BoxRec

According to Muhammad Ali, D'Amato gave him important advice before Ali departed for Zaire to fight Foreman in the famed Rumble in the Jungle fight. D'Amato allegedly said "I have only once piece of advice for you. You must hurt Foreman with your first punch. Foreman has the psychology of a bully. If you hurt him early, it will destroy his mind. Whatever you do, have bad intentions behind your first punch."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cus_D'Amato

Little did Cus know the sage advice he gave to Muhammad Ali would be used again and again against his prized pupil, Mike Tyson...

Ah. This is good stuff. How did you come across it? Doesn't matter. It rings true again and again.

zslayton wrote:Ah. This is good stuff. How did you come across it? Doesn't matter. It rings true again and again.

That's amazing advice that Cus gave him even if it oversimplifies things a bit...I was watching the first round again...Ali runs to the middle of the ring, throws right hand leads that leave him vulnerable to show George how fast he is and then puts him in a head lock for good measure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyR7n3A5abo

P.S. I wish Ali didn't have the Parkinson's Syndrom for a host of reasons but he would be such a great resevoir of information with all the history he has witnessed...

Here's more of Ali and Cus:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrWlHDYDkjg

Not another Mike Tyson topic.

Big Bad John wrote:Not another Mike Tyson topic.

This is a Cus D'Amato topic...

Did you see the second link?

Toward the end he remarks about how much punishment Ali took while sparring and how he didn't think it was wise...He was prescient, again...

Why isn't it "Muhammad Ali and the Irony of Cus D'amato," then? Two continuing problems of this section are focusing too heavily on the heavyweight division and too many Mike Tyson topics.

Big Bad John wrote:Why isn't it "Muhammad Ali and the Irony of Cus D'amato," then? Two continuing problems of this section are focusing too heavily on the heavyweight division and too many Mike Tyson topics.

Because Cus told Muhammad Ali if he shows Foreman he's not afraid of him Foreman will fold...IMHO, when Holy, Buster, and Lenox showed Tyson he wasn't afraid of him Tyson folded...Cus' most prized pupil was the victim of Cus' advice...

Can I start Sugar Ray Leonard topics and Oscar DeLaHoya topics... They are my favorite fighters, along with Ali...

Cus did a shitty job with Tyson in many ways.

Care to elaborate?

Big Bad John wrote:Cus did a shitty job with Tyson in many ways.

If he taught him how to be a man as well as a boxer he might have been better at both... Tyson ruined his life in every way imaginable...

big bad john, after the thread that 'exposed' you, you got a lot of guts to show your head in threads acting like a troll..

I don't agree, really. Foreman didn't react to Ali the way Tyson reacted to Douglas and Holyfield. Foreman's reaction to Ali's right hands was actually quite good, he went after Ali and won the second half of the round. Tyson, once he started getting consistently hit by Douglas and Holyfield, looked like a deer in the headlights.

I Feel Fine wrote:I don't agree, really. Foreman didn't react to Ali the way Tyson reacted to Douglas and Holyfield. Foreman's reaction to Ali's right hands was actually quite good, he went after Ali and won the second half of the round. Tyson, once he started getting consistently hit by Douglas and Holyfield, looked like a deer in the headlights.

No, Foreman isn't a quitter but Ali definitely got in his head ...Even Foreman admits it...But I would never compare his heart with Tyson...Not after the Lyle fight...

I am paraphrasing Foreman but he said after Ali kept telling him he didn't hit very hard he started to believe it...

observer1 wrote:big bad john, after the thread that 'exposed' you, you got a lot of guts to show your head in threads acting like a troll..

How was he exposed?

He seems to be a walking boxing encylopedia...

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:

I Feel Fine wrote:I don't agree, really. Foreman didn't react to Ali the way Tyson reacted to Douglas and Holyfield. Foreman's reaction to Ali's right hands was actually quite good, he went after Ali and won the second half of the round. Tyson, once he started getting consistently hit by Douglas and Holyfield, looked like a deer in the headlights.

No, Foreman isn't a quitter but Ali definitely got in his head ...Even Foreman admits it...But I would never compare his heart with Tyson...Not after the Lyle fight...

I am paraphrasing Foreman but he said after Ali kept telling him he didn't hit very hard he started to believe it...

Right, I think that's a better way of saying it. I don't think its fair to compare Foreman's reaction to Tyson's reaction, but I think it could be said that Ali by throwing the big rights early established that he was going to be in the fight and that it wasn't going to be the Foreman massacre that everyone expected. And Ali certainly got into Foreman's head.

