BoxRec

entering the tyson fight he was a massive underdog but how come a guy that was ranked so highly in the world was given such little chance from memory was he ranked 2nd or 3rd behind holyfieldhe must of had some impressive victorys to be ranked that highly

Well at the time Tyson was looking unbeatable, seasoned heavyweights were frightened when they fought him and Douglas had fallen apart against Tony Tucker so he was given even less chance than say Frank Bruno though his form had been more impressive going into the fight. Guys who had never been stopped like Thomas and Tubbs were getting steamrollered so Douglas surviving 4 rounds would have been a surprise going in.

It was an absolute shocker, the biggest upset I've seen in my time following boxing for sure.

Flump wrote:Well at the time Tyson was looking unbeatable, seasoned heavyweights were frightened when they fought him and Douglas had fallen apart against Tony Tucker so he was given even less chance than say Frank Bruno though his form had been more impressive going into the fight. Guys who had never been stopped like Thomas and Tubbs were getting steamrollered so Douglas surviving 4 rounds would have been a surprise going in.

It was an absolute shocker, the biggest upset I've seen in my time following boxing for sure.

The often claimed odds of 50-1 or whatever, were probably not even available. I only got either 20 or 25-1 on my bet. While it was a huge upset, it was not completely unexpected by those who had seen both men fight a few times.

The odds were supposedly 42-1

HH, have you had any luck lining up a fight? I'm still planning on hitting the road as long it's not too a crazy a distance.

Every time I ask around, and they always ask me "Whats your record?" and I tell em I'm trying to make my debut, I hit a dead end every time. I imagine not too many promoters want to waste their time on an unknown, let alone one with no great amateur background to speak of.

I'm still trying though mate HH is never a quitter

Buster Douglas was a gifted boxer.

And he was tall (6'5") which in his case was an advantage.

His father, Billy Douglas, was a top level middleweight/lightheavyweight from Ohio who would fight in Philadelphia and get cheated over and over again by the Philly officials. Trainers told me about fights they had seen in Philly where Billy Douglas had knocked down his Philadelphia opponent (Saad Muhammed, and others) and the ref would give the guy all day to recover and then later stop the fight as a TKO in Douglas' opponent's favor when Douglas was not hurt as compared with the condition his opponent had been in earlier.

[The Kevin Howard-Sugar Ray Leonard routine].

I saw an old Billy Douglas lose to a young, powerful Jerry Martin in Philly.
Douglas was not winning the fight, although he was always dangerous because he punched SO HARD.

In the last round (10th) the Philly ref stopped the fight and gave Martin a TKO win.

I talked to Douglas immediately after the fight. He said, "Why did they stop it. There was no reason to stop it. Every time he jabbed, I jabbed. Every time he threw a right hand, I threw a right hand."

I always carried four wax quart cartons of orange juice with me in a paper bag when I went to fight card and gave them to fighters whose performances I liked after the card in the dressing room (as long as they didn't have a cut mouth).

I handed a carton of orange juice to Douglas minutes after he came down from the ring after his fight with Martin. (It was a crummy arena where the room used as a dressing room was jammed in right next to the side of the ring ).

Douglas took the carton in his hands and tried to open it, but his hands were not coordinated enough to rip the top open. ( a combination of just fighting with closed fists for ten rounds and his upset at his being cheated by the Philly officials again).

I took it out of his hands and opened it and gave it back to him and he drank it down.

When a fight is over a fighter is dehydrated and needs something to replenish his dehydrated system. I was always amazed to see no trainer ever did anything about that at the end of a fight.

At that moment the system will grab at whatever is put in it, and it will go deep into the blood stream.
I have seen spent fighters come back to life to a good degree from a drink of a carton of orange juice immediately after a fight. Several of them said to me, "Hey, this is great. Much better than my manager and me having drinks [alchohol] back at the hotel room."

The ignorance of the physical system is breathtaking in many cases of the people (parasites) who position themselves around fighters.

As for Buster Douglas, Billy Douglas' son, he was a gifted fighter who had genuine boxing ability, usually won the first rounds of his fights, and then faded and lost against good opponents, almost as if he had a built in loser's psychological makeup. Trainers said to me, "He's very good, but then he always collapses on cue later in a fight."

