BoxRec

Who's your pick for the boxer with the shortest prime?

I'm nominating Mr Burger King himself (no, not Danny Williams :P ); Riddick 'Big Daddy' Bowe!

When was his prime?

I say 1992 & that's it really!

He fought brilliantly to beat Holyfield that year, but tarnished his legacy by ducking Lennox Lewis, then eating himself out of his title in 1993 & losing to Holyfield.

He came back to win the WBO trinket, but as we all know, that is a POS!

He looked to be on the way down in 1995 & he was completely shot by 1996, at aged 29!

Has any other high ranked fighter had such a short prime?

His prime came & went pretty quickly for Fernando Vargas.

Jimmy Young had 4 fights:

Ron Lyle--- Young won by lopsided decision

Ali--- Young won by lopsided decision

Ron Lyle--- Young won by lopsided decision

Foreman--- Young won by decision, knocked Foreman down in final round

That was it.

There's only one Donald Curry!

I thought he was going to become the greatest weltwerweight of all-time & before I had time to blink, he was getting KO'd by the likes of Lloyd Honeyghan!

He never really reached the stellar heights again, after 1986.

granberry wrote:Jimmy Young had 4 fights:

Ron Lyle--- Young won by lopsided decision

Ali--- Young won by lopsided decision

Ron Lyle--- Young won by lopsided decision

Foreman--- Young won by decision, knocked Foreman down in final round

That was it.

Good shouts.

Jimmy Young was like a lit match; burned for a few seconds, then blew out quickly, leaving you with charred remains & memories!!! :P

Syntax Error wrote:

granberry wrote:Jimmy Young had 4 fights:

Ron Lyle--- Young won by lopsided decision

Ali--- Young won by lopsided decision

Ron Lyle--- Young won by lopsided decision

Foreman--- Young won by decision, knocked Foreman down in final round

That was it.

Good shouts.

Jimmy Young was like a lit match; burned for a few seconds, then blew out quickly, leaving you with charred remains & memories!!! :P

Great analogy, Syntax.

And very sad.

People around Frazier's gym used to say when Young (who was no longer really training) would go out the door,

"He doesn't want to make a million dollars !"

Actually it was because his trainer-manager Bob Brown died and his trash level 'friends' from his neighborhood took over.

And the Don King manipulation, which took away the heart of numerous fighters.

Young was told, positively, by Don King, after the Foreman fight,
that he could make some money, but was not wanted as champion and never would be.
Young's longtime trainer Bob Brown lost control of Young at that same time and then died.

The Norton fight was a sham on Young's part.

Young had the best body attack to come along in years--Norton had a wasp waist (wrong for boxing) and a vulnerable midsection (since Ali didn't know how to throw a body punch, that's one reason Norton did well vs Ali)

and Young did not use his body attack. Young also spent long periods of time with his back on the ropes, doing nothing and letting Norton try to hit away at him. Young never fought like that in any of his real fights.

Watch the second round of that fight. Young forgets himeslf and staggers Norton with a right hand. Norton stands there with a lowered head, waiting to be finished off. But instead of following up, Young moves away from Norton like he was the one who was hurt. After a bit Norton comes forward, very tentatively, and then tries a few punches.

The stink in that fight was obvious as of that second round.

That fight was a Blinky Palermo-Don King special on Young's part.
He used maybe 10 % of what he was capable of doing against Norton.

The trash around Young which he allowed to affect him was disgusting, as of that fight.

.

granberry wrote:

Syntax Error wrote:

granberry wrote:Jimmy Young had 4 fights:

Ron Lyle--- Young won by lopsided decision

Ali--- Young won by lopsided decision

Ron Lyle--- Young won by lopsided decision

Foreman--- Young won by decision, knocked Foreman down in final round

That was it.

Good shouts.

Jimmy Young was like a lit match; burned for a few seconds, then blew out quickly, leaving you with charred remains & memories!!! :P

Great analogy, Syntax.

And very sad.

People around Frazier's gym used to say when Young (who was no longer really training) would go out the door,

"He doesn't want to make a million dollars !"