I Feel Fine wrote:

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:

I Feel Fine wrote:I don't agree, really. Foreman didn't react to Ali the way Tyson reacted to Douglas and Holyfield. Foreman's reaction to Ali's right hands was actually quite good, he went after Ali and won the second half of the round. Tyson, once he started getting consistently hit by Douglas and Holyfield, looked like a deer in the headlights.

No, Foreman isn't a quitter but Ali definitely got in his head ...Even Foreman admits it...But I would never compare his heart with Tyson...Not after the Lyle fight...

I am paraphrasing Foreman but he said after Ali kept telling him he didn't hit very hard he started to believe it...

Right, I think that's a better way of saying it. I don't think its fair to compare Foreman's reaction to Tyson's reaction, but I think it could be said that Ali by throwing the big rights early established that he was going to be in the fight and that it wasn't going to be the Foreman massacre that everyone expected. And Ali certainly got into Foreman's head.

You will appreciate this video...Go to the 1:15 mark... If Tyson, Cus' prized pupil heeded that admonition he would have been a better man and a better boxer...I'm referring to Tyson...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYg5eFvR ... re=related

Yeah, I've seen that before in "AKA Cassius Clay." And I agree.

You guys know boxing. I am in awe.

Yeah, I bet Foreman had never been hit before in his life since he was a boxer who sparred and trained for many years. He was just a bully. When Ali swung at him a few times in Zaire, he got scared and lost his composure. Same with Tyson, never been hit before until Douglas, then he fell apart. Liston, same thing, never been hit in his life until Ali stood up to him in Miami, then his whole life collapsed.

As we all know from reading boxing biographies, some "mean" boxers like Liston, Tyson, and Foreman go into the gym the first day, start intimidating everyone and never get hit until they finally run into a "good" guy like Ali who dismantles their psyche and then beats them up while we all cheer.

The circumstance around all of those fights probably had nothing to do with what happened. Liston was completely above board in his personal life and nothing suspicious would ever happen in one of his fights. He was so distraught about the loss to Ali that he even demanded and got a rematch. In the rematch, Ali really showed the bully what would happen when he messed with the wrong guy. Ali, for the only time in his whole career unleashed a vicious shot. That "punch" knocked Liston out in seconds. There was no doubt about the validity of either fight, Ali tamed the bully.

Foreman loved being in Zaire, even more than Ali. Foreman didn't want to leave the country and was enthusiastic about being there. Right. When Ali swung at him in the first and then headlocked him, he probably thought, "oh no, I'm in a fight. I'm just a bully so I need to find a place to lay down." The rest of the fight had little to do with Foreman's wild, looping, tense. swinging. It had nothing to do with Foreman not pacing himself, and it had nothing to do with Foreman fighting a man as big as himself who had better skills. It was just Foreman being taught the lesson of what happens to the bully.

And Tyson, the biggest bully really got taught a lesson in Tokyo. That Tyson had gotten rid of everyone who had trained him up to that point in life had nothing to do with the fight. That Tyson was unprepared, beset with personal problems, and his corner was incompetent had nothing to do with the fight. That Buster Douglas, a 6-4, 230 pound boxer with all of the skills prepared and fought the best fight of his career on a down night for Mike Tyson had nothing to do with the fight. No, Tyson just found that Buster was not afraid so he became afraid. Buster stood up to him so Tyson stopped fighting.

All of the "bad" men got beaten up. So concludes a boxrec. fairy tale. Now everyone can sleep well knowing that the "bad" guys always get exposed by the "good" guys. It just shows that a man can fight and be successful as an amateur, even win the Olympic gold, then the world title, but just be a bully waiting to be exposed. Maybe some of you experienced posters can help me to understand how Liston, Foreman, and Tyson reached the level they had reached before being "exposed as a bully" while fighting at the top level of boxing. I am just having a problem grasping the notion that everyone that all of them had fought previously was afraid of them.

John Galt wrote:You guys know boxing. I am in awe.

Yeah, I bet Foreman had never been hit before in his life since he was a boxer who sparred and trained for many years. He was just a bully. When Ali swung at him a few times in Zaire, he got scared and lost his composure. Same with Tyson, never been hit before until Douglas, then he fell apart. Liston, same thing, never been hit in his life until Ali stood up to him in Miami, then his whole life collapsed.

