BoxRec

Okay many fo the top 8 weight classes have a definite one or 2 fighters who are obvious choices.

HW

Most people pick Ali or Louis. It's rare anyone argues for someone else.

LHW

Charles is number 1 for most, though some will say Archie Moore. You could sneak Tunney into the list too. Langford is a maybe but he's hard to judge at the various weughts he fought at.

MW

This glorious division has a lot of talent and at a glance seems competitive but once you look at Greb's record it's ahrd to really place anyone else alongside him.

WW

Another division packed with talent but Robinson stands high above everyone else.

Feather

Most will go for Pep, some will point to Saddler but usually these are the 2 people go for.

This leaves LW where we have

Gans
Nelson
Leonard
Canzoneri
Ross
Ambers
Armstrong
Williams
Ortiz
Duran
Arguello
Chavez
Whittaker
Moseley
Mayweather

as well as the likes of

Blackburn
Holly
Erne
Wolgast
Camacho

Is the greatest lightweight off all time nomination the most competitive and disputed in boxing history? Seems like there are lots of fighters who could lay claim to the mantle.

Ezzard wrote:Okay many fo the top 8 weight classes have a definite one or 2 fighters who are obvious choices.

HW

Most people pick Ali or Louis. It's rare anyone argues for someone else.

LHW

Charles is number 1 for most, though some will say Archie Moore. You could sneak Tunney into the list too. Langford is a maybe but he's hard to judge at the various weughts he fought at.

MW

This glorious division has a lot of talent and at a glance seems competitive but once you look at Greb's record it's ahrd to really place anyone else alongside him.

WW

Another division packed with talent but Robinson stands high above everyone else.

Feather

Most will go for Pep, some will point to Saddler but usually these are the 2 people go for.

This leaves LW where we have

Gans
Nelson
Leonard
Canzoneri
Ross
Ambers
Armstrong
Williams
Ortiz
Duran
Arguello
Chavez
Whittaker
Moseley
Mayweather

as well as the likes of

Blackburn
Holly
Erne
Wolgast
Camacho

Is the greatest lightweight off all time nomination the most competitive and disputed in boxing history? Seems like there are lots of fighters who could lay claim to the mantle.

I would probably say so, although in terms of overall depth I'd argue the Middleweights were stronger. One thing though;

Camacho? I don't think anyone puts him as the number one lightweight of all time

dempseyfire wrote:

Ezzard wrote:Okay many fo the top 8 weight classes have a definite one or 2 fighters who are obvious choices.

HW

Most people pick Ali or Louis. It's rare anyone argues for someone else.

LHW

Charles is number 1 for most, though some will say Archie Moore. You could sneak Tunney into the list too. Langford is a maybe but he's hard to judge at the various weughts he fought at.

MW

This glorious division has a lot of talent and at a glance seems competitive but once you look at Greb's record it's ahrd to really place anyone else alongside him.

WW

Another division packed with talent but Robinson stands high above everyone else.

Feather

Most will go for Pep, some will point to Saddler but usually these are the 2 people go for.

This leaves LW where we have

Gans
Nelson
Leonard
Canzoneri
Ross
Ambers
Armstrong
Williams
Ortiz
Duran
Arguello
Chavez
Whittaker
Moseley
Mayweather

as well as the likes of

Blackburn
Holly
Erne
Wolgast
Camacho

Is the greatest lightweight off all time nomination the most competitive and disputed in boxing history? Seems like there are lots of fighters who could lay claim to the mantle.

I would probably say so, although in terms of overall depth I'd argue the Middleweights were stronger. One thing though;

Camacho? I don't think anyone puts him as the number one lightweight of all time

Okay, you got me but he was a talented guy who would pose plenty of problems for anyone at the weight.

I think you could make the case that pre-Rosario fight Camacho looked like the most talented guy on that division and did show flashes of brilliance. However, after the Rosario fight he became more of a runner than a boxer. I think his skills and talents were on par with the best but not his heart.

At MW I think Hagler and Monzon deserve some recognition and could be solid contenders and at WW Henry Armstrong also deserves some recognition.

Other than that great list Ezzard.

I think Monzon has the lock on MW.

Duran at LW, although it's not as clear-cut as the other divisions.

Also you forgot to include flyweight, although I suppose most would go for Wilde?

Also you forgot to include flyweight, although I suppose most would go for Wilde?

oliverfennell wrote:Also you forgot to include flyweight, although I suppose most would go for Wilde?

Just don't know enough about bantam and fly to be sure of what I'm writing.

