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Jimmy Ellis vrs Jerry Quarry(April.27.1968)
Posted: 29 Apr 2008, 18:20
by Brutu
That was the fight for one of the titles(WBA) that was stripped from Ali.
This month marked the 40th anniversary of the tournament won by Ellis.So why didnt ESPN or ESPN Ringside show all the bouts that lead up to it(,instead that recent so called classic crap they been showing past few months
Posted: 29 Apr 2008, 18:25
by Brutu
They didnt even ask Sonny Liston to participated in the tournament.
He may have been capable of winning it.
Can you imagine a Liston vrs Joe Frazier bout in 1968?
Posted: 29 Apr 2008, 18:42
by Robinson
Would be good if they had of done that and given the viewers the back story on it. Alot of casual fans may not know what it was all about.
Would have been interesting if Liston had of been in the tourny, he was worthy enough....after the Ali rematch how much had his stocks sunk ?
It is easy to assume that Liston would have 'owned' the tourny BUT there was some capable and hungry guys in the mix as well and just how effective was Liston at this time...
Who is to say that this 'aged' Liston who was injury prone and however old 40ish? I think Patterson 'aged' better at this stage of the game and who is to say that he could not have done well-ish against him let alone a 'peak' Ellis and Quarry.
Posted: 29 Apr 2008, 18:47
by Robinson
In regards to Liston...are footage of his fights from this period available ?
I have the Martin and Wepner bout but have only seen a clip of him Vs Scrap Iron.
I know he won against his opponents but how did he look and do post Ali 2...was he dominating or are most opinions based on reading results and memories of 57-63.
Posted: 29 Apr 2008, 18:52
by yancey
Brutu wrote:They didnt even ask Sonny Liston to participated in the tournament.
He may have been capable of winning it.
Can you imagine a Liston vrs Joe Frazier bout in 1968?
I think it would have been distasteful to the general public and to the tournament to have as one of the participants a guy who had very possibly taken a dive in a championship fight less than three years prior.
I remember the '67-'68 tournament well, watched every fight, all the while knowing that Frazier would whip every one of them.
Quarry should have been able to beat Ellis in the championship fight, but it is said he was fighting with a back injury. I don't know about that, but I do remember Quarry laying on the ropes all night hoping for Ellis to come to him, instead Dundee kept screaming for Jimmy to keep things in the middle of the ring, which he did.
Liston vs Frazier in '68?
I know there is a style matchup problem for Frazier, but I think Joe beats Sonny down. However, the fight probably wasn't ever going to happen.
(Granberry, I think you may disagree with me on the outcome of Frazier-Liston, but I think Sonny in '68 was on the slide. Still dangerous, though)
Posted: 29 Apr 2008, 19:01
by yancey
Robinson wrote:In regards to Liston...are footage of his fights from this period available ?
I have the Martin and Wepner bout but have only seen a clip of him Vs Scrap Iron.
I know he won against his opponents but how did he look and do post Ali 2...was he dominating or are most opinions based on reading results and memories of 57-63.
Liston's fights, post '65 and the Lewiston farce, were not well publicized at all. I was an avid reader of boxing magazines back then, and I know the stories of his fights after Lewiston got very little play in the magazines. I also think at least a few of his fights were overseas, mainly in Sweden, and were outside the public eye in the States. He was definitely personna non grata after the Lewiston mess.
Posted: 29 Apr 2008, 19:02
by Robinson
Ellis beat Quarry to the punch and landed alot of good shots on him. It was a close fight, but I remember thinking after watching in that Ellis won.
I shall score it later.
I think Frazier gets a TKO against Liston in 68.
kym
Posted: 29 Apr 2008, 19:09
by yancey
Robinson wrote:Ellis beat Quarry to the punch and landed alot of good shots on him. It was a close fight, but I remember thinking after watching in that Ellis won.
I shall score it later.
I think Frazier gets a TKO against Liston in 68.
kym
Agreed that Ellis did win the decision, fair and square.
What I question in the fight are Quarry's tactics. I think he should have been more aggressive. I only watched the fight once, when it actually happened, but watch for one punch from Quarry, a left hook I think, that rocked Jimmy pretty good. It was out towards the center of the ring and happened somewhere in the middle to later portion of the fight.
