BoxRec

3 guys I always used to read about as a kid: Tony Zale, Ken Overlin and Marcel Cerdan

These days these guys don't seem to get a look in when considering the great MW champions.

Where do these guys rank in the pantheon of 160 greats?

Who were their best wins...

Zale, by all accounts was already on the wane when he met Graziano. He's often reported to be one of the greatest body punchers of all-time.

Cerdan seems to be generally ignored by boxing fans these days.

Anyone have any opinions or memories to share on these 3 greats?

Oddly I ordered the Graziano, Turpin and La Motta v Cerdan fights last week. I have been told that Zale v Graziano I and II isn't available, which is annoying.

I think that Cerdan was a little over protected, to put it kindly, it's a shame he didn't get his career up and running sooner against the quality of the division in the mid to late 40's. His record is a bit kind to him.

I love watching these guys fight, it was the bonus of that Boxers Magaxine series which gave away free videos that I got to see them at an early age, along with Walcott, Robinson, Tunney etc.

Watched the Zale v Graziano fights on ESPN recently, amazing.

Ken Overlin is definitely overlooked.

But anyone who doesn't know Zale or Cerdan doesn't know what boxing is.

The confusion indicated here by the lumping of them together with Overlin is a sad indication of the results of years of Larry Merchant, Bert Sugar, Thomas Hauser, Howard Cosell, ABC TV and Sports Illustrated supplying the sheep their boxing "knowledge."

granberry wrote:Ken Overlin is definitely overlooked.

But anyone who doesn't know Zale or Cerdan doesn't know what boxing is.

The confusion indicated here by the lumping of them together with Overlin is a sad indication of the results of years of Larry Merchant, Bert Sugar, Thomas Hauser, Howard Cosell, ABC TV and Sports Illustrated supplying the sheep their boxing "knowledge."

They are known, Gran, but Zale and Cerdan rarely seem to get a mention in MW debates. 20 years ago these 2 guys were usually listed as 2 of the greatest ever MW champions, these days though they are known they are often dismissed.

Overlin is different. I thought it worth mentioning him though as he is all but forgotten.

Growing up, Tony Zale's name was one you heard very frequently in the annals of boxing. He was always getting mentioned in the local papers, and his trilogy with Graziano has for sometime, quite rightly been viewed as perhaps the greatest in boxing history.

Cerdan may be a bit underrated, particularly with Americans, who like bringing up his loss to LaMotta. And Overlin is definitely underrated. He was an outstanding boxer with a solid chin who would have beaten alot of top fighters.

i love tony zales fighting

ive only seen the last of the graziano-zale trilogy but that right to body, left to the head combination was awesome!!

hes one of my favorite fighters. im curious to know where you could purchase some footage of the man of steel

In my opinion, one of the most underrated middleweight champions was Freddie Steele. Take a look at his record.

Ezzard wrote:

granberry wrote:Ken Overlin is definitely overlooked.

But anyone who doesn't know Zale or Cerdan doesn't know what boxing is.

The confusion indicated here by the lumping of them together with Overlin is a sad indication of the results of years of Larry Merchant, Bert Sugar, Thomas Hauser, Howard Cosell, ABC TV and Sports Illustrated supplying the sheep their boxing "knowledge."

They are known, Gran, but Zale and Cerdan rarely seem to get a mention in MW debates. 20 years ago these 2 guys were usually listed as 2 of the greatest ever MW champions, these days though they are known they are often dismissed.

Overlin is different. I thought it worth mentioning him though as he is all but forgotten.

Cerdan never gets a mention.

Cerdan is underrated by some people, (though some people seem to hold him in high regard.) I think part of it that people aren't familiar with many of the European fighters that he fought like Clyde Dennoit and Dick Turpin. He also beat Holman Williams, who wasn't at his best but still had something left when Cerdan beat him. Cerdan also beat Georgie Abrams, who was an underrated fighter. It's too bad that Cerdan-LaMotta II never happned.

You used to hear a lot more about Zale than you do nowadays. Don't know why that is.

You don't hear a lot about Overlin. Obviously he wasn't as good as Cerdan or Zale but he was pretty good. He seemed to be around the same level as guys like Fred Apostoli, Al Hostak,Teddy Yarosz, and Freddie Steele that fought around that time.

When you weigh how good he was with how much positive attention that he gets, Freddie Steele might be more underrated than any of these guys. Only 5 losses in 142 fights. The losses included a 4 round decision, a 6 round decision early in his career.

He knocked out Overlin as well as Gus Lesnevich, and won on points against Vince Dundee. He was stopped by Fred Apostoli twice. Overall, that is a pretty good career.

Apostoli didn't stop Steele twice. The only loss to Apostoli came in 1938, when Steele fractured his breast bone. That injury ultimately ended Steele's career later that year, although he made a failed comeback in 1941. Three of his five losses came in 1938 and 1941 when and after he suffered that breastbone injury.

