BoxRec

Having just read the Holmes vs Ali in their primes discussion, I was thinking about their assets and weaknesses. I am not qualified to state all the characteristics of a great fighter or determine where Ali and Holmes would stand in these characteristics. So, hopefully, others can add to my thoughts. One thing that always struck me about Ali was that generally speaking, he was tall for his era and this gave him an advantage against some of his opposition. I believe Holmes was about the same height, so, prime vs prime, they would match up evenly here. I think Holmes could moved very well but, Ali was more fluid and dynamic in his style. So, I think Ali had an advantage here. They both had excellent chins but, I don't think I have seen anyone who could take punishment as well as Ali (and recover almost instantaneously). So, I think Ali had a small advantage here. Heart of a champion - both excelled. I don't see an advantage for either fighter here (but, Ali counted on winning the mind game for an advantage and this didn't work with Frazier and I don't think it would have worked with Holmes). Hand and foot speed, I think Ali had an advantage. Punching power, I think Holmes had an advantage. Jabs, Holmes jab was much more punishing so I think he had a small advantage.

Ali often counted on getting into the head of his opponent, as observed above. While this often gave him an advantage, with Frazier it just made Joe more determined and I think this would have been the case as well. By the time of the fight, I think Holmes would have been pissed at whatever insulting things Ali would have said and so I think Ali's big mouth (not being critical) would have worked against him with Holmes and Larry would have been extremely motivated and determined.

All in all, I think Ali was slightly superior in physical assets and skill (speed and ring generalship) but, I think Larry had a chip on his shoulder that gave him great motivation.

So, while I think Ali was a slightly better fighter, I would pick Holmes to win in a great, demanding, physically exhausting fight that neither fighter would ever fully recover from.

I must agree.

Kym

Sounds like people are reaching for reasons why Holmes would win this fight. I don't think anger is the thing that is going to break the stalemate, if anything Holmes getting angry could just as well be to Ali's advantage.

Plus, I think Holmes disliked all of his opponents, so I'm not sure that this would be anything too unusual for him

The circumstances were totally different so it has no relevance, but Ali, along with Frazier, were the only opponents who Holmes seemed to have any sympathy for.

I also don't agree with the idea that neither would recover from this fight. I don't think either one would take bad punishment, and while there would be exchanges I believe that it would be, for the most part, a boxing match and not a war.

None of my business but I think this would have been better placed in the other Ali-Holmes thread.

[quote="I Feel Fine"]Sounds like people are reaching for reasons why Holmes would win this fight. I don't think anger is the thing that is going to break the stalemate, if anything Holmes getting angry could just as well be to Ali's advantage.

Plus, I think Holmes disliked all of his opponents, so I'm not sure that this would be anything too unusual for him

The circumstances were totally different so it has no relevance, but Ali, along with Frazier, were the only opponents who Holmes seemed to have any sympathy for.

I also don't agree with the idea that neither would recover from this fight. I don't think either one would take bad punishment, and while there would be exchanges I believe that it would be, for the most part, a boxing match and not a war.

None of my business but I think this would have been better placed in the other Ali-Holmes thread.[/quote]

I didn't include this in the other Ali-Holmes thread for 2 reasons. One reason was that the other thread was primarily about who would win and although there was some discussion of attributes there was not a detailed breakdown. The second reason comes from the first. I am a boxing fan and that is it. I have never fought or been involved on boxing. Others on this forum have. So, I was hoping that someone who really knew boxing would give a sort of tale of the tape on the boxing attributes of Ali and Holmes. I kind of offered my opinion pointing out attributes that I could think of. But, again, I am just a boxing fan.

When Ali and Holmes did fight, Ali was not really Ali and Holmes was very kind to him. If they had been around the same age (all this is theoretical of course), Holmes would have been in the fight of his life. And, I think Ali would have also. Therefore, I disagree that it would have been a boxing match and not a war. I think it would have been both and since it would have been so evenly matched, they would have had to give everything they had. So, it is my opinion that they would have done great damage to each other.

Hope someone involved in the fighting game gives a "tale of the tape" regarding boxing attributes and the relative abilities of Ali and Holmes.

I just think it would have made more sense to put it there. But, anyway, I think you have it right in your first post in terms of what their attributes were. I would only disagree about punching power; Holmes did not hit harder than Ali. Holmes' right hand was harder than Ali's, but Ali had a harder left hook. And I disagree with your take on the result and I don't think that the fight would be a war, I think there would be some heated exchanges at times, but for the most part I believe it would be a boxing match. I don't think either of them would have been badly damaged in the fight.

I pointed to Holmes in the 1980 Ali fight not to point out what Holmes' mindset would be against prime Ali, I only pointed it out because it was one of the few times where Holmes had sympathy for an opponent. I was pointing out that this was a rare sight, and that for the most part Holmes seemed to often dislike his opponents, and often seemed to be quite angry at them, which is why I point out that Holmes being angry at Ali would not be anything too unusual, so I don't know this that anger would bring out anything in Larry that we haven't seen before. And, as I said, if Larry gets too angry it could just as well be to Ali's benefit.

Ali had a much better hook agreed he could double it up nicely and threw it with some nasty power at times.

Holmes had a nice right and uppercut.


I think Holmes displayed alot of compassion in the ring DURING a fight, which is very rare to see. Most guys are concerned after the fact, whereas Holmes always seemed to be concerned for his foe during.

I have heard many argue that this si because Holmes was always looking for the ref to intervene so he could secure a TKO...perhaps...

Ali always seemed to have a nastier streak in him. A malicious killer instinct which is different to other 'finishers'.

I disagree. I think Holmes often went into fights seeming to really dislike the opponent, while there were only a handfull of fights where Ali seemed to dislike the opponent. Ali punished two opponents in the ring, Patterson and Terrell, but he also went easy on a few of his opponents, the biggest example being Buster Mathis. Ali and Marvis Frazier were the only opponents I can recall Larry going easy on, I think Holmes generally had no qualms about punishing an opponent.

Its interesting, I once heard Holmes himself comment on this same thing. Holmes said in an interview that in his opinion, while Ali could finish an opponent, that he thought that Ali never really wanted to hurt any of his opponents. I think that is generally true, with only a few exceptions.

Though when Ali hated some one he seemed to hate some one :P

I shall re-watch a few fights of the 'great' ones as they say soon.

Thanks again.

It would have been a dull, boring, fight between two guys who had all the skill, heart and determination a person could want in a fighter...but ALi would be on his bicycle throwing out jabs, while Holmes would be the aggressor and be blocking mostly, countering from time to time...it would go the distance...and be either a lame ass draw or a majority decision for Holmes [hey someone had to be the agressor, and we know Ali wasnt that kind of fighter].

Dont forget Ali getting the crowd excited with his facial expressions, and waving his gloves up and down in between rounds.

"Alii... Aliii" They'd shout...for what ever reason, but to get a reaction.

As opposed to Holmes and his screaming jungle calls in the Mercer fight

I Feel Fine wrote:As opposed to Holmes and his screaming jungle calls in the Mercer fight

*GI cups his hands & gives a Tarzan impression in Holmes' voice his best shot*

Aaaaooooaaaaaoooooooaaaaaahhhhhhhh!!!

Yeah but that was just awesome :)