Let's see how good my memory is.
Posted: 29 Apr 2008, 19:13
by Robinson
when i get home from work I shall test you ! :)
Posted: 29 Apr 2008, 21:47
by raylawpc
yancey wrote:Robinson wrote:Ellis beat Quarry to the punch and landed alot of good shots on him. It was a close fight, but I remember thinking after watching in that Ellis won.
I shall score it later.
I think Frazier gets a TKO against Liston in 68.
kym
Agreed that Ellis did win the decision, fair and square.
What I question in the fight are Quarry's tactics. I think he should have been more aggressive. I only watched the fight once, when it actually happened, but watch for one punch from Quarry, a left hook I think, that rocked Jimmy pretty good. It was out towards the center of the ring and happened somewhere in the middle to later portion of the fight.
Let's see how good my memory is.
Hard to be aggressive when you're fighting somebody like Jimmy Ellis with a fractured vertebra in your spine.
Posted: 29 Apr 2008, 21:55
by yancey
raylawpc wrote:yancey wrote:Robinson wrote:Ellis beat Quarry to the punch and landed alot of good shots on him. It was a close fight, but I remember thinking after watching in that Ellis won.
I shall score it later.
I think Frazier gets a TKO against Liston in 68.
kym
Agreed that Ellis did win the decision, fair and square.
What I question in the fight are Quarry's tactics. I think he should have been more aggressive. I only watched the fight once, when it actually happened, but watch for one punch from Quarry, a left hook I think, that rocked Jimmy pretty good. It was out towards the center of the ring and happened somewhere in the middle to later portion of the fight.
Let's see how good my memory is.
Hard to be aggressive when you're fighting somebody like Jimmy Ellis with a fractured vertebra in your spine.
If you'll notice, I mentioned that back injury in my first post.
If there indeed was a back injury like a fractured vertebrae in the back, then Quarry had no freaking business taking the fight right then, despite what others wanted. Quarry always said he was ashamed of himself in that fight.
It could have been postponed to give him time to recover.
Posted: 29 Apr 2008, 21:57
by raylawpc
Brutu wrote:They didnt even ask Sonny Liston to participated in the tournament.
He may have been capable of winning it.
Can you imagine a Liston vrs Joe Frazier bout in 1968?
I think Sonny Liston in 1968 was Yancy Durham's worst nightmare. 1968 was Liston's best post-championship year. He ran off seven straight KOs against some pretty fair competition. Frazier, on the otherhand, had not yet reached his peak. Frazier struggled in the early rounds against Mathis, and did not look particularly good against Bonavena. He also got rocked early by Manuel Ramos, who did not have the power of a Sonny Liston.
I could see Liston whipping a young Frazier in the same manner Foreman did in 1973. But if Liston didn't get to him early, and the fight lasted beyond the middle rounds, I could also see Frazier outworking an aging Sonny Liston.
Posted: 29 Apr 2008, 21:58
by yancey
yancey wrote:raylawpc wrote:yancey wrote:
Agreed that Ellis did win the decision, fair and square.
What I question in the fight are Quarry's tactics. I think he should have been more aggressive. I only watched the fight once, when it actually happened, but watch for one punch from Quarry, a left hook I think, that rocked Jimmy pretty good. It was out towards the center of the ring and happened somewhere in the middle to later portion of the fight.
Let's see how good my memory is.
Hard to be aggressive when you're fighting somebody like Jimmy Ellis with a fractured vertebra in your spine.
If you'll notice, I mentioned that back injury in my first post.
If there indeed was a back injury like a fractured vertebrae in the back, then Quarry had no freaking business taking the fight right then, despite what others wanted. Quarry always said he was ashamed of himself in that fight. You always enter a proposition giving yourself the best chance to win, that is what winners do.
It could have been postponed to give him time to recover.
Posted: 29 Apr 2008, 22:02
by raylawpc
yancey wrote:raylawpc wrote:yancey wrote:
Agreed that Ellis did win the decision, fair and square.
What I question in the fight are Quarry's tactics. I think he should have been more aggressive. I only watched the fight once, when it actually happened, but watch for one punch from Quarry, a left hook I think, that rocked Jimmy pretty good. It was out towards the center of the ring and happened somewhere in the middle to later portion of the fight.