Actually it was because his trainer-manager Bob Brown died and his trash level 'friends' from his neighborhood took over.

And the Don King manipulation, which took away the heart of numerous fighters.

Young was told, positively, by Don King, after the Foreman fight,
that he could make some money, but was not wanted as champion and never would be.
Young's longtime trainer Bob Brown lost control of Young at that same time and then died.

The Norton fight was a sham on Young's part.

Young had the best body attack to come along in years--Norton had a wasp waist (wrong for boxing) and a vulnerable midsection (since Ali didn't know how to throw a body punch, that's one reason Norton did well vs Ali)

and Young did not use his body attack. Young also spent long periods of time with his back on the ropes, doing nothing and letting Norton try to hit away at him. Young never fought like that in any of his real fights.

Watch the second round of that fight. Young forgets himeslf and staggers Norton with a right hand. Norton stands there with a lowered head, waiting to be finished off. But instead of following up, Young moves away from Norton like he was the one who was hurt. After a bit Norton comes forward, very tentatively, and then tries a few punches.

The stink in that fight was obvious as of that second round.

That fight was a Blinky Palermo-Don King special on Young's part.
He used maybe 10 % of what he was capable of doing against Norton.

The trash around Young which he allowed to affect him was disgusting, as of that fight.

.

Your observations about Young are interesting. Especially about the element that was around him. I posted this before,but
I saw Young go into the tank against a very bad fighter here in San Diego,Clay Hodges. Young had about 4 fights as did Hodges. Young came out from Philly and nobody knew anything about him. But everyone knew Hodges was a stiff. Young has Hodges down twice in the first round and doesn't throw a punch for the next 5 rounds and loses a decision. After the first frame two old guys in suits turn around and want to bet me 20 bucks Hodges is going to win. After the last round I'm reaching for my wallet and the two old guys laugh and tell me to keep my money. The fight was fixed.

My question is how far back and how long was he involved with the wrong crowd? By the way,Hodges next fight is in LA and gets knocked out and his jaw broken by big muscled fughter by the name of Kenyata Huckinbill. It was Hodges last fight.

dagosd2000 wrote:

granberry wrote:

Syntax Error wrote: Good shouts.

Jimmy Young was like a lit match; burned for a few seconds, then blew out quickly, leaving you with charred remains & memories!!! :P

Great analogy, Syntax.

And very sad.

People around Frazier's gym used to say when Young (who was no longer really training) would go out the door,

"He doesn't want to make a million dollars !"

Actually it was because his trainer-manager Bob Brown died and his trash level 'friends' from his neighborhood took over.

And the Don King manipulation, which took away the heart of numerous fighters.

Young was told, positively, by Don King, after the Foreman fight,
that he could make some money, but was not wanted as champion and never would be.
Young's longtime trainer Bob Brown lost control of Young at that same time and then died.

The Norton fight was a sham on Young's part.

Young had the best body attack to come along in years--Norton had a wasp waist (wrong for boxing) and a vulnerable midsection (since Ali didn't know how to throw a body punch, that's one reason Norton did well vs Ali)

and Young did not use his body attack. Young also spent long periods of time with his back on the ropes, doing nothing and letting Norton try to hit away at him. Young never fought like that in any of his real fights.

Watch the second round of that fight. Young forgets himeslf and staggers Norton with a right hand. Norton stands there with a lowered head, waiting to be finished off. But instead of following up, Young moves away from Norton like he was the one who was hurt. After a bit Norton comes forward, very tentatively, and then tries a few punches.

The stink in that fight was obvious as of that second round.

That fight was a Blinky Palermo-Don King special on Young's part.
He used maybe 10 % of what he was capable of doing against Norton.

The trash around Young which he allowed to affect him was disgusting, as of that fight.

.