Steele had whipped Apostoli in 1935 or '36 by KO or TKO if I recall correctly - in Apostoli's hometown of San Francisco! And he didn't just outpoint Dundee. Shortly after beating Apostoli, he stopped Dundee with a brutal three-round TKO that left Dundee hospitalized with three jaw fractures.

Steele started fighting pro as an adolescent. He was truly a boxing prodigy.



Freddie Steele

That's right. Apostoli only stopped him once. Steele did beat Apostoli in 1935, (though to be fair to Apostoli it was very early in Apostoli's career). Steele really did have a good career.

Actually Steele stopped a very good Vince Dundee in the 3rd. The win over Apostoli was in only the latter's 7th pro bout, so I didn't mention that in the other thread as one one of Steele's big accomplishments. Talk about going head first into the deep end of the pool though. Quite a testament to Apostoli's toughness that he lasted into the 10th against Steele.

Look's like today we had more mentions of Freddie Steele than ever before, so I declare today May 22 to officially be "Freddie Steele Day" at BoxRec.

Seamus wrote:. . .I declare today May 22 to officially be "Freddie Steele Day" at BoxRec.

He deserves it!

Seamus wrote:Growing up, Tony Zale's name was one you heard very frequently in the annals of boxing. He was always getting mentioned in the local papers, and his trilogy with Graziano has for sometime, quite rightly been viewed as perhaps the greatest in boxing history.

Cerdan may be a bit underrated, particularly with Americans, who like bringing up his loss to LaMotta. And Overlin is definitely underrated. He was an outstanding boxer with a solid chin who would have beaten alot of top fighters.

Seamus , we used to hear about Zale all the time here in Chicago when we were kids didnt we?
He was always a hero.
He was a real good guy and very active with the CYO boxing program.
He worked with alot of young fighters.
Everybody liked and respected Tony.
He was always accesible a real down to earth individual.

Expug

As I'm sure you know, Zale was from the East Side of Gary, St Hedwig's parish, but later moved to Chicago. He used to come by Davis Square and Cornell Park in the Back of the Yards alot after his career ended. He got his name in the sports pages alot long after his career ended.

Davis Square .
They had an outstanding boxing program for awhile back in the70s and early eighties .

Finally a few good words in support of Steele.....bravo!

Expug

Do you remember Ace Matula the boxing coach there ? I talked with him before when I worked out there around 74. At Cornell it was Pete Missing, who also had a barbershop at 47th-Western. Missing said he knew Ali.

There's a great book by a fantastic author, Barry Gifford, in which he recounts stroies about his father. His father was connected with the criminal fraternity and was also a friend of Tony Zale's... Makes interesting reading. Barry Gifford is a great writer.

Cerdan - LaMotta II NEVER needy to happen,
Cerdan's loss due to shoulder injury in the opening round is as clear as the day is long, the fact that Cerdan went to town basically one handed for 9 rounds, which is also clear as day in the video, proves the caliber and stuff he was made of, He beat Top Americans, Brits and Europeans many of them as good or near as good as one another.

Fleischer was going on about him since 1939 and if not for the war Marcel would have been in the U.S and World champion sooner!

Freddie Steele is a great, but should not get any jumps on McAvoy, who is ALWAYs overlooked.

If Cerdan would have won a rematch against LaMotta, he would be get a lot more respect than he does now. It's too bad that it wasn't to be.

Seamus wrote:Expug

Do you remember Ace Matula the boxing coach there ? I talked with him before when I worked out there around 74. At Cornell it was Pete Missing, who also had a barbershop at 47th-Western. Missing said he knew Ali.

I have never met those guys Seamus.
I never got to Davis Square ,but Ive trained with a few guys who were members of that club when they came to the old CYO gym to spar on some Saturdays.
I remember Johnny Collins trained there for awhile, I think maybe Mike Landini did too .I could be wrong about that.Lots of tough amateurs and a bunch of Irish kids.
Its been a long time.
This would have been around 79.
I think Tony Arvia coached a bit there as did a guy by the name of Galloway .
When you were working out there in 74 , boxing wasnt quite on my radar yet.

Marcel Cerdan; greatest European MW champion of all time, never quite gets the props he deserved but it is warranted considering he didnt fight that many top flight contenders, especially American ones, and his early death cut short what might have been a promising career.

Tiger Flowers

Bob Fitzsimmons; no he wasn't MW champion for that very long, nor did he defend it all that often, but for his time there was no greater MW in the world PERIOD! Throw in his mixed bouts against the best heavies and light heavies in the world as well during his tenture as MW champion, you have one of the greatest P4P fighters of all time.

glad to see this stuff bringing some deservedly excellent fighters back into recognition. especially georgie abrams. (spider webb is rarely talked about these days)