BoxRec

Instead of facing Holmes, that he had the opprotunity to have faced those he originally planned on facing [Tate and Weaver] and let's say for the hell of it, he also gives Coetzee a crack at him as well.


What are your predictions on these three hypotheticals?

Myself, I see Ali getting bombed out earlier and more brutally than the Holmes encounter in all three of these bouts; let's face it, Coetzee, Weaver and Tate were all big punching guys. I see Tate beating Ali on a TKO in 10, I see Weaver doing it inside of 8 rounds, and I see Coetzee doing the same.

What do you all think?

I think your a cruel man.

Holmes and Ali's history made it obvious that Holmes would ease off at times and control Ali tthough not destroy him.

I think a guy like Tate or Weaver who have less skill as a boxer than Holmes may look to stamp out Ali early.

As we saw in the Holmes fight and even before that, Ali does not have the body to react to something as risky as one of those guys searching him down.

I doubt Gerrie would get a fight being a Afrikaan and Ali being the champion of blacks and the third world.

The one could argue that had Ali faced a lesser opponent at this time, then he may have looked some what ok.

By this time he was a shell of his former greatness. The fact that he made it to the end of the Berbick fight was surprising.

It is sad that he and others feel the need to come back at all.

That Ali was a sad sight compared to the man he was.

Now let's hear your tears for the condition Archie Moore was in when he fought Ali.

Floyd Patterson?

Cleveland Williams?

Spinks drugged in the second fight?

Tell us all about it, Ali shills.

WE KNOW how consistent you Ali shills are in your concern for a fighter's condition.

LOL

Well Archie Moore is my all time favorite fighter. And he was pretty durable up to and inlcuding his last fight in Phoenix against Dibiase.....I think that guy thought just what your thinking...that Archie didn't have much left. He really beat up that fella...pretty brutally...seemed a bit personal if you were up close. And he stayed in good shape both mind, body and spirit.

I think your a cruel man.

Holmes and Ali's history made it obvious that Holmes would ease off at times and control Ali tthough not destroy him.

I think a guy like Tate or Weaver who have less skill as a boxer than Holmes may look to stamp out Ali early.

As we saw in the Holmes fight and even before that, Ali does not have the body to react to something as risky as one of those guys searching him down.

I doubt Gerrie would get a fight being a Afrikaan and Ali being the champion of blacks and the third world.

The one could argue that had Ali faced a lesser opponent at this time, then he may have looked some what ok.

I ain't cruel, just stating facts. Ali was originally to come back against Tate, but then Tate was beaten by Weaver, and Weaver in turn was beaten by Holmes; Coetzee was the #1 contender for the WBA title when Ali retired in 1979, and was at ringside challenging Ali after he defeated Spinks in the rematch; of course Coetzee lost to Tate for the vacant title, but Coetzee was still no push over, he knocked out Spinks in a single round.

I was just curious as to how you all feel how these fights would have went down, had they taken place. Remember, in many interviews, Ali had said he wanted to fight Tate, then Weaver and then fight Holmes, and as ludacris as it sounds, retire again, come back and be five time heavyweight champion because it was better than four.

I never said Holmes was cruel to Ali, it was apparent he was able to hit Ali at will, and from rounds one to eight, I believe, Holmes landed some 500+ punches and in rounds nine and ten, had landed over 125. It was during that fight, you could tell that Holmes lacked a killer attitude that he would later have against Cooney and Cobb, and he had even asked the referee to stop the fight [we all remember the line of 'What do you want me to do, kill him?'].

Wasn't until the waning moments of round 10, did Holmes put on the flash and it was clear that had it went one more round, Ali would have genuinely been knocked out, as Holmes had Ali doubled over from body shots and falling back and leaning against the ropes, his legs gone.

Call me cruel, but this was proposed bouts that fortunately for Ali, didn't happen, because I dont believe power-punchers like Weaver and Tate and Coetzee would have been as merciful to him as Holmes was.

It is funny you should mention Archie, Granberry, I was watching his fight in 58 with Durelle and was thinking to myself that for an 'old bloke' he was moving pretty well.

I was trying to compare his success at that age to guys who were 'shot' or over the hill at the same age.

I guess this goes back to what Terry D and co were discussing in the JHolmes vs Ali thread, that Ali relied on a young mans style.

Whereas a man like Moore matured better and got wiser as the years passed on. He relied on his tactics, skills and then physical abilities. As opposed to being nearly a pure phyicaly, athlete talent.

