BoxRec

How did the junior heavyweight- cruiserweight divison get ist birth ?

I know the reasons for it, but I am interested in knowing the history of its birth.

Thanks guys

One of the 2 parasite organisation around at the time created a division between light heavy and heavy.

Naturally the other one saw there was money to be made and followed suit.

The strange thing was the two mobs originally had a different upper weight limit.

The history you can then trace starting with a look at Marvin Camel's record.

In 1979, the lightheavyweight division was loaded with good fighters and lots of good fights. So naturally in an effort to break up a good thing a new weight class was born that eventually took some of the lightheavyweights away to the cruiserweight division and split up the talent pool.

The esteemed WBC recognized the first cruiserweight title fight in 1979. Mate Parlov and Marvin Camel fought to a draw. Thus the glorious history of the cruiserweight division began. Camel won the rematch in 1980 and with it the presitgous WBC Cruiserweight belt.

Originally the WBC weight limit was 190, then it was 195 for a few years. Then around 1986, it came back to 190.
The renowned WBA didn't start until 1982 and had it at 190. Of course all the WBS organizations now recognize the limit as 200.

Ambling Alp wrote:In 1979, the lightheavyweight division was loaded with good fighters and lots of good fights. So naturally in an effort to break up a good thing a new weight class was born that eventually took some of the lightheavyweights away to the cruiserweight division and split up the talent pool.

The esteemed WBC recognized the first cruiserweight title fight in 1979. Mate Parlov and Marvin Camel fought to a draw. Thus the glorious history of the cruiserweight division began. Camel won the rematch in 1980 and with it the presitgous WBC Cruiserweight belt.

Originally the WBC weight limit was 190, then it was 195 for a few years. Then around 1986, it came back to 190.
The renowned WBA didn't start until 1982 and had it at 190. Of course all the WBS organizations now recognize the limit as 200.

It's a bogus weight class for large light Havyweights who don't want to cut the weight. I laugh when people suggest a super HW division, I say abolish the cruierweights!!!

The guys who trimmed down and in top condition would be 190-200 lbs are fighting over 200 at HW (Brock, Povetkin, Ibragimov, Chagaev etc.) And no, that extra chub is not making them better fighters. Why don't they weigh 200 then? Well, if you're not being forced to work harder/be more disciplined, you're not going to. Look at James Toney.

"It's a bogus weight class for large light Havyweights who don't want to cut the weight. I laugh when people suggest a super HW division, I say abolish the cruierweights!!!

The guys who trimmed down and in top condition would be 190-200 lbs are fighting over 200 at HW (Brock, Povetkin, Ibragimov, Chagaev etc.) And no, that extra chub is not making them better fighters. Why don't they weigh 200 then? Well, if you're not being forced to work harder/be more disciplined, you're not going to. Look at James Toney." - DempseyFire

Ambling Alp wrote:In 1979, the lightheavyweight division was loaded with good fighters and lots of good fights. So naturally in an effort to break up a good thing a new weight class was born that eventually took some of the lightheavyweights away to the cruiserweight division and split up the talent pool.

The esteemed WBC recognized the first cruiserweight title fight in 1979. Mate Parlov and Marvin Camel fought to a draw. Thus the glorious history of the cruiserweight division began. Camel won the rematch in 1980 and with it the presitgous WBC Cruiserweight belt.

Originally the WBC weight limit was 190, then it was 195 for a few years. Then around 1986, it came back to 190.
The renowned WBA didn't start until 1982 and had it at 190. Of course all the WBS organizations now recognize the limit as 200.

I thought it was cut from the bottom of the heavies, not the top of light-heavy?

MatthewS wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:In 1979, the lightheavyweight division was loaded with good fighters and lots of good fights. So naturally in an effort to break up a good thing a new weight class was born that eventually took some of the lightheavyweights away to the cruiserweight division and split up the talent pool.

The esteemed WBC recognized the first cruiserweight title fight in 1979. Mate Parlov and Marvin Camel fought to a draw. Thus the glorious history of the cruiserweight division began. Camel won the rematch in 1980 and with it the presitgous WBC Cruiserweight belt.

Originally the WBC weight limit was 190, then it was 195 for a few years. Then around 1986, it came back to 190.
The renowned WBA didn't start until 1982 and had it at 190. Of course all the WBS organizations now recognize the limit as 200.