For his fight with Tyson, Buster Douglas had nothing to lose, so there was NO psychological pressure on him. Combined with that, he had a dislike of Tyson, and in this one case, a strong psychological urge to win the fight. That's what he did. Of course this was a Tyson whose physical system had been harmed by the lithium and Thorazine he took in combination at the insistence of his TV star wife, gotten illegally through a very old, retired 'doctor' who sent the drugs to Tyson's wife illegally through the mail.

Douglas really wanted to win that fight, and he did, although for several days afterward it looked like Don King was going to get the result reversed.

I remember hearing Archie Moore say on a local sports talk show of Buster Douglas and his performance in the Tyson fight, "He was jabbing like a welterweight. His right hands were landing high on the head, but they still bothered Tyson. And he fought well inside, too."

Buster Douglas fought one great fight in his career.

For his loss to the mediocrity Holyfield, Douglas did not train a single day.
None of that was to Holyfield's credit. Douglas' shrunken lower legs for the Holyfield fight showed he had done no running at all. His weight was HOW MANY pounds heavier than for his fight with Tyson?

Why did that happen?

Because he could not take the psychological strain of being expected to be a winner and a champion.

But the circumstances for his fight against Tyson happened to come out just right for him to be a winner psychologically. Several trainers pointed out to me the proof of that was when Douglas was knocked down by Tyson after winning every round up to that point.

As he sat on the canvas Douglas angrily hit his glove down against the canvas in a show of disgust that he had allowed that to happen. To these trainers that illustrated that he had a total winner's state of mind for that fight.

And of course he was facing a Tyson who had been destroyed as a championship athlete by the powerful psychiatric drugs he had taken, combined with the fact that having left his legal manager Bill Cayton to go over to the sicko Don King, Tyson now had a "corner" consisting of clowns who were his buddies he watched television with, who had zero qualifications to be in any fighter's corner.

Granberry

thanks for that story. really interesting stuff much appreciated.

You know I must agree 100% about what you say in regards to re-hydration...restoring electrolytes, glycogen etc.

I think Douglas was such an under dog for a few reasons....

The experts are not experts !

Take for example Douglas vs McCall....the commentators and experts instead of watching the bout where to busy wanking on about celebrity gossip.

Douglas while not leading an impressive ATG career up until Tyson did in my opinion demonstrate good skills.

Even in his loss to Tucker he showed a good jab uppercut and basic ingredients.

Being an under dog or expected to win especially when not in front of a home town audience is a huge edge in my opinion. I have found that the pressure of being expected to win is a heavy burden.

42-1 odds is just retarded. Seriously. Did Larry merchant think that up whie rehearsing his Merchantisms.

no, odds were really 42 or 43 to 1 odds at a couple of casinos if i recall correctly. most casinos didn't even lay odds on a douglas victory. what could have been. douglas was brilliant that night. what if he could have trained like that his whole career?? at that point, most people would have considered tyson to be on his way to being the greatest heavyweight champ ever. i'll never forget watching that fight with my dad. what an upset. i hope it's ok if i posted here. i mean, i never gave buster douglas' dad orange juice but it was by far the greatest upset in boxing i've ever seen.

..douglas fought a near-perfect fight that night. i say "near" because he made just one mistake, ducking into a tyson uppercut, and then staying down so long he almost didn't beat the count. any fighter who wants to know how to make the most of his height and reach should study this fight.

re: liquids....john. l.suillivan (there may have been others) used to sip brandy and water during his fights. some thought it gave them strength!!!
once he began vomiting between rounds and somebody in the crowd said,

"he's throwing up the water and keping the brandy."

If I remember only one or two casino sportsbooks even took wagers on this fight. Odds were about 40-1 I think.

very interesting read granberry

is it only now that we look back we can see that the cracks in tyson had started to appear or could people see them back then

bjermaine wrote: i hope it's ok if i posted here. i mean, i never gave buster douglas' dad orange juice but it was by far the greatest upset in boxing i've ever seen.

:)

granberry wrote:Buster Douglas was a gifted boxer.

And he was tall (6'5") which in his case was an advantage.

