BoxRec

what boxers of the past cross trained in wrestling...

I know Frank Gotch an old school catch wrestler and early pro attempted boxing to little success.

I also remember reading about Jeffereies training with wrestlers to help him in the clinch and with his strength.

I think I also remember something about Bruno doing some wrestling during the mid to late 80s.

Thanks again guys

kym

Gene Lebell
Danny Hodge
Paul Berlenbach
Ima big fan of cross training this way.
I'd like to see more boxers do a little wrestling /grappling here and there.
Good for the balance , clinches, and would break up the monotony some.
Great conditioning also.

I know Dempsey trained with some of the top catch wrestlers of his day, and was reported as being pretty good.

ALL fighters of pre 1900 and for the first decade and more after 1900 included types of wrestling as a basic part of their training. Especially for balance and development of the neck. There are training films of fighters (Sam Langford, Jeffries, and others) doing wrestling type exercises with sparring partners.

Jimmy Young's trainer consulted a number of wrestling people before Young's fight with Ali, to discuss how to handle Ali's many wrestling type non-boxing tactics. The reason Ali looked so bad against Young was that Young negated each and every one of Ali's non boxing fouls, leaving Ali with nothing left except boxing itself. The result was visible.

A fighters like Jerry Quarry and Bonavena, who were less schooled than Young, let Ali get away with his wrestling tactics to an appalling level.

I have noticed that a lot of early 20th centrury and late 19th century guys did alot of wrestling.

It'd make sense to do even some of the drills to help with one's boxing.

One thing I have noticed is that alot of more modern fighters lack decent clinching skills, they literally hold and wait for the ref where as in times past when the clinch happened each fighter worked, pummeled, repositioned, adjusted and so on. This is almost a forgotten skill/

Maybe with the popularity of MMA etc more boxers will look to cross over a bit more.

"Money" Mayweather.

I said wrestling not bullshit

Robinson wrote:I said wrestling not bullshit

All those fellows on the WWE shows have a real wrestling background don't they?

Sure, what they are doing is a mockery of the art but...

They had to do something to make it generate money. Cripes have you ever seen the wrasslin at the olympics? Strictly for the connoisseur. Not many people are gonna pay to see that. Feck, you'd have to pay me to watch it.

very few of them./.

in recent times Kurt Angle and Brock Lesner came from solid NCAA and Olympic back grounds.

Alot of the guys have no or limited back groung in wrestling.

Pro wrestling is its own art.

With 'amateur' wrestling there are three distinct styles Folkstyle (US Collegiate), Freestyle and Greco Roman (both olympic) and the average person has no idea what they are watching.

Having said that for me watching amateur boxing can be just as boring or hard to follow.

In Russia, Poland, Armenia and a number of other Eastern European countries and some middle eastern countries, their champion wrestlers are national heroes.

That is also true of their greatest weightlifters.

At the age of 80, the great US weightlifter Norb Schemansky lives unnoticed in Detroit.
If he visits Russia he is a nationally known figure.

Great wrestlers like Ivan Yarigan, Alexander Medved, Levan Tediashvili, and Alexander Karelin
are considered on the level of a Babe Ruth or Jack Dempsey to the populations of their own countries.

The limited mentality that sneers at their sport out of ignorance reveals its own vacantness and superficiality.

Robinson wrote:
very few of them./.

in recent times Kurt Angle and Brock Lesner came from solid NCAA and Olympic back grounds.

Alot of the guys have no or limited back groung in wrestling.

Pro wrestling is its own art.

With 'amateur' wrestling there are three distinct styles Folkstyle (US Collegiate), Freestyle and Greco Roman (both olympic) and the average person has no idea what they are watching.

Having said that for me watching amateur boxing can be just as boring or hard to follow.

You are right. I thought more had been amateur greco-roman grapplers but looking on wikipedia I see I was mistaken. I learn something new every day.

I still believe amateur wrestling has to be one of the least popular spectator sports ever. Even when the olympics are on they never show more than 2 minutes of it and you can see why. Too technical for people not involved to understand plus it aint really aesthetically pleasing is it?

Of course, granberry, will have a contrary view and will tell us in Lithuania they sell out a 20,000 seater SportsHalle on a weekly basis for greco roman wrestling tournements...

Its true what Granberry s aying though, alot of Eastern Euro countries take there wrestling damned serious. They are als starting to take MMA and well as we have seen of late...boxing very serious also.

Even though most are 'democracies' the state still sponsors and trains alot of its amateurs. This has to be a huge factor in there success in modern combat sports.

