing down on his opponents necks? I can name at least five fights off the top of my head where Ali did the pushing on his opponents neck, if thats what you are referring to.

I was clearly referring to the thumbing. You implied that Ali thumbed Terrell intentionally, when we don't know that it was intentional, and you implied that he did it more than once, when I know of no other instance of that happening.

As for this holding behind the head business that many on this forum are stuck on; I've seen about 52 of Ali's 61 fights, I don't need any of you to tell me that he pulled behind his opponents necks. I also know that he wasn't the only Heavyweight to do so, while many of you don't seem to know that. Lewis should get at least as much recognition on that subject as Ali, and no one ever penalized Lewis for it either.