As we all know from reading boxing biographies, some "mean" boxers like Liston, Tyson, and Foreman go into the gym the first day, start intimidating everyone and never get hit until they finally run into a "good" guy like Ali who dismantles their psyche and then beats them up while we all cheer.

The circumstance around all of those fights probably had nothing to do with what happened. Liston was completely above board in his personal life and nothing suspicious would ever happen in one of his fights. He was so distraught about the loss to Ali that he even demanded and got a rematch. In the rematch, Ali really showed the bully what would happen when he messed with the wrong guy. Ali, for the only time in his whole career unleashed a vicious shot. That "punch" knocked Liston out in seconds. There was no doubt about the validity of either fight, Ali tamed the bully.

Foreman loved being in Zaire, even more than Ali. Foreman didn't want to leave the country and was enthusiastic about being there. Right. When Ali swung at him in the first and then headlocked him, he probably thought, "oh no, I'm in a fight. I'm just a bully so I need to find a place to lay down." The rest of the fight had little to do with Foreman's wild, looping, tense. swinging. It had nothing to do with Foreman not pacing himself, and it had nothing to do with Foreman fighting a man as big as himself who had better skills. It was just Foreman being taught the lesson of what happens to the bully.

And Tyson, the biggest bully really got taught a lesson in Tokyo. That Tyson had gotten rid of everyone who had trained him up to that point in life had nothing to do with the fight. That Tyson was unprepared, beset with personal problems, and his corner was incompetent had nothing to do with the fight. That Buster Douglas, a 6-4, 230 pound boxer with all of the skills prepared and fought the best fight of his career on a down night for Mike Tyson had nothing to do with the fight. No, Tyson just found that Buster was not afraid so he became afraid. Buster stood up to him so Tyson stopped fighting.

All of the "bad" men got beaten up. So concludes a boxrec. fairy tale. Now everyone can sleep well knowing that the "bad" guys always get exposed by the "good" guys. It just shows that a man can fight and be successful as an amateur, even win the Olympic gold, then the world title, but just be a bully waiting to be exposed. Maybe some of you experienced posters can help me to understand how Liston, Foreman, and Tyson reached the level they had reached before being "exposed as a bully" while fighting at the top level of boxing. I am just having a problem grasping the notion that everyone that all of them had fought previously was afraid of them.

You're boring.

BBJ,
It probably is boring to you. Is it difficult to understand ideas that you haven't read in the Hauser-Mailer collection?

No. It's boring to read a poor attempt at irony by a pseudo-intellectual like you.

I must agree with the sarcasm in Galt's post.

I think some times we boxing fan's over analyse fights
and fighters. Over simplify. Sometimes, a great many
a time...experts, historians and armchair know all's
look past the fact that to err is human and at the end
of the day fighters are not just numbers, of lb's,
inches and W's and L's. They are men.

Surrounding every great event, whether sporting or historical
circumstances abound that help define what happens.

It is never so simple as to say 'Hit the bully first'.

In regards to Cus and moulding Tyson as a 'man'...
lets look at it this way guys...a man stands alone,
we are influnced for better or worse by those in our
early lives, but how we act and what we do define
us as individuals.

Cus helpes support and raise Tyson like so many other's
he should not be condemned for how Tyson turned out
or be over praised because Jose Torres and FLoyd Patterson
became gentlemnen. These men are responsible for themselves.

And at the end of the day Tyson was a young boy lost,
thrown into a big wide world of sharks and gold....how would
any man handle those pressures at such an age...heck I only
stopped playing with my Gi-Joes when I was 22...

Just my opinions.

How many more Tyson sob stories can the internet take?

If a broken home means you're on a one way ticket to self-destruction then I'm surprised any of us are still standing...

It's an absolute joke.

Tyson was exposed (as Terry says) and was essentially just not as good as he first looked to be. It happens in sports and in life all the time.

For a time Don Curry was supposed to be the second coming. He got beat and was never the same again. If not for all the other stuff in Curry's life like his personality, the man he actually was, he'd have been the greatest WW ever...

Incidentally my step sister is in fat camp in the US with
Tyson's daughter. They are 'bunk' mates. Apparently
she is a funny lil character according to my step sis.

Tyson like all is just a man, who worked hard and did
things great enough that we are talking about him.

And he did against a top, big up and down fighter in Douglas.

'On that night' Douglas was moving well, his jab was nice and
he was motivated. Not to many men, would have been able to
beat him...regardless of where some one puts Douglas on their
respective ATG list.