Your observations about Young are interesting. Especially about the element that was around him. I posted this before,but
I saw Young go into the tank against a very bad fighter here in San Diego,Clay Hodges. Young had about 4 fights as did Hodges. Young came out from Philly and nobody knew anything about him. But everyone knew Hodges was a stiff. Young has Hodges down twice in the first round and doesn't throw a punch for the next 5 rounds and loses a decision. After the first frame two old guys in suits turn around and want to bet me 20 bucks Hodges is going to win. After the last round I'm reaching for my wallet and the two old guys laugh and tell me to keep my money. The fight was fixed.

My question is how far back and how long was he involved with the wrong crowd? By the way,Hodges next fight is in LA and gets knocked out and his jaw broken by big muscled fughter by the name of Kenyata Huckinbill. It was Hodges last fight.

Blinky Parlermo was around several Philly gyms while Young was there.

He was an old man by that time, and liked to demonstrate some soft shoe steps that he said Sammy Davis Jr had taught him.

He may have looked harmless, but you would have to be stupid to think that.

The people who own a computer and post on sites like this

will never have a clue what goes on the real world where most fighters are manipulated like pawns and completely at the mercy of whoever runs things.

Fighters like Liston, Young, Benton, etc. knew the power of the mob.
They knew that they (the mob) WILL kill you.
They did as they were told.

Young had more ability in every aspect of boxing than anyone to come along in years. He showed only a small part of it and only for a short time.

Watching him NOT use what he had was exasperating and frustrating for those who actually knew the sport.

When Young hit the speed bag in a gym his hands were faster than any featherweight (rated fighters) who had used the bag earlier or later on the same day.

He also threw lightning combinations in sparring, but would only throw one punch at a time in an actual fight.

Young could have stopped Ali any time after the 12th round. I was sitting right there.

Young had Ron Lyle falling all over the place after 4-5 rounds of their 2nd fight, yet the fight went 12 rounds.

Young eased up after he knocked Foreman down in the last round of their fight.

Notice Liston in his fight with Nino Valdez. Liston did nothing for the first 2 rounds. Then he came out in the 3rd round and stopped Valdez immediately with body punches. My guess is he was instructed to have the fight go that long.

Liston did a similar thing against Willie Besmanoff.

Benton's fight against Rubin Carter was a fake. Benton stood and posed, letting Carter peck away respectfully at him with a jab and "win" a decision. After the fight Jack McKinney, a Philly boxing guy, came into Benton's dressing room and slapped Benton right across the face and said, "Georgie, you threw that fight." Benton said and did nothing in response.

The pathetic, fairy tale, politically correct world of the clueless internet Ali worshippers is not the real world.

granberry, I have knowledge of the mob and how they work.

In the music business a fella by the name of Walter Scott (let's say "an associate" of mine) singer for Bob Kuban and the In Men.....singer of a song known as "The Cheater" got into some trouble with the mob and ended up buried in a well for many years on his own property before finally being discovered. In what you may know to be the fashion his wife was "inculcated"....I assume you know what that means.

Anyway it's all on the record. I know they do things that "change" things. But once one has a little of that knowledge it's easy to "invent" a Chili Palmer and go about the business of "docudramatizing" reality.

You make Young sound like some sort of Superman who was carefully manipulated with "mob kryptonite". It's certainly a great story and sellable to some. Seems like something that there would be more info in writing somewhere.

Has anyone written about this? Other than you on this internet site? If it's real there will be some coraboration somewhere. It's just too tempting of a story to keep in a can. Especially if it has legs. Do you think there would be consequences even today if the truth comes out?

Times have changed, it may be time to get the facts out...if indeed they are facts. granberry, I'm not saying they are not facts, but you are the only source of this that I am aware of. Has anyone else heard bits and pieces of this that might give this some cred?

