BoxRec

we've had problems deciding if heavys belong in the pound for pound list so i want to start a heavy page. who's your top 3? mine:

1. ali
2. louis
3. j. johnson

most underrated: lennox

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. George Foreman

I place more emphasis on who-would-beat-who than accomplishment, but both are factors for me. I think anyone posting a list should also state briefly their criteria, as I did. For accomplishment, IMO Ali shades Louis, but I think in a fight that could go either way, Louis might just win three outta five against Ali.

I'm sure I'll get stick for Foreman placing so high (& I will admit, I'm a big fan) but it seems to me he could beat any of the top Heavyweights (& they could, in turn, beat him just as often) so I couple his incredibly-high early KO ratio (even against top fighters) with his excellent string of accomplishments. See, if I had to bet, I would take Liston to beat Foreman, but it could very easily go Foreman's way as well, & given his accolades far outweigh Liston's, Foreman places higher.

I am willing to interchange Louis & Ali, though above is my preferred placing, & I can see someone dropping Foreman for the likes of Holmes, Marciano, Dempsey etc.

i agree with foreman being very high on the list. he has what i consider to be the most amazing accomplishment in the history of boxing. when he beat moorer, he regained the heavyweight title that he lost 20 years and 1 week before. that is stuff of legends.

1. Ali

2. Louis
3. Johnson

Ali is ahead of Louis in achievements and head to head. If I went on head to head I would rank Liston and Foreman and perhaps even Holmes and Tyson ahead of Louis.

why are you doing this? It's like begging for the g-man to come running in here and arrest us all. In order to bring sense to this I will offer up this list for consideration.

1. Jimmy Young
2. Sonny Liston
3. Doug Jones

1. Muhammad Ali/ Joe Louis

2. Jack Johnson

3. Rocky Marciano


Johnson was in my opinion the greatest defensive heavyweight champion of all time, and for his era, there was no one who was better or even seemingly came close to upsetting him. That is why I rank him on the top three, that and he is one of very few men I could actually see in a prime against prime scenario who could have defeated Ali.

Joe Louis, I ranked along side Ali, based on the fact he done the most with the heavyweight title and his record of 25 defenses still stands, and that has been over 60 years ago; while his opponents have been under-valued by most fans and critics today in comparison to Ali's, there has never been a champion more beloved and admired than Joe Louis. He was arguably the greatest heavyweight from the waist up.

Rocky Marciano, is both the most under-rated and most over-rated heavyweight champion in history. His 49-0, like Louis's 25 defenses, is still a record in our sport; some undermine this accomplishment by saying Ali, Frazier, etc could have went undefeated in Marciano's era as well but he is still the only undefeated champion in history and not even Larry Holmes in an era just as bad off as Marciano's was able to match the feat; he was also one of the greatest body punchers and hardest hitting champions of all time, he also over came all odds of a short reach, late start, and being under-sized; also gets credit for doing the greatest KO of all time. Best way I've described the Rock has been, that his style was very much beatable, but the man himself wasn't.

Honorable Mention: Jim Jeffries; in my opinion, if the rules and regulations stayed the same with 45 round championship bouts and the like, in his prime, I do not believe there is any Heavyweight champion, Ali included, who could have defeated the mighty Jim Jeffries.

HomicideHenry wrote:1. Muhammad Ali/ Joe Louis

2. Jack Johnson

3. Rocky Marciano


Johnson was in my opinion the greatest defensive heavyweight champion of all time, and for his era, there was no one who was better or even seemingly came close to upsetting him. That is why I rank him on the top three, that and he is one of very few men I could actually see in a prime against prime scenario who could have defeated Ali.

Joe Louis, I ranked along side Ali, based on the fact he done the most with the heavyweight title and his record of 25 defenses still stands, and that has been over 60 years ago; while his opponents have been under-valued by most fans and critics today in comparison to Ali's, there has never been a champion more beloved and admired than Joe Louis. He was arguably the greatest heavyweight from the waist up.