His father, Billy Douglas, was a top level middleweight/lightheavyweight from Ohio who would fight in Philadelphia and get cheated over and over again by the Philly officials. Trainers told me about fights they had seen in Philly where Billy Douglas had knocked down his Philadelphia opponent (Saad Muhammed, and others) and the ref would give the guy all day to recover and then later stop the fight as a TKO in Douglas' opponent's favor when Douglas was not hurt as compared with the condition his opponent had been in earlier.

[The Kevin Howard-Sugar Ray Leonard routine].

I saw an old Billy Douglas lose to a young, powerful Jerry Martin in Philly.
Douglas was not winning the fight, although he was always dangerous because he punched SO HARD.

In the last round (10th) the Philly ref stopped the fight and gave Martin a TKO win.

I talked to Douglas immediately after the fight. He said, "Why did they stop it. There was no reason to stop it. Every time he jabbed, I jabbed. Every time he threw a right hand, I threw a right hand."

I always carried four wax quart cartons of orange juice with me in a paper bag when I went to fight card and gave them to fighters whose performances I liked after the card in the dressing room (as long as they didn't have a cut mouth).

I handed a carton of orange juice to Douglas minutes after he came down from the ring after his fight with Martin. (It was a crummy arena where the room used as a dressing room was jammed in right next to the side of the ring ).

Douglas took the carton in his hands and tried to open it, but his hands were not coordinated enough to rip the top open. ( a combination of just fighting with closed fists for ten rounds and his upset at his being cheated by the Philly officials again).

I took it out of his hands and opened it and gave it back to him and he drank it down.

When a fight is over a fighter is dehydrated and needs something to replenish his dehydrated system. I was always amazed to see no trainer ever did anything about that at the end of a fight.

At that moment the system will grab at whatever is put in it, and it will go deep into the blood stream.
I have seen spent fighters come back to life to a good degree from a drink of a carton of orange juice immediately after a fight. Several of them said to me, "Hey, this is great. Much better than my manager and me having drinks [alchohol] back at the hotel room."

The ignorance of the physical system is breathtaking in many cases of the people (parasites) who position themselves around fighters.

As for Buster Douglas, Billy Douglas' son, he was a gifted fighter who had genuine boxing ability, usually won the first rounds of his fights, and then faded and lost against good opponents, almost as if he had a built in loser's psychological makeup. Trainers said to me, "He's very good, but then he always collapses on cue later in a fight."

For his fight with Tyson, Buster Douglas had nothing to lose, so there was NO psychological pressure on him. Combined with that, he had a dislike of Tyson, and in this one case, a strong psychological urge to win the fight. That's what he did. Of course this was a Tyson whose physical system had been harmed by the lithium and Thorazine he took in combination at the insistence of his TV star wife, gotten illegally through a very old, retired 'doctor' who sent the drugs to Tyson's wife illegally through the mail.

Douglas really wanted to win that fight, and he did, although for several days afterward it looked like Don King was going to get the result reversed.

I remember hearing Archie Moore say on a local sports talk show of Buster Douglas and his performance in the Tyson fight, "He was jabbing like a welterweight. His right hands were landing high on the head, but they still bothered Tyson. And he fought well inside, too."

Buster Douglas fought one great fight in his career.

For his loss to the mediocrity Holyfield, Douglas did not train a single day.
None of that was to Holyfield's credit. Douglas' shrunken lower legs for the Holyfield fight showed he had done no running at all. His weight was HOW MANY pounds heavier than for his fight with Tyson?

Why did that happen?

Because he could not take the psychological strain of being expected to be a winner and a champion.

But the circumstances for his fight against Tyson happened to come out just right for him to be a winner psychologically. Several trainers pointed out to me the proof of that was when Douglas was knocked down by Tyson after winning every round up to that point.

As he sat on the canvas Douglas angrily hit his glove down against the canvas in a show of disgust that he had allowed that to happen. To these trainers that illustrated that he had a total winner's state of mind for that fight.

And of course he was facing a Tyson who had been destroyed as a championship athlete by the powerful psychiatric drugs he had taken, combined with the fact that having left his legal manager Bill Cayton to go over to the sicko Don King, Tyson now had a "corner" consisting of clowns who were his buddies he watched television with, who had zero qualifications to be in any fighter's corner.