I thought it was cut from the bottom of the heavies, not the top of light-heavy?

No, that's what the orgs wanted people to believe, that the HWs had "evolved" to be so big that a weight class was needed for small HWs (and this was an era when you had tubs of goo like Page and Tubbs leaning on each other for 15 rounds). But if you look at almost all of the top cruiserweights in history, they went up to cruiser after being at 175 (O'Neil Bell, Mormeck, Camel, Hill, Thompson, Adamek, G. Jones, U. Grant, Csyz) And these guys wern't light HWs at 19 and then jumped up a few years later. They were weighing that in their mid-late 20s (and sometimes beyond that)
Spinks is one of the few I can think who actually came from the HW class, and he came down b/c he probably thought the cruiserweights might be profitable and the comp was weak. Well, his weak chin got exposed there yet again.

90% of the time, if you can make 175 at 25, you can make it at 30. You might just have the work a little harder. The cruiserweights are in the dead zone of not cutting to 175 but not being natural HWs so not being able to compete at Heavyweight. Holyfield and Haye were a couple of the few true "small Heavyweights" at cruiser and as you can see, they moved up to Heavyweight to where the $ is.

I think the animosity towards the Cruiserweight division stems from the fact that most guys who are critical of it, deep down, see it as an affront to their heavyweight heroes of yesteryear, who weighed in below 200.

Seriously, if a weight division ranging from 175-200 doesn't produce world class fighters it's time to abandon the sport.

Best suggestion would be to rename the Cruiserweight division, the Heavyweight division, and call the current HW's the Super Heavyweight division. That way their would be no new weight class.

dempseyfire wrote:

MatthewS wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:In 1979, the lightheavyweight division was loaded with good fighters and lots of good fights. So naturally in an effort to break up a good thing a new weight class was born that eventually took some of the lightheavyweights away to the cruiserweight division and split up the talent pool.

The esteemed WBC recognized the first cruiserweight title fight in 1979. Mate Parlov and Marvin Camel fought to a draw. Thus the glorious history of the cruiserweight division began. Camel won the rematch in 1980 and with it the presitgous WBC Cruiserweight belt.

Originally the WBC weight limit was 190, then it was 195 for a few years. Then around 1986, it came back to 190.
The renowned WBA didn't start until 1982 and had it at 190. Of course all the WBS organizations now recognize the limit as 200.

I thought it was cut from the bottom of the heavies, not the top of light-heavy?

No, that's what the orgs wanted people to believe, that the HWs had "evolved" to be so big that a weight class was needed for small HWs (and this was an era when you had tubs of goo like Page and Tubbs leaning on each other for 15 rounds). But if you look at almost all of the top cruiserweights in history, they went up to cruiser after being at 175 (O'Neil Bell, Mormeck, Camel, Hill, Thompson, Adamek, G. Jones, U. Grant, Csyz) And these guys wern't light HWs at 19 and then jumped up a few years later. They were weighing that in their mid-late 20s (and sometimes beyond that)
Spinks is one of the few I can think who actually came from the HW class, and he came down b/c he probably thought the cruiserweights might be profitable and the comp was weak. Well, his weak chin got exposed there yet again.

90% of the time, if you can make 175 at 25, you can make it at 30. You might just have the work a little harder. The cruiserweights are in the dead zone of not cutting to 175 but not being natural HWs so not being able to compete at Heavyweight. Holyfield and Haye were a couple of the few true "small Heavyweights" at cruiser and as you can see, they moved up to Heavyweight to where the $ is.

OIC, so we had the scenario where the fighters who joined the new division were from LHW, but the fighters whose natural weight was that 180-190 area bulked up to heavy.

I was just trying to point out that the division came from the bottom end of the heavyweight division, I read Alps post as saying that it was split from inside the LHW division, my mistake

Its kind of interesting, I think, that the same criticisms I see posted here about the cruiserweights were being made about the light-heavyweight class at the turn of the century.

Merely an observation. I am not passing judgment either way.

It's ironic, because back when there was only 8 divisions and just one belt per weight class, the same notion was used against the light heavyweights; stating that they were 'too small' to have made good heavyweights, or they were simply over blown middleweights who no longer could make the weight.

Throw in the Cruiserweight division when it began to explode in the mid 80's with guys like Holyfield, Camel, Qwai and the like; it was the same thought process. Guys who were 'too small' to make good heavyweights and couldn't make weight for 175.

