BoxRec

Bill Richmond bought the Horse and Dolphin Pub in/near Leicester Square. In 1810. Does anyone know where this was (the pub not Leicester Square)?

Also, I remember a RING magazine article once mentioning a bare-knucle title fight in OCKENDON, ESSEX, ENGLAND. Does anyone know where I can find any more info on this?

As far as the pub is concerned, I have no clue, but Bill Richmond The Black Terror, would later own and operate a school of "manly arts" that taught wrestling, boxing and fencing [much like James Figg had done]. He also fought Tom Cribb years before Tom Mulineaux did, and was even Mulineaux's manager/trainer for a time.

HomicideHenry wrote:As far as the pub is concerned, I have no clue, but Bill Richmond The Black Terror, would later own and operate a school of "manly arts" that taught wrestling, boxing and fencing [much like James Figg had done]. He also fought Tom Cribb years before Tom Mulineaux did, and was even Mulineaux's manager/trainer for a time.

Thanks for that mate - I was aware of that but cheers. Anyone know of a good website for that era? Ive been looking at CBZ's pages, obv they have gaps

Guess you guys both saw the documentary on him the other night,
didnt it get knocked down to make way for nelsons column?

Boxing.Gloves wrote:Guess you guys both saw the documentary on him the other night,
didnt it get knocked down to make way for nelsons column?

I did see the docu yes, someone on British flagged it up. Sorry if I gave the impression this was some long-held knowledge, I've just had my curiosity picqued.

I didnt hear them say anything about the pub after Richardson, also most sources say Leicester Square, surely they would have said if it was Trafalgar Square?

I'm not sure they didn't get it wrong, if they said Richmond bought a pub. Bob Gregson was keeping a pub near Holborn in 1810, where Richmond was one of the visitors, together with Cribb, Gully, Jackson and other famous pugilists. The name of the pub is not given in the source I have, but depending what place you take as the reference point, "near Holborn" is pretty much the same as "near Leicester Square", so it could be the same pub.

Senya13 wrote:I'm not sure they didn't get it wrong, if they said Richmond bought a pub. Bob Gregson was keeping a pub near Holborn in 1810, where Richmond was one of the visitors, together with Cribb, Gully, Jackson and other famous pugilists. The name of the pub is not given in the source I have, but depending what place you take as the reference point, "near Holborn" is pretty much the same as "near Leicester Square", so it could be the same pub.

CHEERS MATE - Lots of sites list the info as well - the Horse and Dolphin pub, so Im sure it must have existed and that he owned it. I just wondered where it once stood or what occupies its building now.

In 1812, Pierce Egan refers to Richmond as the former owner of the Horse & Dolphin --

Kevin Smith, in black Genesis, says Richmond bought the pub in 1807 and it was located on St. Martin Street and was right next door to the Five Courts.

Kevin's book is a must have for anyone interested in the era. Google it!

Mike DeLisa, Cyber Boxing Zone

Game Chicken also was keeping a pub, at least in 1806, near Bristol. Sounds like a popular second profession among pugilists :)

delisa wrote:In 1812, Pierce Egan refers to Richmond as the former owner of the Horse & Dolphin --

Kevin Smith, in black Genesis, says Richmond bought the pub in 1807 and it was located on St. Martin Street and was right next door to the Five Courts.

Kevin's book is a must have for anyone interested in the era. Google it!

Mike DeLisa, Cyber Boxing Zone

Thankyou.

delisa wrote:Kevin's book is a must have for anyone interested in the era.

Anybody who's going to use the boxers' records from the appendix of that book should be cautious though. It contains some inaccuracies, and should be cross-checked against the text in the corresponding chapter of the book, or against some other works of reference.

For example (I only cross-checked Richmond and Molineaux):

Bill Richmond
Incorrect date of Tom Shelton fight given as 1815-08-11, the chapter about Richmond contains correct date August 1.
Incorrect purse for 1810-05-01 fight with Jack Power given as 18 pounds both in the appendix and in the text, while the correct sum is 20 pounds, of which the winner got 18, and the loser 2 pounds (or '40 shillings' as can be seen in multiple primary and secondary sources - Sporting Magazine, Pancratia, Pugilistica).