edit

Fighters with short primes include
Mike Tyson (well chronicled)
Riddick Bowe
Razor Ruddock (finished by the Tyson fights)
Joe Frazier (shortish, past his prime before he was 30)
Meldrick Taylor
Mark Breland
Lloyd Honeyghan
Don Curry (seems to be a thing about mid-80s welters)
Fernando Vargas
John Mugabi (not the same after Hagler)
Jermain Taylor (not sure he ever had a prime)
Michael Moorer (shortish prime)
John Conteh

dr_devious wrote:Fighters with short primes include
Mike Tyson (well chronicled)
Riddick Bowe
Razor Ruddock (finished by the Tyson fights)
Joe Frazier (shortish, past his prime before he was 30)
Meldrick Taylor
Mark Breland
Lloyd Honeyghan
Don Curry (seems to be a thing about mid-80s welters)
Fernando Vargas
John Mugabi (not the same after Hagler)
Jermain Taylor (not sure he ever had a prime)
Michael Moorer (shortish prime)
John Conteh

Good.

Some others---

Terry McGovern

Jack Dempsey--his prime was 1917--1919

Lew Jenkins

Pipino Cuevas

DaveV17 wrote:Even the "legal" parts of boxing are questionable. Don't know how many of you are aware that there are different ways of starting a fighter's career.

One, the fighter and his management take fights wherever available. The promoter will set up a good, competitive fight and the promoter will pay the purse of both fighters. The prospect may have to fight some tough opposition if he follows that course. He may not have an impressive record. Many of the good, tough fighters who spring "surprises" have started their career this way.

The other way is that the boxer's management team pays for the fighter's opponents. This is common practice and allows the fighter to build an outstanding record. The promoter will allow the fight to be on his show, he just won't pay the fighter's purses since it probably will not be a competitive fight. Using this method, the boxer's management finds an opponent and pays his expenses and purse. The fighter doesn't "throw" the fight, but he is usually just an opponent. Depending on how much trouble the management team wants to go to, they can match their fighter against a guy who has an easy style for their man, they can just match him with a no hope opponent, or they can look for name opponents who have drug problems, divorce problems, etc. who are not training but will take a fight for the money.

Very interesting post.

I know of two fighters who had what amounted to fakes with Cooney.

When you see a fighter fighting completely out of character for what is well known he can do, you know something stinks.

The Armando Muniz-Ray Leonard fight was an obvious fake on Muniz' part.

The second Ali-Spinks fight was an obvious fake.
Georgie Benton walked out of Spinks' corner and out of the arena after 6 rounds.

Some of our purported boxing "historians" should quote Benton on that 'fight' sometime.

I remember Armando Muniz sitting on his stool after the 7th round with his fight with Leonard saying he had arthritis in his shoulder. I also remember Muniz's second fight with Napoles where he almost bled to death. No sore shoulder that night. It's funny,but Muniz's fight with Leonard,I thought Armando was hurting Leonard downstairs. That's how he must have hurt his shoulder.

"Great analogy, Syntax.

And very sad.

People around Frazier's gym used to say when Young (who was no longer really training) would go out the door,

"He doesn't want to make a million dollars !"

Actually it was because his trainer-manager Bob Brown died and his trash level 'friends' from his neighborhood took over.

And the Don King manipulation, which took away the heart of numerous fighters.

Young was told, positively, by Don King, after the Foreman fight,
that he could make some money, but was not wanted as champion and never would be.
Young's longtime trainer Bob Brown lost control of Young at that same time and then died.

The Norton fight was a sham on Young's part.

Young had the best body attack to come along in years--Norton had a wasp waist (wrong for boxing) and a vulnerable midsection (since Ali didn't know how to throw a body punch, that's one reason Norton did well vs Ali)

and Young did not use his body attack. Young also spent long periods of time with his back on the ropes, doing nothing and letting Norton try to hit away at him. Young never fought like that in any of his real fights.

Watch the second round of that fight. Young forgets himeslf and staggers Norton with a right hand. Norton stands there with a lowered head, waiting to be finished off. But instead of following up, Young moves away from Norton like he was the one who was hurt. After a bit Norton comes forward, very tentatively, and then tries a few punches.

The stink in that fight was obvious as of that second round.

That fight was a Blinky Palermo-Don King special on Young's part.
He used maybe 10 % of what he was capable of doing against Norton.

