BoxRec

ZL: Too bad, I’d always liked that story—it made me think of a little defenseless town bracing itself before a hurricane struck…. Here’s something I’ve been looking forward to asking you about: the Liston-Ali fights. They fought twice. It’s a subject of much debate. Was there a fix? (In the second bout, the more controversial of the two, Ali knocked Liston out in 1 round with a short right hand—it was so short, almost no one saw it; Ali called it “the anchor punch.”)

GC: No. In the second fight, Ali really hit him. One my fighters, Alex Miteff, fought Ali. Miteff was a tough, tough guy from Argentina. And he was really doing a pretty good job on Ali’s body. All of a sudden, Ali just hit him with a little right hand: down and out for ten. Ten! Just caught him right.

ZL: I’ve heard that Liston bet on himself to lose?

GC: You’ll always hear that kind of crap.



http://fightbeat.com/printarticle.php?AT=175

I think Liston got paid to find a soft spot on the canvas in the second fight.

the knock down seems genuine..listons antics , rolling around after was very suspect...a lot of peeps thought he was doing to make Ali look ridiculous ..........jersey joe totally fucked up the refereeing

mind u jersey joe was looking for a quick out in the second marciano fight

Ali himself stood over him for ten minutes accusing him of dogging the fight, and causing a big scene that actually delayed him from winning the fight. How often do you see Ali (or any fighter, for that matter) do that??

Liston dogged it (for whatever reason) and even Ali himself acknowledged it right there.

My2Sense wrote:Ali himself stood over him for ten minutes accusing him of dogging the fight, and causing a big scene that actually delayed him from winning the fight. How often do you see Ali (or any fighter, for that matter) do that??

Liston dogged it (for whatever reason) and even Ali himself acknowledged it right there.

Liston said Ali was crazy and would have hit him as he tried to get up...

In the 2nd fight, the "knockdown" at best was a flash knockdown, but I don't even believe that.

I think Clancy is astute, but he is mistaken if he thinks the Lewiston fight was anywhere near legit. Liston did a terrible acting job on the canvas.

Besides, you know what Ali said to his cornermen in the aftermath in the ring?

"Don't say nothing"

Ali knew.

I have viewed the film a few times looking for the punch and what I see doesn't convince me. Having said that I remember that Leotis Martin knocked out Liston with one solid punch in Liston's comeback years. Maybe the guy was susceptible to quick right hands?

I'm pretty sure the only one who knows the answer is Liston himself. Which if true and by definition means there was no conspiracy. The shot was real, it can be seen, just how damaging it was is very difficult to determine, but Terry I'm with you, I think he just chose not to take the certain whuppin' that had begun and was likely to continue coming his way.

BoxBuzz wrote:I'm pretty sure the only one who knows the answer is Liston himself. Which if true and by definition means there was no conspiracy. The shot was real, it can be seen, just how damaging it was is very difficult to determine, but Terry I'm with you, I think he just chose not to take the certain whuppin' that had begun and was likely to continue coming his way.

I think Ali also knows the answer. He threw the punch.

BoxBuzz wrote:I'm pretty sure the only one who knows the answer is Liston himself. Which if true and by definition means there was no conspiracy. The shot was real, it can be seen, just how damaging it was is very difficult to determine, but Terry I'm with you, I think he just chose not to take the certain whuppin' that had begun and was likely to continue coming his way.

At that point in their careers Ali was just too fast and too strong for Sonny Liston...If the fight continued he would have hurt Sonny Liston badly...It would have likely been more one sided than Cammacho-Leonard or Holmes-Ali...Sonny couldn't lay a glove on him in Miami Beach before the "Linament Round" so how was he going to lay a glove on him in Lewiston.

Occam's Razor comes into play...When you eliminate all the other possibilities the most likely possibility is true...Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...Liston didn't get up because he didn't want to get hurt badly...

The whole second fight just never seems right. Whatever happened
will never be fully known, but it was very unusual.

The first fight seems pretty much on the level to me.

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:I'm pretty sure the only one who knows the answer is Liston himself. Which if true and by definition means there was no conspiracy. The shot was real, it can be seen, just how damaging it was is very difficult to determine, but Terry I'm with you, I think he just chose not to take the certain whuppin' that had begun and was likely to continue coming his way.

At that point in their careers Ali was just too fast and too strong for Sonny Liston...If the fight continued he would have hurt Sonny Liston badly...It would have likely been more one sided than Commacho-Leonard or Holmes-Ali...Sonny couldn't lay a glove on him in Miami Beach before the "Linament Round" so how was he going to lay a glove on him in Lewiston.

Occam's Razor comes into play...When you eliminate all the other possibilities the most likely possibility is true...Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...Liston didn't get up because he didn't want to get hurt badly...

TheOneIsHere2008 - I totally agree with you. IMO that is exactly what happened.
The first fight was genuine - Liston knew that he could not beat Ali.

SteveO wrote:

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:I'm pretty sure the only one who knows the answer is Liston himself. Which if true and by definition means there was no conspiracy. The shot was real, it can be seen, just how damaging it was is very difficult to determine, but Terry I'm with you, I think he just chose not to take the certain whuppin' that had begun and was likely to continue coming his way.

