BoxRec

just something i was thinking about today while in the back of an ambulance with a patient...oops...

everyone seems to be harping on about how haye will fare when a real heavyweight clocks him on the whiskers? and its a fair question, but one that there is not really an answer too.

i would rather be hit by a large object travelling slow (a bowling ball thrown at me !!) than a small object travelling fast (a bullet !!)... i know that this is an over exaggeration from both ends of the spectrum but its true. haye may now be any worse off when he gets clocked by a heavyweight..as the punch will be coming slower... (will it?) ...

and recently the other way round, we saw a weight drained fella (byrd) who is used to taking world class heavyweight punches flush and hardly buckling, suddenly being put on silly street by an average light heavyweight. was that because byrd was weight drained or because the punch came faster? ...

after all, haye has been weight drained at cruiser (has he?) so therefore will his body be able to absorb a heavyweight shot better than when he was a 'boiled' cruiser?

lots of questions i know, but a reasonable debate never the less.

Ask Glenn McCrory he was hit by Lennox Lewis and he was a big cruiserweight going up to heavyweight who spent a lot of time sparring with Tyson.

You can develop every other part of the body but you cannot put muscles on a chin.

Whilst I appreciate your input into this discussion on the mechanics of punching and punch power BC, dont you think you could make a more telling contribution on some of the other popular threads of the last few days?..

As for the topic itself, I always found it was the punches that you dont see that hurt the most.

I would rather bit hit by a slow limbed, predicatable plodder than a lighter hitting, but razor sharp and accurate boxer.

It's Physics Weight and Speed. "Power equals weight times speed" the power of your punch depends on the weight behind your hand and how fast you can get them moving.

Punches you get hurt by are def the ones you don't see as your chin is often relaxed and you don't have the opportunity to tense it.
Haye's chin is vunerable at cruiserweight, problem his he gets to people before they get to him!

Punchers are born not made. Look at Nigel Benn, Thomas Hearns John Mugabi these guy could take you out with one punch. 99% of heavyweights can punch this is due to thier size.

Emmanuel Steward says that you can make a puncher but Thomas Hearns and Milton McCrory were the same height and build but McCrory could not punch the skin off a rice pudding.

Also a weel known fact in boxing is that a good big one will beat a good small one as stated by boxingchat.

Another case studay was the great Bob Foster awsome and dutable at Light Heavy but nothing at heavyweight and the heavyweights in those days were around the 15st mark not monsters like today.

dapug wrote:Punchers are born not made. Look at Nigel Benn, Thomas Hearns John Mugabi these guy could take you out with one punch. 99% of heavyweights can punch this is due to thier size.

Emmanuel Steward says that you can make a puncher but Thomas Hearns and Milton McCrory were the same height and build but McCrory could not punch the skin off a rice pudding.

Also a weel known fact in boxing is that a good big one will beat a good small one as stated by boxingchat.

Another case studay was the great Bob Foster awsome and dutable at Light Heavy but nothing at heavyweight and the heavyweights in those days were around the 15st mark not monsters like today.

Yeah, those heavyweights were also Joe Frazier and Muhammad Ali! Foster proved he was the greatest light-heavy of all-time and then jumped up twice to the heavyweight division. First time, straight off the bat, he takes on an undefeated Frazier - second time he fights Ali. Hardly a case study to compare with Haye's current situation, is it? Sure, the heavyweights are bigger nowadays, but they're also the worst crop of heavyweights for a long, long time. Guys like Frazier, Ali - shit, Lyle, Norton and Shavers, too - would have ripped right through this division right now. Haye's up against it, but he has one thing going in his favour - he's more Foster than Klitschko is Ali or Peter is Frazier.

Interesting about Thomas Hearns, no doubt one of the best punchers, but as an amatuer he only had 11 KO's in 147 wins, so was it just an adjustment in his style that turned him into such a great puncher?

Probably the hardest puncher in my time was Julian Jackson, he made people's bodys do silly things when he hit them, i don't think i've seen a guy knock boxers out so hard, they were usually out before they hit the ground. Look at his KO's of Norris, Graham, Drayton and a host of others.

And now both his sons box, and have qualified for the Olympics.

Old bones Ian wrote:Interesting about Thomas Hearns, no doubt one of the best punchers, but as an amatuer he only had 11 KO's in 147 wins, so was it just an adjustment in his style that turned him into such a great puncher?

Probably the hardest puncher in my time was Julian Jackson, he made people's bodys do silly things when he hit them, i don't think i've seen a guy knock boxers out so hard, they were usually out before they hit the ground. Look at his KO's of Norris, Graham, Drayton and a host of others.

And now both his sons box, and have qualified for the Olympics.

Really? Who are they representing, the Virgin Islands? Are they good?

boxingchat wrote:Ask Glenn McCrory he was hit by Lennox Lewis and he was a big cruiserweight going up to heavyweight who spent a lot of time sparring with Tyson.

