BoxRec

Who was the best fighter (Including today) ever produced by Scotland?

Cap

In mosts eyes I think it will be a toss-up between Ken Buchanan and Jim Watt

Ken Buchanan

http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?hu ... &cat=boxer

Jim Watt

http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?hu ... &cat=boxer

IMO Bennie Lynch stands alone

Coco wrote:IMO Bennie Lynch stands alone

Oh r and him

Bennie Lynch

http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?hu ... &cat=boxer

Cap wrote:Who was the best fighter (Including today) ever produced by Scotland?

Cap

Some oldtimers say Alex Lafferty - http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?hu ... &cat=boxer his record is far from complete on here

I'm not familiar with the fella and his record certainly does not make him stand out
Any more info?

So far I have found 117 fights for him - won 99. Scottish Champion beating Tancy Lee, lost to Digger Stanley for the British title over 20 rounds in 1912, but Stanley was no slouch..

Killed in action in World War 1 (1918) - 29 years old. Sometimes known as Alec or Alick as well.

Benny Lynch for me, brilliant fighter, there is an excellent book on him if you ever get the chance read it!

Emerson - have you ever given me that back yet?

Dick McTaggart has got to be their greatest amatuer 1 olympic gold in 1956 and a bronze in 1960.
5 times ABA champ.

1. Benny Lynch
2. Ken Buchanan
The rest miles behind, these two are all-time greats

you would be showing a great level of disrespect if you attended an Ex-boxer assoc meeting and said the rest are miles behind, Buchanan & Lynch, Scotland produced some of the greatest fighters in history and believe me there were more than a handfull... I know first hand that Ken Buchanan got the shit kicked out of him by a Coatbridge (a famous Scottish getto/hard town), by one of it's street lads and had a few other altercations while Ken lived there with his one time Gal.

I'll tell you straight the same could never be said for some of Scotland's other greats. In my reasearch and understanding they are as follows...

Benny Lynch
Bert Gilroy
Alex Lafferty
Tommy Milligan
Jackie Paterson
Ken Buchanan
Walter McGowan
Jake Kilrain (Scot's WW)
Peter Keenan
Jim Brady
Jim Kenny
Cowboy McCormack
Chic Calderwood
Dan McGoldrick
Ken Shaw
Jim Watt
Johnny McGrory (who might still be alive, around 90 yrs.)

and many more I'm not thinking about or don't 'fully' know about, I'll give you a little example referee Henderson (at one time Britain's leading Referee), the same man who raised Turpins hand, among many others, as World Champion, stated of Bushman Dempster (a fighter we know little about), that during the early mid-30s he (Dempster) was the Hardest, Toughest MW that Scotland had produced!

I can never definatively say 'outright' who the greatest was or is, there are just so many unknown/untold stories that by merely spitting out names of fighters who were given the opportunity to achieve greatness, Does Not Always Mean the Greatest.

Scotland has had many, many great fighters and to place Ken Buchanan as the 2cd best is NOT accurate Scottish Boxing History, the 10 I have hi-lighted are among & probably Scotland's greatest, however I am always open to fighters & circumstances I don't know about, another example, England - Len Johnson & Jack 'Cast Iron' Casey.

see, I just realised I forgot Tancy Lee & Elky Clarke,

another great example Nat Fleischer (founder of Ring magazine) had Elky Clarke listed as a Top 10 ALL-TIME Great flyweight right up to the late 60s... few ever speak of Elky- see what I mean!!!

Ken Buchanan no doubt. Then Begbie....

jimglen wrote:you would be showing a great level of disrespect if you attended an Ex-boxer assoc meeting and said the rest are miles behind, Buchanan & Lynch, Scotland produced some of the greatest fighters in history and believe me there were more than a handfull... I know first hand that Ken Buchanan got the shit kicked out of him by a Coatbridge (a famous Scottish getto/hard town), by one of it's street lads and had a few other altercations while Ken lived there with his one time Gal.

I'll tell you straight the same could never be said for some of Scotland's other greats. In my reasearch and understanding they are as follows...