Read with interest, credible and appreciated. I can absolutely concur regarding what those drugs can do the "warrior" spirit, totaly compromising his determination and thus his ability. Not to undercut the work that Douglas did that night that just might have gotten him past an even better Tyson.

As always I have a hard time with your assessment of Holyfield, but that does not diminish the relevancy of everything else you offered here.

Does anybody have any heavyweight rankings of 1989-1991 from any source?

Halfamill wrote:Does anybody have any heavyweight rankings of 1989-1991 from any source?

ring mag.

here's the 80s
http://www.boxrec.com/media/index.php/T ... ght--1980s

the 90s
http://www.boxrec.com/media/index.php/T ... ght--1990s

bjermaine wrote:

Halfamill wrote:Does anybody have any heavyweight rankings of 1989-1991 from any source?

ring mag.

here's the 80s
http://www.boxrec.com/media/index.php/T ... ght--1980s

the 90s
http://www.boxrec.com/media/index.php/T ... ght--1990s

Thanks

granberry wrote:Buster Douglas was a gifted boxer.

And he was tall (6'5") which in his case was an advantage.

His father, Billy Douglas, was a top level middleweight/lightheavyweight from Ohio who would fight in Philadelphia and get cheated over and over again by the Philly officials. Trainers told me about fights they had seen in Philly where Billy Douglas had knocked down his Philadelphia opponent (Saad Muhammed, and others) and the ref would give the guy all day to recover and then later stop the fight as a TKO in Douglas' opponent's favor when Douglas was not hurt as compared with the condition his opponent had been in earlier.

[The Kevin Howard-Sugar Ray Leonard routine].

I saw an old Billy Douglas lose to a young, powerful Jerry Martin in Philly.
Douglas was not winning the fight, although he was always dangerous because he punched SO HARD.

In the last round (10th) the Philly ref stopped the fight and gave Martin a TKO win.

I talked to Douglas immediately after the fight. He said, "Why did they stop it. There was no reason to stop it. Every time he jabbed, I jabbed. Every time he threw a right hand, I threw a right hand."

I always carried four wax quart cartons of orange juice with me in a paper bag when I went to fight card and gave them to fighters whose performances I liked after the card in the dressing room (as long as they didn't have a cut mouth).

I handed a carton of orange juice to Douglas minutes after he came down from the ring after his fight with Martin. (It was a crummy arena where the room used as a dressing room was jammed in right next to the side of the ring ).

Douglas took the carton in his hands and tried to open it, but his hands were not coordinated enough to rip the top open. ( a combination of just fighting with closed fists for ten rounds and his upset at his being cheated by the Philly officials again).

I took it out of his hands and opened it and gave it back to him and he drank it down.

When a fight is over a fighter is dehydrated and needs something to replenish his dehydrated system. I was always amazed to see no trainer ever did anything about that at the end of a fight.

At that moment the system will grab at whatever is put in it, and it will go deep into the blood stream.
I have seen spent fighters come back to life to a good degree from a drink of a carton of orange juice immediately after a fight. Several of them said to me, "Hey, this is great. Much better than my manager and me having drinks [alchohol] back at the hotel room."

The ignorance of the physical system is breathtaking in many cases of the people (parasites) who position themselves around fighters.

As for Buster Douglas, Billy Douglas' son, he was a gifted fighter who had genuine boxing ability, usually won the first rounds of his fights, and then faded and lost against good opponents, almost as if he had a built in loser's psychological makeup. Trainers said to me, "He's very good, but then he always collapses on cue later in a fight."

For his fight with Tyson, Buster Douglas had nothing to lose, so there was NO psychological pressure on him. Combined with that, he had a dislike of Tyson, and in this one case, a strong psychological urge to win the fight. That's what he did. Of course this was a Tyson whose physical system had been harmed by the lithium and Thorazine he took in combination at the insistence of his TV star wife, gotten illegally through a very old, retired 'doctor' who sent the drugs to Tyson's wife illegally through the mailDouglas really wanted to win that fight, and he did, although for several days afterward it looked like Don King was going to get the result reversed.

I remember hearing Archie Moore say on a local sports talk show of Buster Douglas and his performance in the Tyson fight, "He was jabbing like a welterweight. His right hands were landing high on the head, but they still bothered Tyson. And he fought well inside, too."

Buster Douglas fought one great fight in his career.

