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Bugner x Cooper - How you score it?
Posted: 25 Apr 2008, 08:15
by Robinson
I just watched the BBC short doco 'The Grudge' about the two men, and I have not seen the fight myself...though I am hoping to get it.
How did you guys score it ? For those that saw it...and any thoughts you have on the bout...
Thanks again
Kym
Posted: 27 Apr 2008, 18:54
by Robinson
I must agree. Bugner did alot and I think because footage of his bouts are hard to come by many people who were not there really under-appreciate him.
Cooper I think does not like to share the lime light, he is always being touted as Britons best HW and so on....sure he beat some good handy non Britons in his day..he also lost a lot to...and left hooking Ali should not be a career highlight.
I am a Bugner fan, but would really love to see more film of him.
The Frazier-Bugner fight was a war. Both men dished out a lot in this one.
Posted: 27 Apr 2008, 23:47
by Collins2000
Robinson wrote:I must agree. Bugner did alot and I think because footage of his bouts are hard to come by many people who were not there really under-appreciate him.
Cooper I think does not like to share the lime light, he is always being touted as Britons best HW and so on....sure he beat some good handy non Britons in his day..he also lost a lot to...and left hooking Ali should not be a career highlight.
I am a Bugner fan, but would really love to see more film of him.
The Frazier-Bugner fight was a war. Both men dished out a lot in this one.
Frazier - Bugner
was a good fight but Bugner engaging in a war was certainly not his usual manner. I think in that one Frazier forced him to either shit or get off the pot. And he decided to shit which made it a good fight.
Another one where he showed some fire was against Richard Dunn who had criticised Bugner's effort in his world title fight with Ali.
And also the one with Winston Allen when the Welshman intentionally butted Big Joe and got pole-axed for his trouble.
I have seen a fair bit of Bugner on TV. And I was even in the crowd on a very cold night at White Hart Lane when he fought a peak Frank Bruno.
These are the fights I have of Aussie Joe on DVD. If you want to trade, PM me. I too am in Australia these days.
Carl Gizzi 0666 Selected Rounds, 6 of 10
Miguel Angel Paez 0697
Chuck Wepner 0698
Henry Cooper 0399 UK / CW / EBU Heavyweight Title
Jack Bodell 0323 UK / EBU Heavyweight Title
Muhammad Ali (1) 1732 ABC - Selected Rounds, 10 of 12
Joe Frazier 3908 CBS – Condition = 3/5
Muhammad Ali (2) 3257 World Heavyweight Title
Richard Dunn 0667 EBU / UK / CW Heavyweight Title
Ron Lyle 3908
Earnie Shavers 3118 HBO – Rare – Condition = 2/5
Winston Allen 4459
Eddie Nielsen 4495 Condition = 3/5
John ‘Dino’ Dennis 0004
Danny Sutton 0004
Marvis Frazier 0013
Steffen Tangstad 0013
James Tillis 3797
David Bey 3797
Frank Bruno 0087 ITV
Posted: 28 Apr 2008, 00:52
by Robinson
Thanks for that Collins, you have a PM.
Posted: 28 Apr 2008, 04:32
by Robinson
I have Bugner vs
Frazier
Shavers
Page
and a YouTube snippet of He vs Ali
Posted: 28 Apr 2008, 06:25
by Robinson
Bugner though 32, did not look as in good shap as the 37yo Shavers.
He looked 'fleshy'.
What suprised me when I first saw it was how small, Shavers looked in comparison.
Round 1, Bugner moved well tried muscling Shavers, but when he felt that right early on....you could see it hurt him. Then at the end, the right over hand followed by the uppercut just slumped him.
Round2, Wary of the OH right and the almost mythical right Bugner tries to clinch and regain his senses. Bugner drives some good uppercuts inside, but has now started to 'bear' into Shavers and try to maul him with mass rather than 'box'. As soon as that right hand touches Bugner he is hurt, so much power...
cut happens and well..shit happens unfortunately. Personally I think Bugner was a bit relieved that he was TKO'd by the cut...in a way there is a clause by such a stoppage. Sucks however for any fight to stop this way.
It did end rather abruptly however.
I think even at 37, Shavers showed that trump card of a right is still very effective.
Posted: 28 Apr 2008, 07:57
by bennie
Cooper was robbed; Bugner's reaction when he gets the verdict says it all.
Disgrace.
Posted: 28 Apr 2008, 09:33
by dempseyfire
mercman wrote:I thought that Harry Gibbs probably got it right. Although it was a close fight I thought that Bugner just shaded it. He did well with the jab and came on strong in the late rounds to win a narrow decision. I also think that Cooper's bitterness is unbecoming and having watched 'The Grudge' it still looks like he hasn't got over it properly.