Benny Lynch
Bert Gilroy
Alex Lafferty
Tommy Milligan
Jackie Paterson
Ken Buchanan
Walter McGowan
Jake Kilrain (Scot's WW)
Peter Keenan
Jim Brady
Jim Kenny
Cowboy McCormack
Chic Calderwood
Dan McGoldrick
Ken Shaw
Jim Watt
Johnny McGrory (who might still be alive, around 90 yrs.)

and many more I'm not thinking about or don't 'fully' know about, I'll give you a little example referee Henderson (at one time Britain's leading Referee), the same man who raised Turpins hand, among many others, as World Champion, stated of Bushman Dempster (a fighter we know little about), that during the early mid-30s he (Dempster) was the Hardest, Toughest MW that Scotland had produced!

I can never definatively say 'outright' who the greatest was or is, there are just so many unknown/untold stories that by merely spitting out names of fighters who were given the opportunity to achieve greatness, Does Not Always Mean the Greatest.

Scotland has had many, many great fighters and to place Ken Buchanan as the 2cd best is NOT accurate Scottish Boxing History, the 10 I have hi-lighted are among & probably Scotland's greatest, however I am always open to fighters & circumstances I don't know about, another example, England - Len Johnson & Jack 'Cast Iron' Casey.

Gilroy above Buchanan????

Buchanan won and defended a world title overseas. Bert won a Scottish title.

You are the one who would be laughed out of an ex-boxers association.

Why don't you declare an interest prior to posting this sort of tosh?

once again Collins you go for me, Why not Referee Eugene Henderson or Nat Fleischer the Ring founder & chief who made the recorded statements...

Why do you insist on singling out Gilroy & not recognise the other many, many greats I cite, including English greats, Roderick, Boon, Johnson, Casey, Sadd for example. We know you don't like Gilroy, we also know it's not Gilroy you dislike but rather you are one of those individuals that HATE anything that should cause shame, question or fear on anything English or British or the Home town favorite, We Can Never Compete With That Collins - so I contest you win, the home town baised decision!

I, like a lot of other posters here love boxing & great fighters irrespective where they come from because we love the sport & enjoy great fighters, for me J J Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Lloyd Marshall are the greatest...were they, are they the absolute best (?), Yes & No, but the Truth is they were/ARE Greats as are McAvoy, Gilroy, Roderick, Boon, Casey, Greg Haugen, Jeremy Williams, & Miguel Cotto for example, I am one of those researchers that desire to give fighters there rightfull place & credit and I'll tell you once again ACHIEVEMENTS mean shit and certainly Don't spell or equate Absolute greatness.

last example American fighters have been WRONGLY placed as the ultimate Top Fighters over Brit's & Euro fighters over the years - generally this is accurate, BUT Not the Absolute reality or History... You'd think you would applaud that in me Collins and others like me for the sake of the sport and it's GREAT fighting men, but No, No you can't bring yourself to do that.

I have always been an honest & polite participant to BoxRec and a run through most of my posts demonstrates a great effort to shine some light on some of these forgotten stars, I'm sorry thats not enough for you... God knows it's the least that can be done for some of them!

Pick on the Reports and the great voices that stated & recorded them!

Jim Glen, for Boxings great men.

Old bones Ian wrote:Dick McTaggart has got to be their greatest amatuer 1 olympic gold in 1956 and a bronze in 1960.
5 times ABA champ.

Good shout.

My girlfriends granddad says thats his biggest boxing regret, he was down to box on a show in Weymouth and his opponent pulled out as did Dicks and the organizers asked him to fight Dick as an exhibition and he didn't do it since he was fresh back from the olympics and he would get battered, anyhow another local lad stepped in and easily beat Dick who was having an off night and he got all the coverage - 'Local lad beats Olympic champion!'

jimglen wrote:once again Collins you go for me, Why not Referee Eugene Henderson or Nat Fleischer the Ring founder & chief who made the recorded statements...