Rocky Marciano, is both the most under-rated and most over-rated heavyweight champion in history. His 49-0, like Louis's 25 defenses, is still a record in our sport; some undermine this accomplishment by saying Ali, Frazier, etc could have went undefeated in Marciano's era as well but he is still the only undefeated champion in history and not even Larry Holmes in an era just as bad off as Marciano's was able to match the feat; he was also one of the greatest body punchers and hardest hitting champions of all time, he also over came all odds of a short reach, late start, and being under-sized; also gets credit for doing the greatest KO of all time. Best way I've described the Rock has been, that his style was very much beatable, but the man himself wasn't.

Honorable Mention: Jim Jeffries; in my opinion, if the rules and regulations stayed the same with 45 round championship bouts and the like, in his prime, I do not believe there is any Heavyweight champion, Ali included, who could have defeated the mighty Jim Jeffries.

Nice post, Henry (I like your description of Marciano, too), but you've hedged. You're gonna have to drop one of those four guys off your list. Sorry, that's business 8)

Ali
Louis
Johnson

All could beat one another.

Just outside is Holmes. After that I think there's a group to choose from (Dempsey, Frazier, Foreman, Liston)

bjermaine wrote:i agree with foreman being very high on the list. he has what i consider to be the most amazing accomplishment in the history of boxing. when he beat moorer, he regained the heavyweight title that he lost 20 years and 1 week before. that is stuff of legends.

Foreman is a great shout.

He was champ in the 2 golden eras of the division; an astonishing twenty years apart.

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. George Foreman

Take away Foreman's win over Moorer and I'm not sure he'd make my top 10.

Joe Louis
Mike Tyson
Jersey Joe Walcott

Ezzard wrote:Ali
Louis
Johnson

All could beat one another.

Just outside is Holmes. After that I think there's a group to choose from (Dempsey, Frazier, Foreman, Liston)

We're on the same page. Although I'm not sure Holmes makes #4 for me. I think Holmes, Dempsey, Foreman, and arguably Frazier are practically interchangeable.

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
I've got Holmes only a fraction ahead of Jack Johnson, these 4 make up the heavyweight premier league imo

dempseyfire wrote:

Ezzard wrote:Ali
Louis
Johnson

All could beat one another.

Just outside is Holmes. After that I think there's a group to choose from (Dempsey, Frazier, Foreman, Liston)

We're on the same page. Although I'm not sure Holmes makes #4 for me. I think Holmes, Dempsey, Foreman, and arguably Frazier are practically interchangeable.

I think that's fair enough. Most people seem to be going with these 3/4

I still have a few DVDs to get through before I am happy with doing a list..got an idea who I would pick though.

Curious however...

How many times did Jefferies go 45 rounds ? And how many times did he best guys that were Similar style, size etc to guys that would be say in a generic top 10 ATG list.

Also... sure Johnson was a great counter fighter and defensive boxer when he fought, but he never faced any one that was anything like a more modern boxer.

Kym

I place more emphasis on who-would-beat-who than accomplishment, but both are factors for me.

1. Ali
2. Tyson
3. Louis

It doesnt matter if he went 45 rounds or not, its simply the matter that the duration was there. Had Jeffries been in a scheduled 45 rounder with any champion in history, sooner or later in those 45 rounds, he would have ended up the victor. He managed to go 20+ rounds on quite a few occassions, so I believe he's qualified if anything to have done so. Mind you, his first bout went 14 three minute rounds, so its not like he wouldnt or didnt have the endurance from the start. Corbett chopped him up for 22 rounds before the kayo in the 23rd, Sharkey wasnt able to thwart him in 20 rounds and later 25, nor was Choynski able to do so.

In his prime, I believe Jeffries could have soaked up any shot from any champion, and could have worn them out, if not by the power of his punches, or by the ferocity of his style...it would have been by his toughness and conditioning. He might lose every single round to a Johnson, Ali, Tunney type for the first 15-20-25 rounds...but in my mind, it would have caught up to them, and he would have been the victor.


As far as Johnson is concerned, ask Jack Dempsey who called Johnson the greatest "glove blocker" he had ever seen, meaning that nobody could land a shot on him, that he brushed away his opponents blows on his gloves. Joe Louis was told by Jack Blackburn that Johnson, in his honest opinion, would have been the only man [this was before Ali came around] to have defeated him (Louis). Muhammad Ali for all intents and purposes copied alot of his style from Walcott and Johnson [remember the anchor punch?] and always stated that other than himself he felt Johnson was the greatest of all time.

