BoxRec

Many say that the Muhammad Ali, circa 1964-67 was the best that ever was. That that Ali of that era, was untouchable, and no heavyweight before or after him, could have beaten him. Here in my opinion are 4 heavyweight greats that would have beaten him every time.

1. Joe Frazier circa 1968-71: This guy when I saw him fight Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Ellis, Bob Foster and the same Ali (slower version, though) was as good as any heavyweight before or since. A relentless fighting machine that used to give you great suffocating pressure. Bobbed and weaved magnificentley, and was a difficult target to hit cleanly. Always going forward and strong like an ox. And that left hook would have been in Ali's chin as many times that you can read this. That same left hook that decapitated Foster and put Ali to the mat for a count of 8 was one the best hooks ever: short, precise and accurate. If Henry Cooper was able to land flush on Ali's chin, what would a hook like Frazier's could do? The Frazier that fought George Foreman in Jamaica in '73 was not the same fighter. He looked like he was ready to be taken. He looked ready to be taken in '72, in which he did not look impressive at all in his 2 title defenses that year. But the Frazier of the 1968-71 era, was fanstastic as he could be. One question: Would any other heavyweight in history beat the Joe Frazier of the night of the FIGHT OF THE CENTURY?


2. Larry Holmes circa 1978-82: Larry once said in his autobiography that when he used to spar with Ali, he used to beat him every time. I do not know is that true, only he, Ali and the people that were there watching the sparring sessions could attest to that. My question is, with a great jab that he had, which was one of the very best in the business, could Ali surpassed that jab? Would Ali speed and reflexes frustrate a great fighter like Larry? I have never seen Holmes being outbox in his prime. Zora Folley outboxed Ali for a couple of rounds and made the fight difficult to him. Holmes is not Zora Folley. Holmes is a gifted boxer with great ring generalship. He may not have Ali's speed, but in terms of will, grit, punch and in any other department, he is as close as Muhammad. A matter of fact, I say that he was a more COMPLETE FIGHTER THAN ALI. He was as strong as Ali and has the same chin. Maybe Ali had better chin. But I do not think that Ali had the punch to stopped Holmes. So this fight would have to go to the scorecards. I pick Larry Holmes by UD. A question: In that night with the fight with Gerry Cooney, would any other heavyweight, past or present would have beaten the great Easton Assassin?

3. Ken Norton circa 1973-76: Looking at the fights that I saw with Ali, the trilogy, there is no doubt in my mind that Norton won all the 3 fights. No matter how you flip it or flop it, Ali lost those fights BIG TIME!!! Well, you may say that that was not the Ali in his prime. Would the Ali of the 60s would have done better? I believe so. Would the Ali of the 60s would have beaten Norton easily? No way. It would have been a sensational contest, no matter who wins. Norton had that style that Ali could not crack nor solved. He was difficult, akward, slick and relentless, especially going to the body. Forget the ass kissing referees and judges. Forget the ass kissing promoters. Let's go with TRUE SPORSMANSHIP HERE. Holding behind the neck would not be a factor here. And if we have TRUE SPORTSMANSHIP, Ali would have had many point deductions, maybe DISQUALIFIED...Let's GET REAL. Norton would punish the body and then the head so many times that this time would be the repetition of round 4 of Ali vs Liston I, but this time, without the strange ointment that went through Ali's eyes....This time he would have been gotten hit and often. Norton was a very clever counter puncher, that kind of fighter that Ali hates to fight. And Ali's speed would not bother Norton that much. Norton wins every time by decision, with Ali crying FOUL of the point deductions that the referees took away from him.


4. Evander Holyfield circa 1990-93: And many would ask, Evander Holyfield? that blown up cruiserweight that could not stop a fly and had difficult time to stop BIGGER MEN? George Foreman, PROBABLY, the greatest puncher of the heavyweight class, could not stopped Ali either...So what is the point? I give Ali this, he was hard to stop or get KO'd. A guy like Frazier or Holmes could stop him because those guys can really hit. Evander would have to throw so much volume of punches to stop "The Greatest" just like he did in the 7th round with an old, slow and fat, but stronger Foreman, and still, did not put Foreman down. Holy likes to trades punches in his prime. He could also box when he wanted it to. His boxing skills were very underrated. He had excellent speed and was a complete fighter. Very clever. His stamina was one of the best. The most complete heavyweight since the greats Jersey Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles. Once Evander stars working the body of Ali, is over. Hit the body and the head would follow. Holyfield just did not do that regurlarly, he did it with extreme and accurate precision. He would not be hurt by Ali's flurries. And he was more complete of a fighter than Muhammad. He had the speed to offset Ali. He may not stop "The Greatest", but he wins by decision, being both at their very best.