Every once in a while a fighter would come around, who would jump ship from out of those weight classes and prove the 'experts' wrong. Gene Tunney was a light heavyweight and he was able to win the heavyweight crown, as did Ezzard Charles, as did Michael Spinks and later on, so did Roy Jones, though it wasn't the undisputed championship.

Throw in guys like Tommy Gibbons who challenged Dempsey for the title in the infamous "Shelby, Montana" financial disaster, or Billy Conn going up against Joe Louis and for 12 rounds making The Brown Bomber look silly. Moving forward 50-75 years later, we see James Toney making heavyweights look ridiculous.

Evander Holyfield, though, for all intents and purposes is the only hugely successful Cruiserweight who turned Heavyweight; not only being recognized as the greatest Cruiser of all time, but later becoming a 4x heavyweight champion meeting and defeating the best of his era, the real main players that actually counted.

It really is an unfair assumption, because there is alot of smaller fighters who if matched carefully and come in at the right place at the right time, could beat a much bigger opponent than themselves.

Seamus wrote:I think the animosity towards the Cruiserweight division stems from the fact that most guys who are critical of it, deep down, see it as an affront to their heavyweight heroes of yesteryear, who weighed in below 200.

Is it an affront to you that Jack Dempsey beat Jess Willard, who was 6' 6 1/2" and weighed 243?

Is it an affront to you that Joe Louis beat Primo Carnera, Buddy Baer, Abe Simon, etc etc?

Look up their weights sometime and you will be very 'affronted.'

LOL

The bloated, out of shape, steroid filled 250 pound "boxers" of today are a joke.

A guy who I think is a bit overlooked at Cruiser during the beginning stages is Carlos De Leon. He won the WBC title 4 times.

HomicideHenry wrote:It's ironic, because back when there was only 8 divisions and just one belt per weight class, the same notion was used against the light heavyweights; stating that they were 'too small' to have made good heavyweights, or they were simply over blown middleweights who no longer could make the weight.

Throw in the Cruiserweight division when it began to explode in the mid 80's with guys like Holyfield, Camel, Qwai and the like; it was the same thought process. Guys who were 'too small' to make good heavyweights and couldn't make weight for 175.

Every once in a while a fighter would come around, who would jump ship from out of those weight classes and prove the 'experts' wrong. Gene Tunney was a light heavyweight and he was able to win the heavyweight crown, as did Ezzard Charles, as did Michael Spinks and later on, so did Roy Jones, though it wasn't the undisputed championship.

Throw in guys like Tommy Gibbons who challenged Dempsey for the title in the infamous "Shelby, Montana" financial disaster, or Billy Conn going up against Joe Louis and for 12 rounds making The Brown Bomber look silly. Moving forward 50-75 years later, we see James Toney making heavyweights look ridiculous.

Evander Holyfield, though, for all intents and purposes is the only hugely successful Cruiserweight who turned Heavyweight; not only being recognized as the greatest Cruiser of all time, but later becoming a 4x heavyweight champion meeting and defeating the best of his era, the real main players that actually counted.

It really is an unfair assumption, because there is alot of smaller fighters who if matched carefully and come in at the right place at the right time, could beat a much bigger opponent than themselves.

But Light HW was one of those "8" divisions . . .

The 175 lb class has been around in the sport almost as long as fighters have been wearing gloves.

Obviously the shorter the fight, the greater a bigger man generally has an advantage. The bare-knuckle era had very few elite fighters over 220 lbs as in a dragged out fight over 2+ hours, the real big men would simply wear out.

With gloves and shorter duration of fights, it made rational sense to forge a middle ground between the middleweights and heavyweights.

Cruiserweights were created 80 years later, solely for the purpose of greed and greater sanctioning fees. I don't remember any "fighter's union" demanding a new weight class . . . .

The elimination of 15 rounders has been one change that clearly has made it easier for the 'super' HWs (Lennox would've had several more losses if 15 rounders had been present IMO) but the change isn't great enough to justify a new weight class.

So the consensus is eliminate the division.

I have always viewed the CW divisions fights when watching them as matches between two smaller HW anyhow. I mean most of the better guys were or go on to be HW.

I think the original 8 make it hard for some guys in the smaller classes but even then I think there are too many of them.