It's a shame that this fight set the British press against Bugner. He took a lot of stick and for a lad just turned 21 years of age it must have been terribly disheartening. Most heavyweight haven't turned pro at 21 yet Bugner was British, Commonwealth and European Champion by this age. At 22 he went the distance with Ali and at 23 he did the same thing against Joe Frazier. In fact having watched this fight several times I think Bugner was unlucky not to get the decision over Frazier. Most people remember Bugner as fat, middle aged 'Aussie Joe' but Bugner in his youth was a good fighter: big, fast and athletic. I don't think he gets enough credit for his achievements at such a young age.
I agree Bugner's early success is infairly overlooked, he was a veteran of over 50 professional fights at 24 years of age.
Have to disagree about the Frazier fight however. Buger did very well early and showed tremondous guts but Frazier was the clear winner, he also saved Bugner from a knockout but letting him fall to the canvas after slooping over from that hook (which he eventually went down from) and not letting go another flush hook to the chin which would've probably sent Bugner through the ropes.
Posted: 28 Apr 2008, 15:50
by Collins2000
mercman wrote:Carl Gizzi 0666 Selected Rounds, 6 of 10
Miguel Angel Paez 0697
Chuck Wepner 0698
Henry Cooper 0399 UK / CW / EBU Heavyweight Title
Jack Bodell 0323 UK / EBU Heavyweight Title
Muhammad Ali (1) 1732 ABC - Selected Rounds, 10 of 12
Joe Frazier 3908 CBS – Condition = 3/5
Muhammad Ali (2) 3257 World Heavyweight Title
Richard Dunn 0667 EBU / UK / CW Heavyweight Title
Ron Lyle 3908
Earnie Shavers 3118 HBO – Rare – Condition = 2/5
Winston Allen 4459
Eddie Nielsen 4495 Condition = 3/5
John ‘Dino’ Dennis 0004
Danny Sutton 0004
Marvis Frazier 0013
Steffen Tangstad 0013
James Tillis 3797
David Bey 3797
Frank Bruno 0087 ITV
An impressive collection Collins. I've seen virtually all of these with the one exception being Bugner v Bodell. Bugner lost his British and European titles in this fight to the rather limited Bodell in what must surely be rated as his worst performance. I've heard Bugner was really poor - what are your views on this one please Collins?
The BBC recording of this bout was replayed by Eurosport in about 1990. I watched and recorded it at that time.
As I recall, Bodell's awkward southpaw style seemed to give Bugner a lot of trouble. Jack was the agressor and able to land the basic right / left repeatedly, at times he seemed almost unable to miss Bugner.
Although the smaller man, Bodell was able to rough up the statuesque Bugner in close.
Bodell set a cracking pace and, even when badly tired late in the fight, he still seemed to be able to dig deep when Bugner landed some good shots in the championship rounds. Bugner, as was often the case, refused to go all out even though he must have known he was a long way behind.
Bodell pt the icing on the cake by dropping Bugner at the end of the 14th.
As an aside, the crowd was very pro Bodell.
mercman wrote:The other fight that I would interested in hearing about is Bugner v Shavers where it is often claimed that Bugner was KOd by Earnie (although it was actually stopped on cuts). I saw this one at the time but as it was over 25 years ago my recollections are hazy. However, I seem to remember that although Shavers did put Bugner down he bounced straight back up and much as Shavers tried to put him away he couldn't. The fight was stopped in the second round on a cut which Bugner claims was caused by a deliberate head-butt . I would be interested in your views on this fight too.
I think we have discussed this before. Shavers dropped Bugner with an uppercut and Joe dropped like he'd been hit from behind with a lead pipe.
It's my feeling that the cut saved Joe from being stopped. It was a bad match to take, in my opinion, after having only 1 (meaningless) fight in 5 years. I recall he was managed by his wife at that time...
Posted: 28 Apr 2008, 18:50
by Collins2000
Robinson wrote:Thanks for that Collins, you have a PM.
No PM received...
Posted: 28 Apr 2008, 19:01
by Robinson
Sorry,
now you do..
Posted: 28 Apr 2008, 20:06
by Collins2000
I am attempting to upload the first round of Bodell - Bugner to YouTube.
I set it going this morning but can't check it from work.
If anyone wants to see if it there, I called it something like "Bodell - Bugner - Round 1".
Posted: 28 Apr 2008, 20:17
by Robinson
Posted: 28 Apr 2008, 20:23
by Robinson
Good video...thanks again
Posted: 10 May 2008, 15:15
by Collins2000
I put up Bugner - Shavers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHUfbVwn2bE
Any thoughts from those who haven't seen it before?
Posted: 10 May 2008, 15:58
by kikibalt
Collins,
that kid in red getting drop in that clip looks like my son Frankie, who is he?
Posted: 10 May 2008, 17:30
by Collins2000
kikibalt wrote:
Collins,
that kid in red getting drop in that clip looks like my son Frankie, who is he?