At that point in their careers Ali was just too fast and too strong for Sonny Liston...If the fight continued he would have hurt Sonny Liston badly...It would have likely been more one sided than Commacho-Leonard or Holmes-Ali...Sonny couldn't lay a glove on him in Miami Beach before the "Linament Round" so how was he going to lay a glove on him in Lewiston.

Occam's Razor comes into play...When you eliminate all the other possibilities the most likely possibility is true...Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...Liston didn't get up because he didn't want to get hurt badly...

TheOneIsHere2008 - I totally agree with you. IMO that is exactly what happened.
The first fight was genuine - Liston knew that he could not beat Ali.

He was continually getting beat to the punch in the first fight...It is what it is...At that point, as in the tragic cases of Cammacho-Leonard and Ali-Holmes resistance become futile and dangerous...Ali and Leonard were literally defenseless in those fights...If that fight in Lewiston continued Liston would have been defenseless as well...

Most people in this forum have never fought...Ask the few posters who have...Balance being what is is it doesn't take a great shot to knock a person down...It does take a great shot to knock a person down and leave him that way...IMHO, Liston chose not to get up to avoid further punishment...Because of the first fight, quitting on the stool was not an option...

Terry D wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:I'm pretty sure the only one who knows the answer is Liston himself. Which if true and by definition means there was no conspiracy. The shot was real, it can be seen, just how damaging it was is very difficult to determine, but Terry I'm with you, I think he just chose not to take the certain whuppin' that had begun and was likely to continue coming his way.

I'm going off the testamony of his wife Buzz so that is a black mark against me. I bet she didn't even know who he fought in his fifth pro fight, and certainly cannot tell us the weight of both fighters off the top of her head. I think she might be onto something though.

What was Liston going to do?

At that time Ali didn't have the maturity Larry Holmes had in gently (if there is such as thing as "gently" in a sport as dangerous, competitive, and violent as boxing at that level) disposing of an overmatched foe like Holmes disposing of him...Ali might have killed him... You don't need a Foreman or Shavers like hammer to kill a man in the ring as the relatively light hitting Emile Griffith showed us when he unintentionally killed Benny Paret...

The knock down was real... Liston chose to not get back up to avoid further punishment or worse...

You're preaching to the choir mate

Liston said he was afraid Ali was going to hit him as he tried to stand up... I think Cassius Clay (Muhammad Ali) convinced Liston he was crazy if not dangerous...

i think he just wanted out

check the 2nd marciano/ walcott fight...an aging but durable ex champ turns up for the paycheck and is out inside one round...it happens

funso banjo baby wrote:i think he just wanted out

check the 2nd marciano/ walcott fight...an aging but durable ex champ turns up for the paycheck and is out inside one round...it happens

"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

funso banjo baby wrote:the knock down seems genuine..listons antics , rolling around after was very suspect...a lot of peeps thought he was doing to make Ali look ridiculous ..........jersey joe totally fucked up the refereeing

mind u jersey joe was looking for a quick out in the second marciano fight

I pretty much agree.

Harvey Levy wrote:Having said that I remember that Leotis Martin knocked out Liston with one solid punch in Liston's comeback years. Maybe the guy was susceptible to quick right hands?

The "one solid punch" was exactly that, though - one solid punch. It came straight across and landed flush on Liston's jaw, and knocked him out cold. That was also after nine rounds of hard fighting, after Liston had already taken some hard punishment and his face was cut and swollen, if I remember correctly.

George Chuvalo was sitting in the 4th row during the second Liston-Ali fake.

His comment?

"It was a phony."

granberry wrote:George Chuvalo was sitting in the 4th row during the second Liston-Ali fake.

His comment?

"It was a phony."

The Washerwoman always was envious of the more successful boxers.

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:

granberry wrote:George Chuvalo was sitting in the 4th row during the second Liston-Ali fake.

His comment?

"It was a phony."

The Washerwoman always was envious of the more successful boxers.

Your tripe is getting more and more pathetic, TheOne.
.

I just can not no matter how many times I watch that
fight bring myself to those conclusions that it was a
'solid' punch or that Liston was 'off-balance'.

It he was off balance he would have been flash knock
down....in the first thats a pretty quick recovery.

Lets say he was scared of Ali hitting him, while he was
down, why did he basically lay there ?

Even Ali's reaction to the 'win' was a bit off...

what truely happened I shall like all of you will never
know.

What did happen was not honest on the level boxing.

granberry wrote:

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:

granberry wrote:George Chuvalo was sitting in the 4th row during the second Liston-Ali fake.

His comment?

"It was a phony."

The Washerwoman always was envious of the more successful boxers.

My tripe is getting more and more pathetic, TheOne.

I agree...But don't be so hard on yourself.

Stop falsifying quotes, The One.

Here is what I wrote.

granberry wrote:

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:

granberry wrote:George Chuvalo was sitting in the 4th row during the second Liston-Ali fake.

His comment?

"It was a phony."

The Washerwoman always was envious of the more successful boxers.

Your tripe is getting more and more pathetic, TheOne.
.