Though having said that I come from a sport where we have 155, 170, 185, 205 and 205+ divisons so a few fingers of pounds to constitute a divison (in the smaller classes) makes no differences to me. The CW div well if you can have 175-200lb gap then so be it...i guess its not as good as 105lb-108lb or 112-115lb and so on...

dempseyfire wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:It's ironic, because back when there was only 8 divisions and just one belt per weight class, the same notion was used against the light heavyweights; stating that they were 'too small' to have made good heavyweights, or they were simply over blown middleweights who no longer could make the weight.

Throw in the Cruiserweight division when it began to explode in the mid 80's with guys like Holyfield, Camel, Qwai and the like; it was the same thought process. Guys who were 'too small' to make good heavyweights and couldn't make weight for 175.

Every once in a while a fighter would come around, who would jump ship from out of those weight classes and prove the 'experts' wrong. Gene Tunney was a light heavyweight and he was able to win the heavyweight crown, as did Ezzard Charles, as did Michael Spinks and later on, so did Roy Jones, though it wasn't the undisputed championship.

Throw in guys like Tommy Gibbons who challenged Dempsey for the title in the infamous "Shelby, Montana" financial disaster, or Billy Conn going up against Joe Louis and for 12 rounds making The Brown Bomber look silly. Moving forward 50-75 years later, we see James Toney making heavyweights look ridiculous.

Evander Holyfield, though, for all intents and purposes is the only hugely successful Cruiserweight who turned Heavyweight; not only being recognized as the greatest Cruiser of all time, but later becoming a 4x heavyweight champion meeting and defeating the best of his era, the real main players that actually counted.

It really is an unfair assumption, because there is alot of smaller fighters who if matched carefully and come in at the right place at the right time, could beat a much bigger opponent than themselves.

But Light HW was one of those "8" divisions . . .

The 175 lb class has been around in the sport almost as long as fighters have been wearing gloves.

Obviously the shorter the fight, the greater a bigger man generally has an advantage. The bare-knuckle era had very few elite fighters over 220 lbs as in a dragged out fight over 2+ hours, the real big men would simply wear out.

With gloves and shorter duration of fights, it made rational sense to forge a middle ground between the middleweights and heavyweights.

Cruiserweights were created 80 years later, solely for the purpose of greed and greater sanctioning fees. I don't remember any "fighter's union" demanding a new weight class . . . .

The elimination of 15 rounders has been one change that clearly has made it easier for the 'super' HWs (Lennox would've had several more losses if 15 rounders had been present IMO) but the change isn't great enough to justify a new weight class.

You my friend...are clueless, and have clearly never stepped into the ring, much less stepped into the ring at 185 Lbs, with a 235 pound opponent. I have, because there was no Cruiserweight division at the time.
Could I have made 175 ? Probably, dried up to the point muscular atrophy with post dehydration symptoms.

Your silly generalization that a bigger man has an advantage in a shorter fight, is sure fire proof you have no idea what you are talking about in terms of weight management and cutting weight. The fact is, that many times, the total reverse is true

You will never see a sub 225 HW make any lasting impact in the division again, Because no matter what media hacks and web sight babblers try to say, The boxer, just like all other atheletes, have evolved in terms of size and strength,size DOES matter, and that holds true at 12 OR 15 rounds

In the future, I would suggest you choose a venue where there is no one who actually knows what they are taloking about to call you on your ass babble. that way, you wont embarrass yourself

i vote for just one champ :) no weight limits.

bjermaine wrote:i vote for just one champ :) no weight limits.

I await the Valuev vs Darchinyan fight with great anticipation.

I mean, in a 12 rounder, you gotta go with Darchinyan right ?
After all, in a longer fight, the big man is always at a disadvantage !

forreal wrote:

bjermaine wrote:i vote for just one champ :) no weight limits.

I await the Valuev vs Darchinyan fight with great anticipation.

I mean, in a 12 rounder, you gotta go with Darchinyan right ?
After all, in a longer fight, the big man is always at a disadvantage !

uh yeah, that smiley face means i'm kidding. valuev sh!ts bigger than darchinyan.