For me with those listed divisions I would take...

Heavyweight: Joe Louis

Light-Heavyweight: Ezzard Charles

Middleweight: Carlos Monzon

Welterweight: Ray Robinson

Lightweight: Pernell Whitaker

Featherweight: Willie Pep

I think you are right about Lightweight being the most open, though in my experience Duran definitely heads the list for most people.

Interesting topic btw, Ezzard.

This is an interesting thread.
Heavyweight - Most people do pick Ali or Louis. I have Ali #1 and Louis #2.

Lightheavyweight- Charles is probably the #1 choice more than anyone else, but there is some diversity of opinion here. Many people go with Moore, and you will also occasionally hear Tunney,Spinks,Foster and Langford. I think you can make a credible case for any of the 6. I have Spinks #1. He was undefeated at this weight class against great competition. I'm not convinced anyone else could have done that.

Middleweight- There doesn't seem to be one guy that is the consensus. Usually it goes down to Monzon,Hagler,or Greb. You used to hear Robinson a lot more. I have Monzon #1,Hagler #2, and Greb #3. Very close.

Welterweight- Almost everyone picks Robinson #1, as do I. Don't get me started on #2

Lightweight- you do hear a lot of names. Duran,Gans, and Leonard are probably the ones you hear the most. There are several others who were close.

Featherweight - Pep is usually #1, followed by Saddler and then often Sanchez. If Sanchez would have fought longer he may have been #1. I used to have Saddler #1, but now go with Pep. It's very close, and Sanchez is not far behind.

Bantamweight - Like the featherweights, the guy that seems to be considered #1 (Jofre) more than anyone else, lost the series to another great (Harada). Zarate and Olivares also get a lot of mention. You could make the case for any of the 4.

Flyweight -Doesn't get a lot of mention, when it does almost everyone says Wilde. Pascual Perez is probably #2.

The lightweight division probably is the most open. The #10 or 15 lightweight is probably closer to the #1 guy than in the other weight classes. There is so much depth that probably even the guys rated #20-25 guy would beat the #1-5 guys once out of 4 times.
Ezzard mentioned several great lightweights. There was also Freddie Welsh,Packy McFarland,Ike Williams,Joe Brown,Sammy Angott,Sammy Mandell,Oscar De la Hoya,Beau Jack,Bob Montgomery, and Billy Petrolle.

If you had say a dozen people do a top 10 list of lightweights, you would probably have a greater difference of who deserves to make it than any of the other weight classes.

I think the undisputed LW all-time champ is Roberto Duran. I can get Joe Gans and especially Benny Leonard getting a mention, but not the others on the list, although they are great fighters.
I think the MW division is the most open - good cases can be made for Hagler, Monzon, Greb or even Robinson. Id give Marvelous Marvin the nod, maybe out of bias!

I think the middleweigh division is the most open of the 8 original divisions.

I have seen many lists that Robinson, Hagler, Monzon and Greb are randomly select as #1 all-time middleweights.

We should have a poll to select the greatest middleweight of all-time

I pick Carlos Monzon as the greatest middleweight ever.

the other 7 weight classes are I think, locked up.

The other division after middleweight that is almost not certain who was the greatest is the bantamweight division. Some say is Eder Jofre. Others pick Panama Al Brown, Carlos Zarate, Manuel Ortiz or Ruben Olivares...A great class if you think about it.

elmersalsa wrote:I think the middleweigh division is the most open of the 8 original divisions.

I agree with elmer, oddly, that the Middleweight division is the most open.

HW- Ali for me, his record is like the Gold standard of records.

LHW- Charles accomplished the most here imo, but along with some other names mentioned I think Michael Moorer should get more credit here, he was a destroyer at this weight even though he didn't stay long.

MW- Monzon for me. He was just plain great.

WW- Robinson of course. He stands above the rest relatively clearly.

LW- I'd go with Duran, he was just incredible at LW. The only guys that come close imo are Armstrong and Chavez, both of whom were also incredibly fearsome at the weight. I give Mosley and Whitaker a lot of credit here too though.

FW: Willie Pep. In his prime he was a true virtuoso and had a style that has inspired a number of very successful boxers.

BW: Ruben Olivares for me.

FW: Miguel Canto, he was like a Mexican Willie Pep

SW: Ricardo Lopez.


I'm curious as to who people have as the greatest fighters ever for the In-Between divisions, because I think some of them (particularly LMW) could be even more wide open than the lower weight classes from the non-in-betweens.

Cruiserweight: Evander Holyfield

Super Middleweight: Roy Jones Jr.