5. Riddick Bowe circa 1991-92: This guy could have been the most talented heavyweight ever that stepped into the ring. He was tall, strong, hit hard, and had that great jab. Watching his war with Holyfield I, we forget what a magnificent and exellent fighter he was. He had the total package. A manager's dream. What happened? He also had that EXTRA: Charisma and self determination. He was very confident in his abilities. And for a big man, 6'5" with 235 pounds, was an excellent INSIDE FIGHTER AT HIS VERY BEST. How could Ali cope with a big guy like Bowe? We saw him cope with a guy like the giant Ernie Terrell, but Terrell did not had the physical attributes nor even close the boxing skills of "Big Daddy". Terrell was CLUMSY for his height. He could not used those advantanges against someone 3 inches smaller than he? I don't think that Ali would outjab Bowe. Bowe had a terrific jab. (see the Holyfield fight and the fights before he got greedy and lazy). Bowe did not had the same desire after he won the heavy crown, but if he were a motivated fighter, right now, we would have to call him one of the 3 or 5 greatest heavyweights of all-time. Probably we would have called him the greatest heavyweight ever, depending of his fights with Lennox Lewis and Mike Tyson if he would have fought them and beat them. There was no question in my mind that he would have beaten Tyson or Lewis when he was at his very best. Bowe by knockout in late rounds. Too big and strong, and could fight.

Of these 4 guys, I reckon prime Ali would have beaten all 5 of them.

I like your writing, especially agree with the potential shown by Bowe.

I would change your wording from "would have" to "could have". Because it's just as possible that the reverse could happen. But each of these fighters had the tools, and with a little luck could do the trick. And of course Joe actually did.

Larry did it at at time when these bets would be off. Somewhat true for Kenny as well I suppose.

Bowe would have given a prime Ali some problems, until his questionable work ethic caused him to slow down at which point Ali would have out classed him.

Holyfield doesn't match up well at all. He always had problems with fighters with good jabs, even those with glacier slow ones like the ancient Foreman. I don't think that he would have been much of a match for prime Ali.

The others I see as having a very good chance.

I have to say, a completly ridiculous, biased thread, in fantasyland.

Riddick Bowe and Holyfield "surely" beat Ali?

That argument is "surely" not very smart.

You can make an argument that Holmes and Norton have shots vs the prime Ali (Holmes moreso Norton), but neither is close to being a "sure thing"

I prefer Jim Trunzo's fantasy. At least Trunzo actually knows a tiny bit about boxing.

I like how the title of the thread is "Ali in his prime, 4 guys that surely would have beaten him". Then he names 5 guys!

Unfortunatly, that is the most accurrate thing about the post.

Comedy should be in the Other Sports Section?

I suppose I should have stated that the reverse would me MORE likely. But I like reading different takes on this. Collins however apparently feels your thesis lacks substance as well as viability.

BoxBuzz wrote:I suppose I should have stated that the reverse would me MORE likely. But I like reading different takes on this. Collins however apparently feels your thesis lacks substance as well as viability.

It has all the consistency and appeal of severe diarhoea, Buzz.

Collins2000 wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:I suppose I should have stated that the reverse would me MORE likely. But I like reading different takes on this. Collins however apparently feels your thesis lacks substance as well as viability.

It has all the consistency and appeal of severe diarhoea, Buzz.

Collins, it's sometimes hard get your take on a subject, what with all your word mincing, subtle nuancing and beating around the bush.

Good analysis.
I think Bowe would have trouble against Ali, he seemed to struggle with good boxer-mover types (Tubbs, Biggs, Thomas, Donald) Ok he beat these guys handily but atleast in the case of say Tubbs, it showed that a fast jabber with good ring movement would always trouble him.
All of those guys that faced Bowe were past there best, or never that GREAT, and all of them in some ways had Ali-esque characteristics.

For a Bowe to beat Ali and I am sure a Futch would see this, he would need to work the inside, out muscle Ali, stay busy at all ranges. Dont just follow Ali around eating jabs and rights.

I think this is a very tough fight for both men, but I can see a very tip top Ali getting the decision.