What makses the USA for my money competitive in world level wrestling is because folkstyle is huge in the colleges and most high schools.

To my knowlegde boxing is not as big in the US in its colleges and high schools ? This has to affect the power shift atleast as far as modern HW are concerned.

I agree amateur wrestling is not as easy on the eye as other combat sports...what also does not help is that FILA has changed the rules often in freestyle comps so as to try and appease public viewing. This is dumb as it has only served to confuse officials, athletes, coaches and some countries still wrestle under the old rules.

I remember reading that in Hungary during the cold war that the wrestlers and boxers would spend a few sessions before competitions cross training with one another.

Robinson wrote: I remember reading that in Hungary during the cold war that the wrestlers and boxers would spend a few sessions before competitions cross training with one another.

I can see that being useful for the boxers but I'm not sure how getting jabbed and hooked would help the grapplers...

Loosens them up. Most wrestlers are very stiff and almost awkward when they aren't in contact with a foe.

Boxing I have found helps with shoulder movement and flow. I did some boxing defence drills, with the state wrestling team and it actually helped them.

Rolling with punches for example, and high shoulder position on the inside are helpful in 'shucking' a guys clinch. A guy with 'slippery' shoulders in boxing or wrestling is a damned hard man to get your hands on....then apply that with good hip movement and boy, you got yourself one hard opponent.

Slipping punches, ala Tyson, Patterson style is useful against a rangey wrestler who is using distant head control, helps slip the arm and open up the legs.

Method style boxers like Ambrose Palmer and Famechon stance and movement are also helpful in clinching etc...

In Greco Roman alot of the inside work that you see Mayweather Jr and Toney employing are good especially against a guy who tries using a single collar tie. (One arm behind your head) This lets you stay mobile and able to re-pummel (getting arms under neath).

Boxing is more versatile than most give it credit it for. Its just one of the hardest sports to get good at...though in principal its the easiest to understand :P

Has anyone here seen the Milo Savage Vs Gene Lebell fight ? a short clip of it is on YouTube.

Also forgot to mention 'rhythm' ie 1, 2 jab, cross...

After say clinching contact...'jab' left shoulder shuck...'cross' right under hook etc...

basic things to boxers...but to wrestlers...very helpful and alien ideas.

Ive seen the Savage -Lebell fight.
Gene was a very tough guy.I have alot of respect for his abilities and he was an early proponent of cross training different styles.
Milo should have NEVER agreed to put a gi top on when stepping in with" Judo Gene".
Lebell was a two time National Judo champ and if he gets a grip , I dont care who the guy is hes got a serious problem.
Milo was choked unconscious after getting thrown hard.

Robinson wrote:Loosens them up. Most wrestlers are very stiff and almost awkward when they aren't in contact with a foe.

Boxing I have found helps with shoulder movement and flow. I did some boxing defence drills, with the state wrestling team and it actually helped them.

Rolling with punches for example, and high shoulder position on the inside are helpful in 'shucking' a guys clinch. A guy with 'slippery' shoulders in boxing or wrestling is a damned hard man to get your hands on....then apply that with good hip movement and boy, you got yourself one hard opponent.

Slipping punches, ala Tyson, Patterson style is useful against a rangey wrestler who is using distant head control, helps slip the arm and open up the legs.

Method style boxers like Ambrose Palmer and Famechon stance and movement are also helpful in clinching etc...

In Greco Roman alot of the inside work that you see Mayweather Jr and Toney employing are good especially against a guy who tries using a single collar tie. (One arm behind your head) This lets you stay mobile and able to re-pummel (getting arms under neath).

Boxing is more versatile than most give it credit it for. Its just one of the hardest sports to get good at...though in principal its the easiest to understand :P

Has anyone here seen the Milo Savage Vs Gene Lebell fight ? a short clip of it is on YouTube.

Interesting stuff, Kym. Cheers.

This is what this forum used to be about. Discussion and learning.

ExPug

I have it on VHS the full fight and never understood what took LeBell so long...also why the heck Savage wore a gi....as he is after all suppose to represent boxing.

That was pre pink gi Lebell to...all business :P

Hey Pug you ever used your boxing in judo comp's ?

Collins

any time...still is, im trying to soak up all I read on here.

If bxing is the sweet science...wrestling is the salty one :P....MMA is well...
I guess the spicey one

Collins2000 wrote:
I still believe amateur wrestling has to be one of the least popular spectator sports ever. Even when the olympics are on they never show more than 2 minutes of it and you can see why. Too technical for people not involved to understand plus it aint really aesthetically pleasing is it?