The trash around Young which he allowed to affect him was disgusting, as of that fight." - Gran

Another Young defeat (This one against a class opponent) explained away by a fix. Another, "sham" to wash away the agony.

Poor Granberry is in agony when his hero Jimmy Young (A great fighter, who had his limitations nonetheless) is beaten. He is the quickest & most elaborate to make excuses. Swallow the truth, Granberry.

Keep the hypocrisy, propaganda & bias flowing, half-wit

dagosd2000 wrote:I remember Armando Muniz sitting on his stool after the 7th round with his fight with Leonard saying he had arthritis in his shoulder. I also remember Muniz's second fight with Napoles where he almost bled to death. No sore shoulder that night. It's funny,but Muniz's fight with Leonard,I thought Armando was hurting Leonard downstairs. That's how he must have hurt his shoulder.

Muniz was retired. Then it was announced he was fighting Leonard.

I watched.

Muniz let Leonard cuff him around for a few rounds.

Then, about the 5th round Muniz came out and hit Leonard with (ONLY) body punches.

Leonard stopped fighting--and back in his corner they actually showed him complaining bitterly.

Muniz was showing the punk what would happen if he was fighting for real.

Next round was back to Leonard cuffing around a docile Muniz.

Then Muniz quit in his corner WITH A SORE SHOULDER.

In the interview after the fight Muniz was in a jolly mood,
until shill Chris Shenkle said, "So you would say Leonard is [great--or something like that]."

The smile came off Muniz' face and he said, "I always said Napoles was the best puncher I fought."

Then Muniz was back to a jolly mood and said with a laugh, "If anyone else wants to pay me, I'll fight."

Liston-Clay-------------------- Armando Muniz-Leonard-

About the 5th round the "loser" throws ONLY body shots, not a SINGLE head shot.

The very next round the 'loser' who showed so much energy in the previous round goes back to doing nothing.

Then a bit later the 'loser' quits in his corner with a "sore shoulder."

And in each case Angelo Dundee (the tip of the iceberg) is in the 'winner's' corner.

granberry wrote:

dagosd2000 wrote:I remember Armando Muniz sitting on his stool after the 7th round with his fight with Leonard saying he had arthritis in his shoulder. I also remember Muniz's second fight with Napoles where he almost bled to death. No sore shoulder that night. It's funny,but Muniz's fight with Leonard,I thought Armando was hurting Leonard downstairs. That's how he must have hurt his shoulder.

Muniz was retired. Then it was announced he was fighting Leonard.

I watched.

Muniz let Leonard cuff him around for a few rounds.

Then, about the 5th round Muniz came out and hit Leonard with (ONLY) body punches.

Leonard stopped fighting--and back in his corner they actually showed him complaining bitterly.

Muniz was showing the punk what would happen if he was fighting for real.

Next round was back to Leonard cuffing around a docile Muniz.

Then Muniz quit in his corner WITH A SORE SHOULDER.

In the interview after the fight Muniz was in a jolly mood,
until shill Chris Shenkle said, "So you would say Leonard is [great--or something like that]."

The smile came off Muniz' face and he said, "I always said Napoles was the best puncher I fought."

Then Muniz was back to a jolly mood and said with a laugh, "If anyone else wants to pay me, I'll fight."

Liston-Clay-------------------- Armando Muniz-Leonard-

About the 5th round the "loser" throws ONLY body shots, not a SINGLE head shot.

The very next round the 'loser' who showed so much energy in the previous round goes back to doing nothing.

Then a bit later the 'loser' quits in his corner with a "sore shoulder."

And in each case Angelo Dundee (the tip of the iceberg) is in the 'winner's' corner.

Ok I'm probably going to hear about this,but I was with my father sitting ringside when Luis Rodriguez was fighting the Mexican fighter Raphael Guttierez. The winner was to fight Benvenuti for the title. I'd never seen Gutierrez fight,but I'd watched Rodriguez plenty. I knew he was on the downside,but figured he had enough in the tank to beat the Mexican. Well for 5 or 6 rounds Gutierrez was giving Louie a pretty good going over. Gutierrez,I remember, was very strong. Then I forget what round(6th or 7th) Rodriguez throws a left hook from Oxnard and Gutierrez is flat on his back---out cold.

