BoxRec

Hey gents

I have just finished reading Angelo Dundee's biogrpaphy "A view from the corner" and while it was ok, I did not really read a great deal of 'new' or superly interestng facts that I had not already come across. In a way I felt a bit sad that I spent $45 on it.

This got me thinking of how good an Eddie Futch bio would be.

I was wondering if there is anything on Futch ? Who is one of my favourite personalities and trainers a guy that seems damned interesting to read about.

Any titles or links guys ?

Thanks again

Kym

Perhaps Granberry will post his thoughts on Futch....

$45 bucks for the Dundee book, really?

yancey wrote:Perhaps Granberry will post his thoughts on Futch....

That's easy.

Self-promoting gasbag.

Trained Duane Bobick to last 58 seconds against Ken Norton (that includes the ten count).

Trained Michael Spinks to last 91 seconds against Mike Tyson (that includes the ten count).

He trained Bowe, Frazier, Norton. He helped Bowe beat Holyfield. In six fights with Ali he arguably won 3 and neither Frazier nor Norton were dominated. Most trainers would want a legacy like this.

Klee Gluckman wrote:He trained Bowe, Frazier, Norton. He helped Bowe beat Holyfield. In six fights with Ali he arguably won 3 and neither Frazier nor Norton were dominated. Most trainers would want a legacy like this.

Never mind reality! Never mind balance! Objectivity is for suckers. You'll never develope a credible agenda with that kind of honesty, Gluckman.

Klee Gluckman wrote:He trained Bowe, Frazier, Norton. He helped Bowe beat Holyfield. In six fights with Ali he arguably won 3 and neither Frazier nor Norton were dominated. Most trainers would want a legacy like this.

Futch was a phoney.

He was a gasbag who promoted his own made up background to the clueless newsmen who didn't have a clue what they were doing as they tried to "cover" boxing.

He told them that he knocked Kid Gavilan down in a sparring session.
(In the real world phoney Futch never had a SINGLE pro fight).
Bad choice on lying Futch's part but the clueless newsboys excitedly wrote his lies down.

Sugar Ray Robinson couldn't knock Gavilan down in two bitter fights.

Futch also said (with Joe Louis dead and not around to verify it)

that he, Futch, outboxed Louis so badly in gym workouts (why would heavyweight Louis be sparring with an AMATEUR WELTERWEIGHT ??????????????)

that Louis was amazed at his wonderful ability.

Raw Horsesh*t.

Futch was a phoney.

Futch tried to take credit for what Yank Durham did as Frazier's trainer.

Futch was a blowhard who was used to handle the newsmen during the Don King era.

After all, he was

old

black

and VERY kindly.

You wouldn't dare contest anything someone like that would say,

even if he was a constant liar.

His patter to the clueless newsmen was to sell himself, and they lapped it up,

and now the clueless who are compelled to post on "boxing" sites like this regurgitate Futch's lies about himself and his glorious background.

He was just great when he trained Duane Bobick to last 58 seconds against Ken Norton, wasn't he?
(The 58 seconds includes the ten count)

He was just great when he trained Michael Spinks to last 91 seconds against Ken Norton, wasn't he?
(The 91 seconds includes the ten count)

Futch got all the ink before those two fights, telling the clueless newsmen he was showing Bobick/Spinks SECRETS in SECRET TRAINING SESSIONS.

Most of the news stories before those two fights were on Futch--not the fighters--and the fact that the wonderful Eddie Futch was showing his fighter SECRETS in SECRET TRAINING SESSIONS.

Futch let poor Duane Bobick face the news media alone after the 58 second fiasco.

Futch was nowhere to be seen.

Swallow your Futch sewage, retards.

granberry, granberry, granberry, as humans we all have our good days and our bad days. You seem excited to the point of nirvana when you have the chance to revel in someones bad moments. Hell I'm no big fan of Futch but I suspect he has accomplished more than you and I combined in the boxing world. Well I know he accomplished more than me maybe you've eclipsed his accomplishments.

There is a new boxer named Zellenoff 'round these parts and he's lookin' for guidance. I'm going to send him your way, I think a team like that might be unstoppable.

One thing that does annoy me though is how the media often gives a trainer more credit than the fighter. It is as though that the fighter is a usless, mindless, thoughtless vehicle that is completely use less without a good trainer.

In the cases that Granberry pointed out above.

as for the Sugar ray stories and Louis ones I do not know about that.

What I do know about Futch is that he seemed pretty smart, he knew boxing and when he speaks you want to listen.

I would much rather listen to him or hear about him than read another Ali or Tyson book.

Yeah paid $45 Australian.

I wont even mention what I paid for the Teddy Atlas biography....