You can develop every other part of the body but you cannot put muscles on a chin.

mccrory was a 13st8 cruiserweight who entered the ring at less than 14 and a half on fight nite, haye is naturally thicker spread and is well above 15 on fight nite.

I think you can either punch or you can't.

I agree speed & power are very important - but i would also add that technique is more so.

I think most of us have sparred / fought at some level and i for one have messed around with some big, far bigger and muscular opponents and took what they had, yet could really feel the power of a much smaller opponent simply due to their punching technique.

Obviously a bullet is more dangerous than a bowling ball (if we assume impact with, say, an outer thigh), but the ball will carry far greater mass. If the bullet maintained its properties, yet wasn't small enough to penetrate skin and bone, it would force into you until your body regained a grounding, after soaking up its momentum.

Hands don't vary in size by a massive factor, so regardless of speed, I'd rather let a lightweight hit me than a heavy. Physical size is the basis for power; speed and weight distibution are the multipliers.

"i would rather be hit by a large object travelling slow (a bowling ball thrown at me !!) than a small object travelling fast (a bullet !!)"

I remember Roy Jones' coach Merk saying (virtually) this exact phrase in the build-up to the Ruiz fight. Would you rather someone throw a bowling ball or a pool ball at you?

Speaking from experience , I've found that being hit by a fast thrown pool ball is better than a being battered by a glass ashtray being slowly belted around my head.
This wasn't a scientific experiment, but the results speak for themselves.
The pool ball caused a comedy lump on my head , the ashtray alot of bigger lumps on the back of my head.

Old bones Ian wrote:Speaking from experience , I've found that being hit by a fast thrown pool ball is better than a being battered by a glass ashtray being slowly belted around my head.
This wasn't a scientific experiment, but the results speak for themselves.
The pool ball caused a comedy lump on my head , the ashtray alot of bigger lumps on the back of my head.

i had a similar experience, a drawer full of books and documents did a lot less damage than an empty coffee mug.

but hey, i divorced the bitch !!

I think another factor to take into account is accuracy. When it comes to raw power i think Samuel Peter for instance would rate much higher than Wlad Klitchsko but his speed and accuracy more than makes up for this.

In reply to one of the original questions i think Haye will would do better against lower level HWs than higher level CWs (or LHs, Mock) due do his defensive speed advantage meaning he'll take very little flush. His tendency to give ground easily concerns me as he could get bulled to the ropes a teed off on & i think it will only take one flush HW punch...

I also think tendon strength/tightness (hard to describe what I mean) has something to do with it. I think we discussed this in a previous thread about Calzaghe and weights.

Maybe reach/distance to target as well so that it reaches maximum velocity.

Here's what Arguello had to say about being a tactition or a puncher.

ARGUELLO: Actually punching is a mistake; a heavy hitter will cut you with one shot. I believe more in precision, when you have the capability, like when you see a mosquito fly and you're able to hit it, you're able to hit it with a couple of short sharp shots… it’s a beautiful thing.

I’d take precision any day over power; as far as being tactical you know you have to see what’s going on in there and also understand that for every punch that you or your opponent throws there’s always a counter shot or two which you have to be ready to fire or defend. I was good at doing both and so that’s where the tactical part comes into play. Some nights it was about being tactical, other nights it was about looking for shots and setting up the big shots with combos.

For the delivery and getting hit is down to the relationship of where the arse is in line with the Oral cavity

Arguello's punches were like laser-guided missiles. They always found the spot. His accuracy was amazing.

Power does equal weight x speed... but technique also playes a HUGE role (e.g. Ali never being the biggest puncher).

However, I believe there is an optimum weight/speed ratio which can generate the power. Its not necessarily the lighter you are the more powerful, cause you are faster.... equally its not the heavier you are, the more powerful, cause you are bigger (I don't think Tyson could hit as hard at 17 stone as he did at 15 1/2 stone).... you've got to find a "happy medium".

I know this is a daft scenerio - but I am punching these punching machines much harder now I am lighter than when I was about 2 stone above my old fighting weight.

Due to genetics, it is more likely the natural 18 stones are more likely to be at Happy Medium, then if Haye went up to that weight... However, will Haye have his happy medium at 16 1/2 stone, which he claims is his natural weight.... well time will tell... I think yes though.

boxingchat wrote: You can develop every other part of the body but you cannot put muscles on a chin.

Actually you can, build a 21 inch musclular neck, treetrunk legs, a lower back thicker and stronger than a T Rex and you'll laugh at punchers. Most boxers don't know how to train these bodyparts to be strong

Anyway weight of punch is complex - if you arm punch only the weight of your arm is behind the punch, so if your 300lbs of muscle your still only using the 20lb that is in your arm. If your 200lbs and you use every ounce of your bodyweight in the punch, ie a powerpuncher/bodypuncher, then you have 200lbs behind your punch. So a 200lber can put more weight behind his punch than a 300lber.

If the Head isnt where it should be in regards to your arse, nothing is in balance. Gravity takes over, Trouble