Why do you insist on singling out Gilroy & not recognise the other many, many greats I cite, including English greats, Roderick, Boon, Johnson, Casey, Sadd for example. We know you don't like Gilroy, we also know it's not Gilroy you dislike but rather you are one of those individuals that HATE anything that should cause shame, question or fear on anything English or British or the Home town favorite, We Can Never Compete With That Collins - so I contest you win, the home town baised decision!

I, like a lot of other posters here love boxing & great fighters irrespective where they come from because we love the sport & enjoy great fighters, for me J J Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Lloyd Marshall are the greatest...were they, are they the absolute best (?), Yes & No, but the Truth is they were/ARE Greats as are McAvoy, Gilroy, Roderick, Boon, Casey, Greg Haugen, Jeremy Williams, & Miguel Cotto for example, I am one of those researchers that desire to give fighters there rightfull place & credit and I'll tell you once again ACHIEVEMENTS mean shit and certainly Don't spell or equate Absolute greatness.

last example American fighters have been WRONGLY placed as the ultimate Top Fighters over Brit's & Euro fighters over the years - generally this is accurate, BUT Not the Absolute reality or History... You'd think you would applaud that in me Collins and others like me for the sake of the sport and it's GREAT fighting men, but No, No you can't bring yourself to do that.

I have always been an honest & polite participant to BoxRec and a run through most of my posts demonstrates a great effort to shine some light on some of these forgotten stars, I'm sorry thats not enough for you... God knows it's the least that can be done for some of them!

Pick on the Reports and the great voices that stated & recorded them!

Jim Glen, for Boxings great men.

If you can post the article(s) where Eugene Henderson or Nat Fleischer rate Gilroy over Buchanan, I'd be very interested to see them.

I suggest they only exist in your own mind...

Collins2000, for stopping this revisionist rot

jimglen wrote:I'll tell you once again ACHIEVEMENTS mean shit and certainly Don't spell or equate Absolute greatness.

This is what's causing such a severe gulf in perspectives - it's not so much the names, it's the methodology. Clearly people have different concepts of what constitutes greatness.
Just my opinion, but I have to completely disagree with jimglen's statement above - achievements for me mean everything as they are the only concrete barometers, everything else is opinion and speculation. We all know could have beens and should have beens, and the fact they're talked about in those terms indicates exactly why they shouldn't be termed greats.
Jim, I also have to take issue with you using Buchanan's claimed loss in a streetfight in Coatbridge as in any way indicative of his standing as a boxer - I'm sure Iran Barkley would have ripped Sugar Ray Leonard's head off in a street fight, but we all know who the better boxer was. You clearly know your boxing but such a statement undermines your credibility.

Henderson quote - Bushman Dempster, book Box On
Fleischer's quote Elky Clarke's alltime rating - the Ring record book 1959, and listed in other years I'm sure, nothing to do with Gilroy as the posts clearly read... Collins always finds away to belittle and avoid what was said.

acheivements mean they were given/allowed/afforded the chance to win titles, deserved or not, = great fighter & or acheivement based, true great for me (and many others) = Head to Head battles, prime 4 prime & peak 4 peak, Who beats Who - we discuss & dispute it all the time but Collins never will when it comes to Gilroy...

the street fight incident was simply to point out the fact that real tough guys don't often lose, NOT all boxers are hardmen, I know, But MOST are, and among Boxing's great Most of the elite were, MOST and they didn't lose street fights typically, that's all.

Look at ALL these Scot's greats, dear God is it a crime that there are more than Benny & Kenny, and that there are 'others' yet still not mentioned or forgotten. Jeez!

jimglen wrote:Henderson quote - Bushman Dempster, book Box On
Fleischer's quote Elky Clarke's alltime rating - the Ring record book 1959, and listed in other years I'm sure, nothing to do with Gilroy as the posts clearly read... Collins always finds away to belittle and avoid what was said.

acheivements mean they were given/allowed/afforded the chance to win titles, deserved or not, = great fighter & or acheivement based, true great for me (and many others) = Head to Head battles, prime 4 prime & peak 4 peak, Who beats Who - we discuss & dispute it all the time but Collins never will when it comes to Gilroy...

the street fight incident was simply to point out the fact that real tough guys don't often lose, NOT all boxers are hardmen, I know, But MOST are, and among Boxing's great Most of the elite were, MOST and they didn't lose street fights typically, that's all.