You will never see a sub 225 HW make any lasting impact in the division again, Because no matter what media hacks and web sight babblers try to say, The boxer, just like all other atheletes, have evolved in terms of size and strength,size DOES matter, and that holds true at 12 OR 15 rounds

depends on what lumbering wind suckers you wish to argue your point about, Lennox Lewis for all intents and purposes has primarily been the most successful big man. Jeffries was big for his era, as he was 6'2" and fought anywhere between 226-250 pounds. Foreman was considered large as well, though he was 6'3" and only fought around 215-220 or so when he was in his prime.

Myself, the big men of today may be more athletic than some of the big men of before, but to me the 'evolution' process you're speaking of hasn't shown the results as you are stating. The big men are bigger, yes, but the fact remains there are few of them, even as back as far as the days of Willard, have the mobility or the speed of a man 220 or lighter, their work rate is horrible.

Lennox Lewis is the only one I have seen, at 6'5" and 245 with an 85" reach, have the hand speed and coordination that was necessary for him to be ultimately succesful against a wide variety of opponents with various styles and records; but he still went the distance with Holyfield, even a passed his best Evander, and though he was robbed the first go around, the second fight just proved that even the best of big men can be thwarted by much smaller, busier, more conditioned fighters.*

*Sure Lewis got the decision in the rematch, but alot of people will argue that Evander Holyfield, if anything, showed Lewis up, not the other way around.

I agree with the dude above who makes the case for a 176 - 200 pound division.

If a bloke weighs 190 - 200 pounds when totally fit why should he have to either dangerously dehydrate to make 175 or bulk up to be a fake heavyweight?

You guys who bleat on about too many weight classes, IMHO, are wrong.

It's the multiple champs at each division that is making a joke of boxing. E.G Clowns like Enzo Maccarinlli claiming to be a 'world' champ are the real problem. I remember a few years back over here on TV Joe Bugner was introduced as former British and European champ and he said, with a straight face, "former world champ too".

13 divisions is fine but one champ at each weight. And , here's one for you, if a bloke is gooed enough, and some are, then they should be allowed to hold multiple titles across the weight classes like in the ld days. Aslong as they are willing and able to defend them of course.

I was 220lb (Im normally 200-205lbs) when I took a fight on a weeks notice against a Kiwi kickboxer who was 6'5 and 360lbs....believe it or not muscled. There was no way I was going to 'box' him. I can say one thing, sure I won but I am not going up to HW. Size and Dense power is a scarey thing. If I like at it in a boxing sense I would be a CW and the romance and money of the HW divison is a great ideal. But to have a man like Lewis, Grant, Valuev, Bowe, Golota standing before you is an interesting prospect for many guys who just arent that 'big'.

A Mike Tyson and Holyfield prove otherwise and a Byrd has some success, but how big a mountain to climb is it for the next generation of smaller HW.

I agree with Forreal....size does matter and athletic power is a dangerous thing to over come. I have never boxed professionally so I am speaking as a fan on that front...i can appreciate the need for smaller heavies to contend in there own division.

And some times, people do exist in between divisions. From 175-200lb thats like 4 weight classes in those small divisions isn't it ?

I however consider 175lb and up as HW as un-realistic as that sounds as far as being a fan, but truth be known I seldom watch a boxing match post 2000 these days any how. Too many old ones to watch first !!

I just consider CW matches to be well matched HW bouts between smaller HW's :P

forreal wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:It's ironic, because back when there was only 8 divisions and just one belt per weight class, the same notion was used against the light heavyweights; stating that they were 'too small' to have made good heavyweights, or they were simply over blown middleweights who no longer could make the weight.

Throw in the Cruiserweight division when it began to explode in the mid 80's with guys like Holyfield, Camel, Qwai and the like; it was the same thought process. Guys who were 'too small' to make good heavyweights and couldn't make weight for 175.

Every once in a while a fighter would come around, who would jump ship from out of those weight classes and prove the 'experts' wrong. Gene Tunney was a light heavyweight and he was able to win the heavyweight crown, as did Ezzard Charles, as did Michael Spinks and later on, so did Roy Jones, though it wasn't the undisputed championship.

Throw in guys like Tommy Gibbons who challenged Dempsey for the title in the infamous "Shelby, Montana" financial disaster, or Billy Conn going up against Joe Louis and for 12 rounds making The Brown Bomber look silly. Moving forward 50-75 years later, we see James Toney making heavyweights look ridiculous.