I think Jeffries is a greta boxer and I respect Homocide's rationale but I'm not sure Jeffries could have soaked up 20 rounds of punishment from Ali as he did Corbett.

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Foreman


I generally go by achievement because it's more objective than "Who-beats-who" and thus less fallible to argument, especially because if one was considering ability morseo than achievement then you'd have guys like David Tua and Ike Ibeabuchi and Vitali Klitschko in the top ranks, guys who in their primes were pretty incredible as far as their abilities but who really didn't achieve that much either because they burned out quick and/or never really got a chance for longevity because of extenuating circumstances. The top 2 spots seem very static to me, as in anybody with an extended knowledge of boxing should probably have Ali and Louis 1 and 2 regardless of who's ahead. The third spot I think is pretty interchangable though because there are plenty of arguments and counter-arguments for who deserves it the most between guys like Foreman, Holmes, Johnson, Marciano and to a slightly lesser extent Dempsey, Liston Tyson, Walcott, and Frazier could conceivably get put there, or even Holyfield and Lewis. The fact is there's SO many great Heavyweight champions that one person's list could radically differe from anothers depending on generational bias and general idea and understanding of each fighter and the opponents they beat. I mean I could easily see somebody arguing that Holyfield defeating Riddick Bowe stands amongst one of the greatest feats in HW history along with the best opponents that say, Jack Johnson beat.

Due to all of those circumstances, I find it personally difficult to rank the entire history of fighters without taking a lot of time to think about it, and even then I could very easily change my mind as to who I thought achieved more at any given time. And as far as ability, forget about it, because iwhile it's difficult for me to imagine too many fighters being able to nuetralize Lewis' power and reach, I could easily imagine a prime Tyson or Marciano getting in there and possibly cracking his chin, so there's even more variables to mull and be confused over.

I think Jeffries is a greta boxer and I respect Homocide's rationale but I'm not sure Jeffries could have soaked up 20 rounds of punishment from Ali as he did Corbett.

If Jeffries could take a beating from Fitzsimmons for a combined 20 rounds with cuts over both cheek bones and eyes and broken nose, could take 45 rounds of the same from Sharkey, take 33 rounds of Corbett, and be able to take 15 rounds of Jack Johnson when he was far passed his best...I do not see why on God's green earth why he couldnt surely have taken Ali's slashing offense for the same amount of time.

And who's to say Ali could have went 20 rounds anyways, when he was in an era of 15 rounders, and if Joe Frazier gave him hell three times when Frazier fought in the same style as Jeffries [and mind you Jeffries was much bigger than Frazier, more conditioned, wasnt the slow plodder peoples made him out to be either, and was more powerful] I dont see why Jeffries couldn't eventually wear Ali down and out once the first 15 rounds were completed.

I am sure Jeffries would been cut up bad, out pointed severely for those 15 rounds, that's a given, but its not like Jeffries couldnt take a beating and come back from a battering, as he proven he could time and time again. Ali proved he could take punishment as well from monsters like Foreman, but George proved he could only go eight rounds full out, while Jeffries could go on and on for 25 rounds, possibly more if the round duration was there.

Give it up, Henry. You could schedule it for a thousand rounds & most people would still back Ali to win a unanimous decision. He's untouchable.

bjermaine wrote:we've had problems deciding if heavys belong in the pound for pound list so i want to start a heavy page. who's your top 3? mine:

1. ali
2. louis
3. j. johnson

most underrated: lennox

I suscribe to this list.

Yeah, when it comes to Ali, you might as well place him on the level as Hercules, Atlas, John Henry, Paul Bunyan and other creatures of mythology. Am surprised the Ali fanatics haven't truly bought into the idea that Ali really could have defeated Superman like the DC comic special proposed back in the 1970's.

HomicideHenry wrote:Yeah, when it comes to Ali, you might as well place him on the level as Hercules, Atlas, John Henry, Paul Bunyan and other creatures of mythology. Am surprised the Ali fanatics haven't truly bought into the idea that Ali really could have defeated Superman like the DC comic special proposed back in the 1970's.

What are you talking about, defeating superman -- Ali IS superman.