I remember my father wanted to especially watch this fight. It was unusual because my father had quit going to the fights since we had moved from Chicago 20 years ago. He had a couple of fighters in Tijuana and he was at those fights,but nothing recent had interested him. Well Angelo Dundee is climbing down through the ropes with The "Nose" and my father walks up to Dundee,puts his arm around him and says"Well Ange,you're gonna get your shot". Dundee smiles at my father and says"Goombadil"(good friend) They walk with my father's arm still wrapped around Dundee's shoulder into the dressing room. I'm standing there like a hobo. Later that night I remember my father calling Frank La Porte in Chicago. I remember my father saying"Everything is 'jake' "

After Rodriguez lost his fight with Benvenuti,he fought a rematch with Gutierrez and was knocked out.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:"Great analogy, Syntax.

And very sad.

People around Frazier's gym used to say when Young (who was no longer really training) would go out the door,

"He doesn't want to make a million dollars !"

Actually it was because his trainer-manager Bob Brown died and his trash level 'friends' from his neighborhood took over.

And the Don King manipulation, which took away the heart of numerous fighters.

Young was told, positively, by Don King, after the Foreman fight,
that he could make some money, but was not wanted as champion and never would be.
Young's longtime trainer Bob Brown lost control of Young at that same time and then died.

The Norton fight was a sham on Young's part.

Young had the best body attack to come along in years--Norton had a wasp waist (wrong for boxing) and a vulnerable midsection (since Ali didn't know how to throw a body punch, that's one reason Norton did well vs Ali)

and Young did not use his body attack. Young also spent long periods of time with his back on the ropes, doing nothing and letting Norton try to hit away at him. Young never fought like that in any of his real fights.

Watch the second round of that fight. Young forgets himeslf and staggers Norton with a right hand. Norton stands there with a lowered head, waiting to be finished off. But instead of following up, Young moves away from Norton like he was the one who was hurt. After a bit Norton comes forward, very tentatively, and then tries a few punches.

The stink in that fight was obvious as of that second round.

That fight was a Blinky Palermo-Don King special on Young's part.
He used maybe 10 % of what he was capable of doing against Norton.

The trash around Young which he allowed to affect him was disgusting, as of that fight." - Gran

Another Young defeat (This one against a class opponent) explained away by a fix. Another, "sham" to wash away the agony.

Poor Granberry is in agony when his hero Jimmy Young (A great fighter, who had his limitations nonetheless) is beaten. He is the quickest & most elaborate to make excuses. Swallow the truth, Granberry.

Keep the hypocrisy, propaganda & bias flowing, half-wit

He explains away any defeat of a fighter he likes as a 'tank job' or 'fix'.

How anyone could take it seriously is just astonishing.

To me Young is the prototype of the 80s ABC wasted generation fighters wgho had so much talented, but were so inconsistent inside of the ropes. They seemed to have external forces and demons affecting how they perform.

I like Young and he frustates me to watch at times. interesting tales told about him above.

His jab was always odd.

Henry Armstrong
Aaron Pryor
Meldrick Taylor

Robinson wrote:To me Young is the prototype of the 80s ABC wasted generation fighters wgho had so much talented, but were so inconsistent inside of the ropes. They seemed to have external forces and demons affecting how they perform.

I like Young and he frustates me to watch at times. interesting tales told about him above.

His jab was always odd.

He landed it at will against Ali.

It was embarrassing to watch. Ali had NO defense against it.

Very true. I never said it was in-effective, just odd.

I havent watched the Young v Ali fight in ages.

Just watched his bout vs Cooney on the weekend.
That cut looked bad, more so becuase of the amount
of blood and the film stock I had. A very real cut all the
same.

naseem hamed

..short prime....leon spinks..

..shortest prime...buster douglas.....one fight.

Jaclem wrote:
..shortest prime...buster douglas.....one fight.

Good one.