Of course, granberry, will have a contrary view and will tell us in Lithuania they sell out a 20,000 seater SportsHalle on a weekly basis for greco roman wrestling tournements...

To attempt to use the example what the politically correct, clueless and disgustingly pandering US TV media show is a further demonstration of the type of mentality which gets its "knowledge" from what Howard Cosell, Roone Arledge, Chris Shenckel, and Larry Merchant spoon feed the US masses.

The fact the clueless US TV networks show more water dancing and volleyball than they do wrestling and weightlifting only attests to their own ignorance of the original and most manly Olympic sports.

Ignorance of and dislike of a topic does not qualify someone to comment on it,

other than to display their own ignorance, spitefulness, and superficiality.

In the eastern European countries, wrestlers are among the greatest national heroes, along with their great weightlifters..

Great wrestlers like Ivan Yarigan, Alexander Medved, Levan Tediashvili, and Alexander Karelin
are considered as significant as a Babe Ruth or Jack Dempsey would be to the populations of their own countries.

A US poster totally ignorant of the entire existence of these sports and sneering at them out of ignorance is a perfect demonstration of the typical US media fed poser.

granberry wrote:Ignorance of and dislike of a topic does not qualify someone to comment on it, other than to display their own ignorance, spitefulness, and superficiality.

A perfect summing up of the worthlessness of 95% of your posts.

As far as rasslin' is concerned I can name quite a few who jumped from boxing into the rasslin' ring, but there are very few that I know of who jumped ship from rasslin' to boxing...as far as real wrestling, or submission style like fights is concerned, that's even less.

Robinson wrote:ExPug

I have it on VHS the full fight and never understood what took LeBell so long...also why the heck Savage wore a gi....as he is after all suppose to represent boxing.

That was pre pink gi Lebell to...all business :P

Hey Pug you ever used your boxing in judo comp's ?

Collins

any time...still is, im trying to soak up all I read on here.

If bxing is the sweet science...wrestling is the salty one :P....MMA is well...
I guess the spicey one

Once in awhile, the lapel grip on the Taiotshi (my favorite throw) rides up into the chin a little.
Usualy its retaliatory though.
The refs get a little salty if I bounce a right hand off the guy.
Hows mma going Kym?
Have you done any wrestling comps recently?

Collins2000 wrote:

granberry wrote:Ignorance of and dislike of a topic does not qualify someone to comment on it, other than to display their own ignorance, spitefulness, and superficiality.

A perfect summing up of the worthlessness of 95% of your posts.

The glibness and superficiality displayed in your posts here concerning wrestling speak for themselves.

You NAILED yourself in revealing your relience on what the media tells you to think and your smirking contempt for what you have no knowledge of.

granberry wrote:

Collins2000 wrote:

granberry wrote:Ignorance of and dislike of a topic does not qualify someone to comment on it, other than to display their own ignorance, spitefulness, and superficiality.

A perfect summing up of the worthlessness of 95% of your posts.

The glibness and superficiality displayed in your posts here concerning wrestling speak for themselves.

You NAILED yourself in revealing your relience on what the media tells you to think and your smirking contempt for what you have no knowledge of.

I was discussing it with Kym.

I made no claim to be an expert.

When he corrected me on something I accepted it and thanked him.

You would do well to read those posts and learn how adults interact successfully for a mutually beneficial experience.

If you could grasp that you wouldn't get treated like a boring ignorant old bitch every time you try to elbow your way in on "the greatest thread ever".

Collins2000 wrote:

granberry wrote:

Collins2000 wrote:
A perfect summing up of the worthlessness of 95% of your posts.

The glibness and superficiality displayed in your posts here concerning wrestling speak for themselves.

You NAILED yourself in revealing your relience on what the media tells you to think and your smirking contempt for what you have no knowledge of.

I was discussing it with Kym.

I made no claim to be an expert.

When he corrected me on something I accepted it and thanked him.

You would do well to read those posts and learn how adults interact successfully for a mutually beneficial experience.

If you could grasp that you wouldn't get treated like a boring ignorant old bitch every time you try to elbow your way in on "the greatest thread ever".

I exposed the ignorance of the subject you eagerly paraded.

I called attention to the fact that you proudly stated that you get your information from the US big media.

I posted information on the topic for those here who want information that is correct on the topic of wrestling.

You continued to offer further ignorance of the subject and pride that you know nothing about it.

You circulate around boxrec posting attacks on other posters, working in tandem with your irene, p4, etc, and now kikibalt and raylac.

You have never made a post on the subject of boxing

and you never will.

And you can't stand it when your attempt to spit at another sport, wrestling, is exposed for what it is.