Let's see how good my memory is.
Hard to be aggressive when you're fighting somebody like Jimmy Ellis with a fractured vertebra in your spine.
If you'll notice, I mentioned that back injury in my first post.
If there indeed was a back injury like a fractured vertebrae in the back, then Quarry had no freaking business taking the fight right then, despite what others wanted. Quarry always said he was ashamed of himself in that fight.
It could have been postponed to give him time to recover.
You'll get no disagreement from me, Yancey. I think Quarry was sometimes
too macho for his own good. (And, BTW, I missed your earlier post.)
Posted: 29 Apr 2008, 22:03
by Robinson
I disagree but Ill admit that I have seen limited film of Liston at this time. I have seen the Wepner and Martin bouts.
Liston was still effective up until his death no doubt about that.
Posted: 29 Apr 2008, 22:06
by raylawpc
Robinson, I think the Scrapiron Johnson fight is on YouTube, but that was in 1969.
Because of his age, I don't think you can compare the 1968 with the late 69 or 1970 version of Liston.
By the time Frazier fought Quarry in '69, I would have favored Frazier all the way.
Posted: 29 Apr 2008, 22:11
by Robinson
Ive got that brief clip. Good bout from wat i saw.
Posted: 29 Apr 2008, 22:19
by granberry
Bottom Line:
Yank Durham would not let Frazier in the ring with Liston.
Posted: 29 Apr 2008, 22:23
by yancey
granberry wrote:Bottom Line:
Yank Durham would not let Frazier in the ring with Liston.
He also advised Smoke to retire after Ali I.
Wish Joe would have taken that advice.
Posted: 29 Apr 2008, 22:29
by Robinson
And Cus didnt want Patterson to fight Liston either
but Patterson still got in there.
I however think that Frazier would have done well is all.
Posted: 29 Apr 2008, 22:32
by p4p1
yancey wrote:raylawpc wrote:yancey wrote:
Agreed that Ellis did win the decision, fair and square.
What I question in the fight are Quarry's tactics. I think he should have been more aggressive. I only watched the fight once, when it actually happened, but watch for one punch from Quarry, a left hook I think, that rocked Jimmy pretty good. It was out towards the center of the ring and happened somewhere in the middle to later portion of the fight.
Let's see how good my memory is.
Hard to be aggressive when you're fighting somebody like Jimmy Ellis with a fractured vertebra in your spine.
If you'll notice, I mentioned that back injury in my first post.
If there indeed was a back injury like a fractured vertebrae in the back, then Quarry had no freaking business taking the fight right then, despite what others wanted. Quarry always said he was ashamed of himself in that fight.
It could have been postponed to give him time to recover.
a broken vertibrae is about 6 months with NO exercise so he would need at least 9 months
Posted: 29 Apr 2008, 22:33
by Goodnight, Irene
Durham didn't want to risk it, though that's not to say he conclusively thought Frazier couldn't beat Liston.
Myself, I would take Frazier to beat Liston in 1968, & by stoppage, at that. Liston was losing power (the snap was going, if you watch the footage), & he wasn't busy enough to get Frazier out of there, for mine. He hadn't the energy. Frazier would have broken him down, despite some hairy moments.
Posted: 29 Apr 2008, 22:35
by Robinson
Plus Ali proved he could be dropped with one well placed shot ;)
Posted: 29 Apr 2008, 22:37
by granberry
yancey wrote:granberry wrote:Bottom Line:
Yank Durham would not let Frazier in the ring with Liston.
He also advised Smoke to retire after Ali I.
Wish Joe would have taken that advice.
Durham died in August, 1973. He was only 53.
So Frazier had no one looking out for his interests in the 2nd Ali fight (where Eddie Futch did nothing while Tony Perez gave Ali over 100 warnings for pulling Frazier's head down without ever taking a point away from Ali) or for the 3rd Ali fight.
Cornermen can count for a lot. Notice Ali did little fouling in the first Frazier fight with Durham in Frazier's corner. It was the referee Merchante who fouled Frazier in that fight.
Posted: 29 Apr 2008, 22:41
by p4p1
would liston frazier be a war or wouldnt it be that type of fight?