There is no disputing though that Moore looked damned old in 1962 Vs Ali.

Who knows. I would have loved to have seen Rocky stick around to the age of 38 so he could have met Sonny Liston. Talk about getting bombed out, eh henry?

I think had Marciano stuck around by the time Liston hit his peak, I'd have to agree with you that Rocky would have lost, but I do believe like a warrior, he wouldn't have given up easily as Marciano was a do or die kind of fighter. I do think, however, even with inactivity, had he come back against Johansson, he would have weathered Ingo's stormy barrage and would have been successful in his endeavors.

well Ali was passed in the 80's.

Maybe he could have beaten a lot of the fighters then.. But with his condition and Age, it is a wonder Ali did not get KO'd in the first. It showed he is an immensely talented fighter, probably the best, but again shows, age catches up with everyone

he could have beaten a lot of the fighters then

and who would that have been? Ali's daughter Laila could probably have whooped his ass on the day he fought Holmes ffs...who out there in 1980-1981 (before he retired for good, though come back rumors would resurface in 1984) would have lost to Muhammad Ali?

Teofilio Stevenson would have beaten him, and he wasnt even a professional.

HomicideHenry wrote:

he could have beaten a lot of the fighters then

and who would that have been? Ali's daughter Laila could probably have whooped his ass on the day he fought Holmes ffs...who out there in 1980-1981 (before he retired for good, though come back rumors would resurface in 1984) would have lost to Muhammad Ali?

Teofilio Stevenson would have beaten him, and he wasnt even a professional.

He couldn't have beaten any top 50 heavyweight by that stage.

He was old and used up and taking large amounts of medication.

His mind made appointments his body couldn't keep, to paraphrase someone else.

So what? He wasn't the first and he won't be the last to go on too long.

If you take pleasure in speculating about an old used up fighter being KO'd by other fellows in their prime, then I have to wonder just what sort of 'fan' you are.

As opposed to the constant baggering of Ali could have defeated any heavyweight that ever lived, no matter what rules and equipment and stage of his career he was in? Please.

I think its threads like mine that remind some that he was in fact human, was nothing extraordinary about him he was just a flesh and blood man whose charisma transcended boxing and is, yes, a top five heavyweight champion, let alone fighter, of all time...but he wasnt perfect, and given those circumstances, he could have been beaten by certain men.

I've met fans who swear up and down that Ali, had he fought Tate or Weaver, would have WON...not on this forum, but I have seen it been said...I've also seen people so dilusional that they think Ali was so great that even when he was just starting out that he was so good that he could have defeated Patterson, Johansson and Liston, and this was before he ever was even knocked down by Sonny Banks...again not on this forum, but I have seen it said.

Here Ali [left] is in the process of landing a tremendous right hand to the body against Sonny Banks.

HomicideHenry wrote:As opposed to the constant baggering of Ali could have defeated any heavyweight that ever lived, no matter what rules and equipment and stage of his career he was in? Please.

No one here has said that, so this "reminder" is not needed. If I started a thread for every stupid thing I heard about Marciano outside of this forum I would have a lot more of them than you have on Ali.

This is just another thread started by someone with a chip on their shoulder about Ali, looking to start a fight. What makes it this one much worse is that you're basically relishing in the damage Ali took in the ring; I guess that's easy to do when its not your ass in the ring taking the damage.

Maybe if Ali hadn't adopted that evil Mohammedan name we might find him less objectionable, eh henry?

HomicideHenry wrote:As opposed to the constant baggering of Ali could have defeated any heavyweight that ever lived, no matter what rules and equipment and stage of his career he was in? Please.

I think its threads like mine that remind some that he was in fact human, was nothing extraordinary about him he was just a flesh and blood man whose charisma transcended boxing and is, yes, a top five heavyweight champion, let alone fighter, of all time...but he wasnt perfect, and given those circumstances, he could have been beaten by certain men.

I've met fans who swear up and down that Ali, had he fought Tate or Weaver, would have WON...not on this forum, but I have seen it been said...I've also seen people so dilusional that they think Ali was so great that even when he was just starting out that he was so good that he could have defeated Patterson, Johansson and Liston, and this was before he ever was even knocked down by Sonny Banks...again not on this forum, but I have seen it said.

What the fekk does baggering mean?

And why tar posters on this forum with tags of being Ali worshippers and then back down and say it ISN'T people on this forum?

Last week you accused us all of being Frazier-haters then had to backpeddle on that too.