Look at ALL these Scot's greats, dear God is it a crime that there are more than Benny & Kenny, and that there are 'others' yet still not mentioned or forgotten. Jeez!

So, Jim, when I questioned rating Buchanan over Gilroy, why did you mention Henderson and Fleisher if neither have EVER made a comment on it?

More obfuscation?

And what has street fighting got to do with world championship boxing?

I didn't Collins as you well know, I made a 2cd post about 'other' Scot's greats, as follows - see, I just realised I forgot Tancy Lee & Elky Clarke,

Listing Scottish greats as the post clearly states and as that is what the thread is about Sir, again and well you know it... I listed about 15 or so of them...

Cheerio!

jimglen wrote:I didn't Collins as you well know, I made a 2cd post about 'other' Scot's greats, as follows - see, I just realised I forgot Tancy Lee & Elky Clarke,

Listing Scottish greats as the post clearly states and as that is what the thread is about Sir, again and well you know it... I listed about 15 or so of them...

Cheerio!

Really, Jim? So why did you mention Henderson and Fleischer?

Your post seems very confused, as usual. Did you have a little nip or two before posting, again?

Here's my 2 posts, made before you entered the thread Collins
- Henderson & Fleischer's comments are directed at the 2 fighters stated, namely Dempster & Clarke... this is a good list of Scot's great and for those interested in some (not necessarily all) of Scotland's fine fighters...

Sorry your only interest in Boxrec is childish trouble seeking, always noising up & belittling posters - Collins should be BANNED, maybe I'll see you around sometime Sir


My 2 original posts:
you would be showing a great level of disrespect if you attended an Ex-boxer assoc meeting and said the rest are miles behind, Buchanan & Lynch, Scotland produced some of the greatest fighters in history and believe me there were more than a handfull... I know first hand that Ken Buchanan got the shit kicked out of him by a Coatbridge (a famous Scottish getto/hard town), by one of it's street lads and had a few other altercations while Ken lived there with his one time Gal.

I'll tell you straight the same could never be said for some of Scotland's other greats. In my reasearch and understanding they are as follows...

Benny Lynch
Bert Gilroy
Alex Lafferty
Tommy Milligan
Jackie Paterson
Ken Buchanan
Walter McGowan
Jake Kilrain (Scot's WW)
Peter Keenan
Jim Brady
Jim Kenny
Cowboy McCormack
Chic Calderwood
Dan McGoldrick
Ken Shaw
Jim Watt
Johnny McGrory (who might still be alive, around 90 yrs.)

and many more I'm not thinking about or don't 'fully' know about, I'll give you a little example referee Henderson (at one time Britain's leading Referee), the same man who raised Turpins hand, among many others, as World Champion, stated of Bushman Dempster (a fighter we know little about), that during the early mid-30s he (Dempster) was the Hardest, Toughest MW that Scotland had produced!

I can never definatively say 'outright' who the greatest was or is, there are just so many unknown/untold stories that by merely spitting out names of fighters who were given the opportunity to achieve greatness, Does Not Always Mean the Greatest.

Scotland has had many, many great fighters and to place Ken Buchanan as the 2cd best is NOT accurate Scottish Boxing History, the 10 I have hi-lighted are among & probably Scotland's greatest, however I am always open to fighters & circumstances I don't know about, another example, England - Len Johnson & Jack 'Cast Iron' Casey.


see, I just realised I forgot Tancy Lee & Elky Clarke,

another great example Nat Fleischer (founder of Ring magazine) had Elky Clarke listed as a Top 10 ALL-TIME Great flyweight right up to the late 60s... few ever speak of Elky- see what I mean!!!

jimglen wrote:
Sorry your only interest in Boxrec is childish trouble seeking, always noising up & belittling posters - Collins should be BANNED, maybe I'll see you around sometime Sir

Jim, why do you always start crying when anyone questions your outlandish claims for your grandpa?