Granberry is full of crap (what else is new)

Show me any link/source where Futch claimed he beat up Louis in sparring . . .please, I'm all ears.

dempseyfire wrote:Granberry is full of crap (what else is new)

Show me any link/source where Futch claimed he beat up Louis in sparring . . .please, I'm all ears.

SHOVE THIS up your a**, dempseyfire:

Pages 295-296

JOE LOUIS The Great Black Hope by Richard Bak

Taylor Publishing Company: 1996

Robinson wrote:One thing that does annoy me though is how the media often gives a trainer more credit than the fighter. It is as though that the fighter is a usless, mindless, thoughtless vehicle that is completely use less without a good trainer.

In the cases that Granberry pointed out above.

as for the Sugar ray stories and Louis ones I do not know about that.

What I do know about Futch is that he seemed pretty smart, he knew boxing and when he speaks you want to listen.

I would much rather listen to him or hear about him than read another Ali or Tyson book.

Yeah paid $45 Australian.

I wont even mention what I paid for the Teddy Atlas biography....

Get yourself biographies of some REAL trainers (if they ever wrote them)

Like Jimmy DeForest, Tommy Ryan, Jack Blackburn, Whitey Bimstein, Charley Goldman, Skinny Davidson, Gene Buffalo, etc

Damn gran.....It's right there in black and white.....granberry did you have that page memorized or did you have to go look it up? Hell of a memory if you just regurgitated that by memory. But is this book to be depended upon for this bit of info?

And I wouldn't be desecrating a good book by placing pages of it up anyones orafice. Just isn't cost effective.

goldman and bimstein were the best in my view. my fave being whitey

harrygreb wrote:goldman and bimstein were the best in my view. my fave being whitey

What a pity there are no such books by the real trainers.

It is left for the blowhards and gasbags like Dundee and Futch to sell themselves and their inferior level.

What a crime so much of the real knowledge is lost.

"...I wont even mention what I paid for the Teddy Atlas biography...." - Robinson

Atlas has been a great trainer over the years. The book no good?

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DaveV17 wrote:Granberry, did Dundee have any fighters that he trained from early in their career who did well? All of the fighters I can think of that he had were trained by others and he got them after they were established. (Ali, Ellis, Forman, etc.)

He did have Ali from early on, but Ali was already an Olympic champion.

I heard repeatedly that Angelo Dundee WAS NOT a trainer.

He was a cornerman. And that is all he was.

He never trained anyone.

John Condon (over 40 years connected with Madison Square Garden boxing) told me that in detail. Condon died before he wrote a book about his long experience in boxing. He had described his book in detail to me and made me promise I would not use any of what he told me until his book came out.

It was Condon who told me that Chris Dundee was the lowest level character he had dealt with in all his years in boxing.

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DaveV17 wrote:Granberry,
If a "trainer" gets a guy who is already a well trained fighter like Ali, Bowe, Ellis, Frazier, Norton, etc. he won't be doing much "training." As you mentioned, a "cornerman" is more like it.

Did Eddie Futch or Angelo Dundee ever have a fighter that they trained from the start of their career to the top? I have nothing against either of them. I met both of them and both were nice people. But when you pointed out that neither were great trainers I started thinking about it and couldn't think of any fighters that either had that they trained from the beginning to the top.

If you were a fighter you would want to be connected with a guy like Dundee or Futch for their connections,

but you would have to get your knowledge of and education in boxing elsewhere.

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DaveV17 wrote:Granberry,
If a "trainer" gets a guy who is already a well trained fighter like Ali, Bowe, Ellis, Frazier, Norton, etc. he won't be doing much "training." As you mentioned, a "cornerman" is more like it.

Did Eddie Futch or Angelo Dundee ever have a fighter that they trained from the start of their career to the top? I have nothing against either of them. I met both of them and both were nice people. But when you pointed out that neither were great trainers I started thinking about it and couldn't think of any fighters that either had that they trained from the beginning to the top.

Dundee messed up a lot of fighters.

He got Quick Tillis knocked out by Pinklon Thomas by exorting Tillis to trade with Thomas (you could hear Dundee in the corner between rounds on TV).

That was stupidity. Tillis would have lost a decision in that fight at worst without Dundee's 'help.'

In Tony Chiaverini's corner in a fight with Benitez,

Dundee got hysterical when Chiaverini wasn't doing well and started screaming useless insults at Chiaverini (right on TV). That is the last thing a competent cornerman would do.

Dundee exposed his incompetence to do with boxing over and over as a commentator on TV fights. He repeatedly suggested that a fighter should be doing something which revealed he didn't have a clue what was going on.

I knew personally a couple fighters whose managers paid to bring in the exalted Eddie Futch for one fight. In both cases they told me afterwards that Futch had nothing to offer and was very definitely the opposite of the "kindly" picture painted of him by the lapdog media.