Have a think before you start firing off your half-assed accusations.

Here we see Joe Louis, Heavyweight champion at his peak and in his prime, trying to find his contact lens.

I think all of those men would have taken longer than some may expect to do away with Ali. Hesitance in the face of someone like Ali, crowd size & bias, the legend behind the man all merge to contribute to fighters who should win early or big doing less than is expected of them. We've seen it many times, & for this reason, I'll exercise caution & say Ali survives the distance (if it's 10, or perhaps even 12) with at least one, & I nominate Tate as the man. Late stoppages in Weaver & Coetzee's case, somewhere rounds seven-through-ten.

In every instance, Ali is not decked for a ten-count. He does, however, lose these fights. All were competent (if green) fighters & more importantly, all were hungry at this stage, they wanted their name up in lights, & they'd do this version of Ali in. I just think Ali can bluff his way through more rounds than he should, though I cannot honestly see him winning. He just didn't throw anymore, as we saw against Spinks, Holmes & Berbick. Can't win a fight shouting & clinching.

HomicideHenry wrote:Instead of facing Holmes, that he had the opprotunity to have faced those he originally planned on facing [Tate and Weaver] and let's say for the hell of it, he also gives Coetzee a crack at him as well.


What are your predictions on these three hypotheticals?

Myself, I see Ali getting bombed out earlier and more brutally than the Holmes encounter in all three of these bouts; let's face it, Coetzee, Weaver and Tate were all big punching guys. I see Tate beating Ali on a TKO in 10, I see Weaver doing it inside of 8 rounds, and I see Coetzee doing the same.

What do you all think?

Got to agree.

Ali gets pummelled by all 3.

He was in the early stages of Parkinson's.

I still can't understand how he even passed a medical to fight in 1980!

id say he got a licence because of the finacial gain for all people involved with it.... ali was way to far past it by that stage

granberry wrote:

Here Ali [left] is in the process of landing a tremendous right hand to the body against Sonny Banks.

Hey wait...this was like one of Ali's first 10 pro fights right? He was dropped when he was cold right in the first round....but then in the second round he dropped Sonny....(he dropped a couple of Sonny's come to think of it) But then he KO'd this Sonny in the 4th.

So once again we have that "novelty" photo...that rare moment, that "collectable". Why? because of the exquisitely rare and unusual quality of the moment caught on film.

It is easy to see that you sir have an eye for the rare and unusual.

BoxBuzz wrote:

granberry wrote:

Here Ali [left] is in the process of landing a tremendous right hand to the body against Sonny Banks.

Hey wait...this was like one of Ali's first 10 pro fights right? He was dropped when he was cold right in the first round....but then in the second round he dropped Sonny....(he dropped a couple of Sonny's come to think of it) But then he KO'd this Sonny in the 4th.

So once again we have that "novelty" photo...that rare moment, that "collectable". Why? because of the exquisitely rare and unusual quality of the moment caught on film.

It is easy to see that you sir have an eye for the rare and unusual.

I like your pathetic Ali shill excuse that Clay was knocked down because he wasn't warmed up.

Isn't that sweet.

Maybe someone should have told him that the fight starts when the bell rings.

HOW OLD was Sonny Banks here?

How "cold" was Sonny Banks in the first round?

Your boy was knocked down by a single Sonny Banks LEFT HOOK.

Because he couldn't defend himself against a LEFT HOOK.

Just like 185 pound Henry Cooper knocked him down with a LEFT HOOK.

Just like Joe Frazier clobbered him repeatedly with a LEFT HOOK.

Clay didn't knock out anybody in the Sonny Banks fight.

The referee Ruby Goldstein's stoppage of the fight in Clay's favor was highly disputed.

Here is a question for boxing "expert" buzz:

WHAT was Clay doing when he got knocked down by Sonny Banks' left hook?
.

granberry wrote:Clay didn't knock out anybody in the Sonny Banks fight.

The referee Ruby Goldstein's stoppage of the fight in Clay's favor was highly disputed.

Oh dear God.

This is either another example of dingleberry making it up as he goes along or another example of dingleberry making an exaggerated claim; maybe a couple of guys complained and dingleberry takes that and presents it as "highly disputed."

If it is true, which I doubt since I've never heard any complaints about this stoppage, it would be nice if dingleberry could cite a source for it (as he failed to do in the other thread in regards to Louis and his comments on Clay-Liston I). This was not at all a bad stoppage.