Light Middleweight: Mike McCallum, I could see several other guys here too though.

Light Welterweight: Carlos Hernandez

Super Featherweight: Julio Cesar Chavez

Super Bantamweight: Marco Antonio Barrera, Israel Vazquez or Rafael Marquez could wind up taking over here though.

Super Flyweight: Gilberto Roman

Light Flyweight: Michael Carbajal edges out Humberto Gonzalez for me. That final championship win against Jorge Arce was pretty sweet.

Couldn't agree more DW, except for perhaps on 140 and 160. I'm not sure who I have at the best at those two weights. I would also nominate Hearns for 154, along with McCallum.

light welterweight - kostya tszyu unified the division and the longest reighning champion

light feather - MAB

cruiserweight - commander evander

supermiddle - joe calzaghe, i think jones was better but didnt stay at the division long enough joe has pretty much unified it and made a shit load of defences

strawweight - ricardo lopez

featherweight - willi pep or sandy sadler

lightweight - duran

welterweight - robinson

middleweight - monzon or hagler, robinson is up there

light heavyweight - charles

heavyweight - ali for me

If we talk about the other jr divisions I pick:

Cruiserweight: Evander Holyfield
Super Middleweight: Joe Calzague
Super Welterweight: Mike McCallum
Jr. Welterweight: Aaron Pryor
Jr Lightweight: Flash Elorde
Super Bantamweight: Wilfredo Gomez, hands down!
Jr. Bantamweight: Khosai Galaxy
Jr. Flyweight: Myung Woo Yuh or Michael Carbajal
Strawweight: Finito Lopez, hands down!

why is pryor rated above tszyu so often i think tszyu has the best claim out of all of the jnr welters for reasons mentioned above aswell as more defences of his title

p4p1 wrote:why is pryor rated above tszyu so often i think tszyu has the best claim out of all of the jnr welters for reasons mentioned above aswell as more defences of his title

But Pryor never lost a fight at that weight though...He decimated the division knocking out almost everybody.

I have to say this... I'm a big fan of Monzon and he's my definite number 2. But look at Greb's record. Now if you only rate fighters you can watch on film then go for Monzon, otherwise I think you have to go for Greb because he fought everyone and pretty much beat everyone.

In fact you could probably combine Halger and Monzon's record and Greb would still come out on top.

There is no question that Greb beat some very good competiton throughout his prolific career. It should be noted though that many of his wins weren't at the middleweight division. He was well over the 160 pound limit for many of them.

Of course judging him strictly as a middleweight, he still beat Mickey Walker, several other good middleweights, and was great at this weight class. However, Monzon and Hagler arguably had slightly better careers at this weight class.

It depends on how you judge it and how strict you want to be.

Many fighters fight a few pounds above their weight in non-title fights. When Greb fights at 163 or 165 I don't automatically assume he's now a Light heavy.

He has wins over (some of the multiple wins)

Loughran
McTigue
Smith
Gibbons
Meehan
Miske
Tunney
Dillon
Chip
Walker
Flowers

As well as a host of others. Greb is within touching distance of 160 for all these wins, and his final bout was at 160 so it was never as if he couldn't make the weight.

It depends on how you judge it and how strict you want to be.

Many fighters fight a few pounds above their weight in non-title fights. When Greb fights at 163 or 165 I don't automatically assume he's now a Light heavy.

He has wins over (some of the multiple wins)

Loughran
McTigue
Smith
Gibbons
Meehan
Miske
Tunney
Dillon
Chip
Walker
Flowers

As well as a host of others. Greb is within touching distance of 160 for all these wins, and his final bout was at 160 so it was never as if he couldn't make the weight.

I don't count wins for him as a middleweight that were above 160 becasue 160 is the limit. It's that simple. If he thought he could have beaten these guys while weighing 160 he would have done it.

However he would weigh in well over the limit because he knew that he would be more effective at 166 or whatever then 160. Had he been able to beat these guys at 160, then sure that should count in his favor. I don't see how you can call a guy that weighed even 3 pounds over the middleweight limit a middleweight for that fight.

I sort of see that if he weighed say 161 and his opponent weighed 161 as well, that Greb would have beat that guy at 160. Maybe I am being too nitpicky.

However, you have to draw the line somewhere. When rating Tunney at lightheavyweight, do we count his wins over Dempsey at heavyweight?
Does Ray Leonard's win over Hagler count when rating him as a welterweight?
Does Jimmy Ellis wins at heavyweight make him a great middleweight?