Tom Molineaux
Incorrect date of Jack Carter fight given as 1813-04-23, the chapter correctly gives it as April 2.
Incorrect result of 1814-05-27 meeting with Fuller, given as NC8, while it should be D(8min). In the rest of the records a 'D' is used whenever the fight was interrupted, only this fight has a 'NC' instead, and one other bout has a 'Stpd. Police' as the result.

Are you sure about the April 2 date for Molineaux-Carter.

I recall doing some research some time ago -- and i include the note on my record for Tom, that he was arrested for debt on March 31 at the instigation of Bill Richmond -- a fascinating tid-bit in and of itself.

I actually tried but couldnt find the legal papers for Richmond's suit against moolineaux -- I am sure they exist though.

In any event, given the legal issues, was he out of jail and fighting within a couple of days?

Can you give me a source for the date -- I think i used the Times of London in my record -- http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/tom-mol.htm

Caveat -- I am working from memory and the Molineaux record is something I worked on when I first created the CBZ way back when!

The chapter about Molineaux in Kevin's book gives the date correctly as April 2, it is only in the appendix in the same book that he has the date wrong (and the same errors I listed are in their CBZ records, but I will get to that eventually, I sent Tracy some corrections to bareknuckles champs records yesterday, and going to continue cross-checking them when I have time).

The Sporting Magazine, series I, v. XLII, April 1813, pp.24-26:
BOXING.
----
Two battles have been fought this month, between professors ranking high on the list of pugilists.--The first of them, which took place on Friday, the 2d of April, was between
molineaux and carter.
This battle had excited much interest ; the place of combat was situated in Gloucestershire, six miles from Banbury, ...

Pugilistica, vol. I, p. 283:
Richmond was now at war to the knife with Molineaux, and made a match for Carter to fight his late protege for 100 guineas, on Friday, the 2nd April, 1813, when the men met at Remington, Gloucestershire, six miles from Banbury, at the junction of four counties.

Another example of the same unfortunate trend.

p.179
John Kendrick
1822
Mar 8 Dick Acton, Moulsey Hurst L32(35min)

p. 86
He was not allowed to rest on his laurels for long however and he and Acton were re-matched the following February.


The fight was on Febuary 28, 1822.

This thread is a few years old, but users might be interested in this article in which I pinpoint where Bill Richmond's Horse and Dolphin pub was located.
http://billrichmond.blogspot.co.uk/2015 ... lphin.html

My biography of Bill is published in August
https://www.amberley-books.com/richmond-unchained.html

lgw007 wrote: ↑07 Jun 2015, 14:16 This thread is a few years old, but users might be interested in this article in which I pinpoint where Bill Richmond's Horse and Dolphin pub was located.
http://billrichmond.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/the-richmond-sites-horse-and-dolphin.html

My biography of Bill is published in August
https://www.amberley-books.com/richmond-unchained.html

Has anyone read this book?

@matt___s wrote: ↑12 Feb 2008, 13:23 Bill Richmond bought the Horse and Dolphin Pub in/near Leicester Square. In 1810. Does anyone know where this was (the pub not Leicester Square)?

https://www.layersoflondon.org/map/reco ... fields-wc2

delisa wrote: ↑14 Feb 2008, 00:53 In 1812, Pierce Egan refers to Richmond as the former owner of the Horse & Dolphin --

Kevin Smith, in black Genesis, says Richmond bought the pub in 1807 and it was located on St. Martin Street and was right next door to the Five Courts.

Kevin's book is a must have for anyone interested in the era. Google it!

Mike DeLisa, Cyber Boxing Zone

Ive visited the area a few times trying to work out where the Fives Court would have been. There's a painting of the interior depicting a gloved match from the period but it looks enourmous.