For his loss to the mediocrity Holyfield, Douglas did not train a single day.
None of that was to Holyfield's credit. Douglas' shrunken lower legs for the Holyfield fight showed he had done no running at all. His weight was HOW MANY pounds heavier than for his fight with Tyson?

Why did that happen?

Because he could not take the psychological strain of being expected to be a winner and a champion.

But the circumstances for his fight against Tyson happened to come out just right for him to be a winner psychologically. Several trainers pointed out to me the proof of that was when Douglas was knocked down by Tyson after winning every round up to that point.

As he sat on the canvas Douglas angrily hit his glove down against the canvas in a show of disgust that he had allowed that to happen. To these trainers that illustrated that he had a total winner's state of mind for that fight.

And of course he was facing a Tyson who had been destroyed as a championship athlete by the powerful psychiatric drugs he had taken, combined with the fact that having left his legal manager Bill Cayton to go over to the sicko Don King, Tyson now had a "corner" consisting of clowns who were his buddies he watched television with, who had zero qualifications to be in any fighter's corner.

Tyson was getting the best medical/psychiatric care money can buy and was being prescribed Zoloft...Why would he be getting lithium and thorazine; fifties era pharmaceuticals, from some "old fight doctor" through the mail?

What's his name so we can verify the story?

I think Douglas himself summed it up the best: "I'm a fighter, not an athlete."

Besides, it always seemed to me that boxing was the last thing that Douglas wanted in life, it was his way of being close to his father, and after he gave up against Tucker, it drove a wedge that was never completely healed between the two. It was the death of Douglas's mother that drove him to fight the perfect heavyweight fight.

bjermaine wrote:no, odds were really 42 or 43 to 1 odds at a couple of casinos if i recall correctly.

tzyuforever wrote:If I remember only one or two casino sportsbooks even took wagers on this fight. Odds were about 40-1 I think.

Correct.

Only one casino reported one big bet on Douglas, at (I believe) 42-1.


As far as why Douglas was such a big underdog despite being highly ranked, it was mainly for two reasons:
1) The widespread (mis)perception of Tyson as invincible.
2) Douglas had only just broken into the upper echelon of the rankings the previous year, when he beat a fading Trevor Berbick (which was also how Truth Williams had earned his shot at Tyson). Before that, he had lost to two Tyson victims (Jesse Fergusson and Tony Tucker), and also had an embarassing loss to freakshow journeyman Mike White. His rise to the top was also in part because other, more distinguished contenders had already been beaten by Tyson and/or Holyfield and were on their declines.

My2Sense wrote:

bjermaine wrote:no, odds were really 42 or 43 to 1 odds at a couple of casinos if i recall correctly.

tzyuforever wrote:If I remember only one or two casino sportsbooks even took wagers on this fight. Odds were about 40-1 I think.

Correct.

Only one casino reported one big bet on Douglas, at (I believe) 42-1.


As far as why Douglas was such a big underdog despite being highly ranked, it was mainly for two reasons:
1) The widespread (mis)perception of Tyson as invincible.
2) Douglas had only just broken into the upper echelon of the rankings the previous year, when he beat a fading Trevor Berbick (which was also how Truth Williams had earned his shot at Tyson). Before that, he had lost to two Tyson victims (Jesse Fergusson and Tony Tucker), and also had an embarassing loss to freakshow journeyman Mike White. His rise to the top was also in part because other, more distinguished contenders had already been beaten by Tyson and/or Holyfield and were on their declines.

My friend picked Douglas to win but I thought he was just being contrary....

I'm not an expert on gambling but I thought if the bets become ridiculously one sided they are taken off the board...

"Holyfield trainer Lou Duva told the story years later, claiming that he had sent a huge combo pizza to Douglas' room each night, with a note saying, "Compliments of the hotel. Good luck in the fight, champ!" Douglas always accepted the pizza, and in the morning, the box was always empty"

last we'd seen of douglas..hed fought a slow boring lacklustre fight with tucker...he wasnt fat but he just looked fought like a kind of chapman

granberry wrote:Buster Douglas was a gifted boxer.

And he was tall (6'5") which in his case was an advantage.