Frank,
I think it is Freddie Gonzalez. The guy putting him down is one of Britain's most exciting fighters - Charlie Magri. I'll put the fight up on youtube later today.
Posted: 10 May 2008, 20:29
by Collins2000
Posted: 12 May 2008, 18:34
by Collins2000
mercman wrote:
Thanks for this, Collins. Interesting viewing after all these years. Although it isn't the first time I have seen this it is 20-odd years since I did so here are my thoughts anyway:
As you have said the normally steel-chinned Bugner goes down like he's been shot when Shavers catches him with that big uppercut in the first round. However, perversely, in a way I think this shows Bugner's durability: despite taking a flush shot from one of the biggest punchers around he got straight back up. Shavers also hit Bugner with some heavy leather before and after the knock down and Joe seemed to absorb it well. Also as Bugner later claimed, the cut that caused the stoppage does seem to have come from a butt rather than a punch.
If it had not been for the cut I would have maybe favoured Bugner in this match up. As I said, Joe took Earnie's best shots and, had the fight gone past the middle rounds, Shavers lack of stamina and Bugner's jab and physical advantages may well have been decisive. Joe could box and had good stamina so I would favour him on points over Shavers.
On balance though, I think this was a bad match for Bugner at this stage of his career. He had been very inactive for the previous five years (which should really have been his prime. To busy partying and trying to be a film star) and he looks very big and meaty in this fight. Bugner could have done with being at least 15 lbs less for this fight but perhaps his conditioning is indicative of his approach towards boxing at this point. My guess is that Bugner would have figured that a win against Shavers would have given him a short cut to a title shot and quick access to what was always his sole goal - money. Mistake.
No problems, mercman, glad you enjoyed rewatching it.
Your comments outline a plausible scenario. Shavers did often tire and maybe Joe, without the cut, could have got into the fight.
It's only opinion, but to me Joe didn't look like he fancied the job. Not to the same degree as Conteh didn't fancy the job in the Saad Muhammad rematch, of course, but something along the lines of what Conteh said in his book - "What the hell am I doing here facing this mad man; I should be in a night club somewhere dancing!" or in Joe's case on a beach in The States with Marleen.
He looked a lot better prepared for fighting 6 months later when he came back under the then new kid on the block allegedly. I enjoyed that part of his career.
Re: Bugner x Cooper - How you score it?
Posted: 07 Jun 2008, 13:58
by Collins2000
Re: Bugner x Cooper - How you score it?
Posted: 07 Jun 2008, 14:28
by Expug
Thanks for those Collins 2000.
I sparred quite a bit with Lenny Lapaglia right before he fought Collins, but I never had the oppurtunity to spar with John.
Sibson was a good fighter and I just dont think John was ready for him.
John Collins isan electrician here in Chicago now.
I think he is doing well.
Re: Bugner x Cooper - How you score it?
Posted: 07 Jun 2008, 14:33
by Collins2000
Expug wrote:
Thanks for those Collins 2000.
I sparred quite a bit with Lenny Lapaglia right before he fought Collins, but I never had the oppurtunity to spar with John.
Sibson was a good fighter and I just dont think John was ready for him.
John Collins isan electrician here in Chicago now.
I think he is doing well.
Ah, that's right, it was LaPaglia! My memory is going...
Good to hear Collins is doing well. Too often we here about boxers ending up dead broke or just dead...
Yes, Sibbo was a good fighter. Unlucky for him he peaked at the same time as Hagler.
Last I heard he too was doing well after boxing. Had a building firm in Leicester.
Re: Bugner x Cooper - How you score it?
Posted: 07 Jun 2008, 14:36
by Expug
Collins2000 wrote:Expug wrote:
Thanks for those Collins 2000.
I sparred quite a bit with Lenny Lapaglia right before he fought Collins, but I never had the oppurtunity to spar with John.
Sibson was a good fighter and I just dont think John was ready for him.
John Collins isan electrician here in Chicago now.
I think he is doing well.
Ah, that's right, it was LaPaglia! My memory is going...
Good to hear Collins is doing well. Too often we here about boxers ending up dead broke or just dead...
Yes, Sibbo was a good fighter. Unlucky for him he peaked at the same time as Hagler.
Last I heard he too was doing well after boxing. Had a building firm in Leicester.
Also good to hear that Tonys doing well.
Someone posted a picture of him a while back at a social function.
He had a pint in his hand and he looked happy as a clam.
I liked that picture.
Re: Bugner x Cooper - How you score it?
Posted: 07 Jun 2008, 18:15
by Collins2000
No problem.
I'll put up Bugner vs Neilson when I get a bit of time to get it on the hard drive and split it to cater for Youtube length restrictions.
Both these fellows had vocal wives as their #1 fans...
Re: Bugner x Cooper - How you score it?
Posted: 08 Jun 2008, 01:57
by Robinson
Ha yeah ?:)
I dont know whats worse...a vocal wife or mother :P