Holyfield,
This is a hard one, you could argue that Jones is most likely the most similar to Holyfield that Ali ever faced and his style did give the green Ali some trouble. Holyfield however though fighting bigger men, never had a fast mover with a quick jab before him. Perhaps a 1992 Holmes who seemed to be more like a lazy mid 70s Ali.

What Holmes did demonstrate however is that a clever boxer, who wants to counter will catch Holyfield and is able to set traps for him. I think though both men have ALOT of trouble with one another on a physical, pressure and a stylistic way..it truely is a pick em match. I am inclined to feel Holyfield has enough to win...but I am not satisfied that he would.

I however do feel that Frazier does beat Ali much the same way he did in 1971.

Norton and Ali is an interesting one. I think that a younger Ali struggles to keep Ken away from him and does lose a decision against Norton. Rematch well...Ali has some revenge.

Holmes, perhaps I am biased, but I think that Larry does win, I do however feel and imagine it to be a rather 'boring' strategic affair that leaves both men looking 'undamaged' at the end. Alot of jabs and not enough power shots as both men make it hard to land cleanly.

I think one can argue for other men to do well against Ali. I think Joe Louis does have a good chance, as does...'shock horror ' a Mike Tyson.


Kym[/list]

Sorry guys, I meant 4 at the beginning, but then Riddick Bowe, an excellent boxer, came into my mind

Sorry is not good enough...go do some push ups

We never saw Ali in his prime.

His theoretical prime would have been 1967 - 1971 I believe.

He would have had his speed, his legs, allied to a more weight & experience.

i dont think any od these guys beat a prime ali more than once in a series of fights ali beats them all

As WW1 and 2 did for so many, as did Ali's 'war'. In any case we saw how good he was.
On the same token we never got to see those living in his shadow at the time get to see if they could beat the man at his best.

p4p1 wrote:i dont think any od these guys beat a prime ali more than once in a series of fights ali beats them all

bullshit, he is not invencible, he got to lose at some point.

Ali beats every one....seriously what have you not learned from here.

Frazier would be my pick.

Norton would always pose serious problems for Ali. They'd always be in competitive fights.

Holmes is harder to judge. But with each having sparred with each other I'd imagine a close cagey fight.

Holyfield was inconsistent. I think an Old Holyfield beats and old Ali but prime for prime I'd go with Ali.

I'm not sure Bowe would be that competitive. If Ali can out-jab Liston he can out jab Bowe and once that happens Bowe has lost his anchor.

All of those guys could beat Ali on thier night. Ali could have beaten them too.

A tyson with rooney v Ali I would favour Ali but Tyson has a shot. Unlike Frazier, Tyson starts fast and wins the opening exchanges. Tyson is knocking Ali out so its a question of getting the early rounds and then doing enough in the middle to stay ahead on the judges card. Its unlikely as Ali is the mentally Tougher of the two and Tyson is not coming on late like Frazier.

Bowe could beat Ali, he was a huge guy who fought well on the inside. But and its a big but the guy only has only one name on his list and I firmly beleived that Holyfield was legitmately sick in the third fight and and Evander been fit he would have won. Bowe was passed his best at 27 and if Holyfield can take him down so can Ali. Tyson and Lewis may have knocked out Bowe.

Frazier beat Ali and held his own in the next two fights losing 7-5 in the second fight which favoured Ali as it was only 12 rounds. Would of liked to have seen the championship rounds in this fight. The thrilla in manilla is a brutal fight and although Frazier was losing both were passed it.

Holyfield would win at least once in a best of three v Ali it would be a question of his game plan and his discipline to implement. Evander has all the skills to pull it of he is better than Norton. This would be an interesting fight.

Lewis could beat Ali if motivated again Ali never fought a guy as tall with the skills of Lewis.

These what if matches a mouth watering its unfortunate that we have not seen two greats while in thier primes for ten years.

Klee Gluckman wrote: These what if matches a mouth watering its unfortunate that we have not seen two greats while in thier primes for ten years.

Are you thinking about Ibeabuchi and Tua? I think their 97' versions would have been beaten Ali and Frazier respectively, but given the short duration of their reigns, I wouldn't call either a 'Great'.

Jaybee
No.

Joe Louis 1936-1939 would have beaten Ali prime.

The argument that Bowe shoulda/woulda/coulda become great is irrelevant. You could say make the same theoretical argument about any other fighter in history.