Evander Holyfield, though, for all intents and purposes is the only hugely successful Cruiserweight who turned Heavyweight; not only being recognized as the greatest Cruiser of all time, but later becoming a 4x heavyweight champion meeting and defeating the best of his era, the real main players that actually counted.

It really is an unfair assumption, because there is alot of smaller fighters who if matched carefully and come in at the right place at the right time, could beat a much bigger opponent than themselves.

But Light HW was one of those "8" divisions . . .

The 175 lb class has been around in the sport almost as long as fighters have been wearing gloves.

Obviously the shorter the fight, the greater a bigger man generally has an advantage. The bare-knuckle era had very few elite fighters over 220 lbs as in a dragged out fight over 2+ hours, the real big men would simply wear out.

With gloves and shorter duration of fights, it made rational sense to forge a middle ground between the middleweights and heavyweights.

Cruiserweights were created 80 years later, solely for the purpose of greed and greater sanctioning fees. I don't remember any "fighter's union" demanding a new weight class . . . .

The elimination of 15 rounders has been one change that clearly has made it easier for the 'super' HWs (Lennox would've had several more losses if 15 rounders had been present IMO) but the change isn't great enough to justify a new weight class.

You my friend...are clueless, and have clearly never stepped into the ring, much less stepped into the ring at 185 Lbs, with a 235 pound opponent. I have, because there was no Cruiserweight division at the time.
Could I have made 175 ? Probably, dried up to the point muscular atrophy with post dehydration symptoms.

Your silly generalization that a bigger man has an advantage in a shorter fight, is sure fire proof you have no idea what you are talking about in terms of weight management and cutting weight. The fact is, that many times, the total reverse is true

You will never see a sub 225 HW make any lasting impact in the division again, Because no matter what media hacks and web sight babblers try to say, The boxer, just like all other atheletes, have evolved in terms of size and strength,size DOES matter, and that holds true at 12 OR 15 rounds

In the future, I would suggest you choose a venue where there is no one who actually knows what they are taloking about to call you on your ass babble. that way, you wont embarrass yourself

Maybe you just sucked buddy. I regularly sparred with 220 lbers when I weighed frikkin' 165 lbs, and I received quite a few licks but was not simply beaten around the bush, even had my good days, and I was simply a casual amateur with no interest in ever going professional (and not close to being a world class fighter). If I could go rounds and even stagger a few guys, I can definitely understand how bigger 190 lb machines like Dempsey could obliterate much bigger men.

Your knowledge of evolution and how it works is non-existant, and scientifically inaccurate. People don't "evolve" in strength/size over 50 years you moron. So would a 215 lb Tyson not be the undisputed champ today?? Or a 210 lb Holyfield?? The likes of Byrd, Povetkin, Chagaev, Toney, Jones Jr, Ibragimov, Chambers etc. are not natural 220 lbers but small Heavyweights, and beyond Wladimir they are/were recently the elite of the division.

It would take hours to go through and list the examples of 185-215 lbers ANNIHILATING good HWs fighters over 225. The list is endless. I've seen 180 lbers kick 230 lbers asses in the gym with my own eyes, it's not some fairytale. Of course, the 185 lber giving up that much weight will have to make up for the difference with speed/skill and endurance, and the margin for error is definitely smaller. But that distance has been bridged frequently throughout history and will continue to be.

In the annals of boxing there are plenty of stories of welterweights decking light heavyweights in the gym, i,e Tommy Hearns, flyweights knocking down lightweights etc, but it's hardly a case for these much lighter men having the power and skills to consistently dominate much bigger men.

I've said it every year I've posted on Boxrec. Guys just keep going on forever about how bad the heavyweight division is with it's fat, lazy, unskilled, no heart, no stamina fighters, but this in shape 200 lb fighter who will clean out the division still isn't on the horizon.

I dont know if the division will ever have a "saviour" whose in the 211-230 range ever again, but every once in a while, a man much smaller in weight and height does come around and not only beats the bigger man but dictates the pace...take Chagaev vs Valuev, as Chagaev is in the 220+ range and though 6'2" he was able to out work the 7' 328 pound Valuev...same thing can be argued with Ruiz when he fought Valuev as well, though he was robbed against the giant.

David Haye supposedly is going to make the jump to heavyweight soon, so who knows, though he will be one of quite a few who tried to be a double threat, we will have to wait and see if he can do anything with the big men of today.