His father, Billy Douglas, was a top level middleweight/lightheavyweight from Ohio who would fight in Philadelphia and get cheated over and over again by the Philly officials. Trainers told me about fights they had seen in Philly where Billy Douglas had knocked down his Philadelphia opponent (Saad Muhammed, and others) and the ref would give the guy all day to recover and then later stop the fight as a TKO in Douglas' opponent's favor when Douglas was not hurt as compared with the condition his opponent had been in earlier.

[The Kevin Howard-Sugar Ray Leonard routine].

I saw an old Billy Douglas lose to a young, powerful Jerry Martin in Philly.
Douglas was not winning the fight, although he was always dangerous because he punched SO HARD.

In the last round (10th) the Philly ref stopped the fight and gave Martin a TKO win.

I talked to Douglas immediately after the fight. He said, "Why did they stop it. There was no reason to stop it. Every time he jabbed, I jabbed. Every time he threw a right hand, I threw a right hand."

I always carried four wax quart cartons of orange juice with me in a paper bag when I went to fight card and gave them to fighters whose performances I liked after the card in the dressing room (as long as they didn't have a cut mouth).

I handed a carton of orange juice to Douglas minutes after he came down from the ring after his fight with Martin. (It was a crummy arena where the room used as a dressing room was jammed in right next to the side of the ring ).

Douglas took the carton in his hands and tried to open it, but his hands were not coordinated enough to rip the top open. ( a combination of just fighting with closed fists for ten rounds and his upset at his being cheated by the Philly officials again).

I took it out of his hands and opened it and gave it back to him and he drank it down.

When a fight is over a fighter is dehydrated and needs something to replenish his dehydrated system. I was always amazed to see no trainer ever did anything about that at the end of a fight.

At that moment the system will grab at whatever is put in it, and it will go deep into the blood stream.
I have seen spent fighters come back to life to a good degree from a drink of a carton of orange juice immediately after a fight. Several of them said to me, "Hey, this is great. Much better than my manager and me having drinks [alchohol] back at the hotel room."

The ignorance of the physical system is breathtaking in many cases of the people (parasites) who position themselves around fighters.

As for Buster Douglas, Billy Douglas' son, he was a gifted fighter who had genuine boxing ability, usually won the first rounds of his fights, and then faded and lost against good opponents, almost as if he had a built in loser's psychological makeup. Trainers said to me, "He's very good, but then he always collapses on cue later in a fight."

For his fight with Tyson, Buster Douglas had nothing to lose, so there was NO psychological pressure on him. Combined with that, he had a dislike of Tyson, and in this one case, a strong psychological urge to win the fight. That's what he did. Of course this was a Tyson whose physical system had been harmed by the lithium and Thorazine he took in combination at the insistence of his TV star wife, gotten illegally through a very old, retired 'doctor' who sent the drugs to Tyson's wife illegally through the mail.

Douglas really wanted to win that fight, and he did, although for several days afterward it looked like Don King was going to get the result reversed.

I remember hearing Archie Moore say on a local sports talk show of Buster Douglas and his performance in the Tyson fight, "He was jabbing like a welterweight. His right hands were landing high on the head, but they still bothered Tyson. And he fought well inside, too."

Buster Douglas fought one great fight in his career.

For his loss to the mediocrity Holyfield, Douglas did not train a single day.
None of that was to Holyfield's credit. Douglas' shrunken lower legs for the Holyfield fight showed he had done no running at all. His weight was HOW MANY pounds heavier than for his fight with Tyson?

Why did that happen?

Because he could not take the psychological strain of being expected to be a winner and a champion.

But the circumstances for his fight against Tyson happened to come out just right for him to be a winner psychologically. Several trainers pointed out to me the proof of that was when Douglas was knocked down by Tyson after winning every round up to that point.

As he sat on the canvas Douglas angrily hit his glove down against the canvas in a show of disgust that he had allowed that to happen. To these trainers that illustrated that he had a total winner's state of mind for that fight.

And of course he was facing a Tyson who had been destroyed as a championship athlete by the powerful psychiatric drugs he had taken, combined with the fact that having left his legal manager Bill Cayton to go over to the sicko Don King, Tyson now had a "corner" consisting of clowns who were his buddies he watched television with, who had zero qualifications to be in any fighter's corner.

And some guys in this forum want this guy out of here? I don't get it?!?!?!