Both Dundee and Futch would run anywhere to pick up some bucks quickly with anyone who would pay them to be in a corner.

Emanuel Steward overtrained Tommy Hearns so badly for the first Leonard fight that Hearns was so dehydrated he wasn't even sweating under the hot ring lights during the fight.

Then Steward did it again when Hearns fought Hagler, even though Hearns got to make 160 for that fight.

Steward told inexperienced Caveman Lee to go right at Hagler in their title fight rather than start carefully and get his bearings. The result would not have been as bad for Lee if he had not had such idiotic advice.

Steward never really "trained" any fighters in the gym once his career got going. He just ran continuously from one place to the next to collect money for being in all kinds of fighters' corners.

Incompetence of trainers is a big part of what caused the death of boxing.

DaveV17 wrote:Granberry, Jack Blackburn must have been a superb trainer. Joe Louis had beautiful technique, most fighters couldn't shadow box with technique as good as Louis used in an actual fight.

Which fighters did those other trainers you mentioned train? Did any of them train Doug Jones? He is another fighter with near flawless technique.

Blackburn trained VERY DIFFERENT fighters with VERY DIFFERENT styles and aptitudes and brought out the best in all of them.

He gave a few lessons to Sammy Mandell early in Mandell's career

and Mandell said that he used what he learned from Blackburn to become the great boxer he was.

Lightweight champion Sammy Mandell had one of the most perfect defenses in the entire history of boxing. As champion he outpointed challengers Jimmy McLarnin and Tony Canzoneri by lopsided margins to keep his title. McLarnin and Canzoneri were losers in their title chances against Mandell, even though both were great fighters and great punchers who later won their titles with first round knockouts.
Against Mandell they were totally frustrated and ineffective.

Mandell was the opposite type of fighter from Joe Louis. He rarely threw a right hand. He was all left hand--and what a left hand it was. He was as fast on his feet as any fighter ever was. And what he did in close made it close to impossible to hit him. He was also a genius at stepping back from close quarters without getting hit. He had the most complete and close to impenetrable defense of any fighter I have seen.

If you can ever get a film of the two fights mentioned above, they are worth dissecting for each and every move Mandell makes at any moment in those fights.

Blackburn also trained Bud Taylor, a murderous puncher who stye was completely different from Mandell's.

DaveV17 wrote:Granberry, Jack Blackburn must have been a superb trainer. Joe Louis had beautiful technique, most fighters couldn't shadow box with technique as good as Louis used in an actual fight.

Which fighters did those other trainers you mentioned train? Did any of them train Doug Jones? He is another fighter with near flawless technique.

I don't know who trained Doug Jones, but he was fine fighter.

Ask Ali.

Ali looked inept in there with Jones, who was a head shorter than Ali and 25 pounds lighter.

It was Jones' bad luck that he ran into Harold Johnson in his chance at the 175 lb title.

Even though he never won the title. Jones was a better lightheavyweight than any fighter who held the lightheavyweight title since Johnson.

In fact Doug Jones beat the best 175 pound champion since Harold Johnson---Bob Foster.

Doug Jones' chin was so good that he lived through Foster's best shots and came on to stop him.

Harold Johnson told me that Jones had an amazing chin. "I tried to stop him," Johnson said. "But he had a hard head." Johnson told me that in his opinion Jones would have stopped Michael Spinks in 8 rounds or less. "He would have been too strong for him."

Compare Doug Jones' fights with Harold Johnson and Ali.

Against Johnson, Doug Jones was hard pressed to win a few rounds out of the 15, and was hurt and knocked through the ropes at the end of a later round.

Against Ali, who was 35 pounds or more heavier than the 175 pound Johnson, Doug Jones hurt Ali 15 seconds after the fight started with a right hand, hit Ali continuously with his left jab (which was twice as fast and much more accurate than Ali's) and showed that the much bigger Ali could not hurt him, while Ali was in danger from Jones at every moment.

Based on their performances against Doug Jones--WHO was the better fighter--- Harold Johnson or Ali?

The answer is Harold Johnson--by a lopsided margin.

granberry wrote:

DaveV17 wrote:Granberry, did Dundee have any fighters that he trained from early in their career who did well? All of the fighters I can think of that he had were trained by others and he got them after they were established. (Ali, Ellis, Forman, etc.)

He did have Ali from early on, but Ali was already an Olympic champion.

I heard repeatedly that Angelo Dundee WAS NOT a trainer.

He was a cornerman. And that is all he was.

He never trained anyone.

Interestingly, I agree.

Your description of Clay-Jones, however, speaks for itself. There's a great discrepancy between your reporting and what actually took place in the fight.

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