BoxRec

What is the obligation of a boxer who finds him or herself hopelessly outmatched and being beaten silly?

Watching the Holmes-Ali and the Cammacho-Leonard debacles on youtube recently made me ponder this question. In both instances you had formerly great champions who whatever their detractors say abou them can not deny that they mixed it up with the roughest and toughest men of their era...But both ended up helpless... Ali and Leonard had made their bones laying on the ropes at times and trading blows with bigger and stronger men...But robbed by age of the tools that made them great the only thing they could do on the ropes is cower and turn away...

Yesterday ,Eddie Futch's decision to not allow Joe Frazier to come out for the fifteeenth round in The Thrilla In Manilla was questioned as if he didn't risk permanent injury to his fighter by letting him come out fighting nearly blinded...

What is a boxer and trainer's obligation to themselves, their client, and their fans...

IMO, a boxer has an obligation to try to win. I don't like to see boxers try to survive just so they don't get knocked out. But, having said that, I'm not in the ring and risking getting knocked out or hurt badly just to try to win when clearly overmatched should be taken into consideration by fight fans. After all the ring is not the Roman Coliseum.

Harvey Levy wrote:IMO, a boxer has an obligation to try to win. I don't like to see boxers try to survive just so they don't get knocked out. But, having said that, I'm not in the ring and risking getting knocked out or hurt badly just to try to win when clearly overmatched should be taken into consideration by fight fans. After all the ring is not the Roman Coliseum.

That's what I was getting at...And Holmes displayed great compassionby trying to win the fight without hurting his friend and mentor... Cammacho showed no such compassion when he beat Leonard...And yeah, I realize boxing is a tough sport but a win is a win is a win...There's no need to seriously hurt or humiliate somebody...

That's not what I meant though. I think a fighter should try to win by any means possible regardless of who his opponent is or the condition his opponent is in. IMO, letting up against an overmatched opponent is a mistake because there's always the chance that opponent could get lucky or an injury might force the bout to be stopped. What I'm referring to is that if a boxer is clearly overmatched as a fan I would not hold it against him if he just tried to survive. Getting seriously hurt or killed in the ring just to please the crowd is not an obligation unlike the poor bastards who fought in the Roman Coliseum, who had no other choice.

If you go into boxing for anything besides money, you're in for the wrong reason. If you don't want to quit when you should, you're doing it for your own pride, no one else's. Jake LaMotta could have gone down against Robinson in the Massacre, but he's been proud of withstanding that assault ever since. Years later, in his autobiography, he went on about how much it meant to him to survive, maybe more than it would have if he'd won the match. Anyone can win a match, but who can withstand an assault like that?

Big Bad John wrote:If you go into boxing for anything besides money, you're in for the wrong reason. If you don't want to quit when you should, you're doing it for your own pride, no one else's. Jake LaMotta could have gone down against Robinson in the Massacre, but he's been proud of withstanding that assault ever since. Years later, in his autobiography, he went on about how much it meant to him to survive, maybe more than it would have if he'd won the match. Anyone can win a match, but who can withstand an assault like that?

Here again is Jake laMotta. What is it with you and Jake, BBJ? Did he lend you money Jake supposedly threw the fight against Fox for a shot at the MW title. I bet Jake was real proud of that!!

If you read his autobiography, you'd know he wasn't.

Harvey Levy wrote:

Big Bad John wrote:If you go into boxing for anything besides money, you're in for the wrong reason. If you don't want to quit when you should, you're doing it for your own pride, no one else's. Jake LaMotta could have gone down against Robinson in the Massacre, but he's been proud of withstanding that assault ever since. Years later, in his autobiography, he went on about how much it meant to him to survive, maybe more than it would have if he'd won the match. Anyone can win a match, but who can withstand an assault like that?

Here again is Jake laMotta. What is it with you and Jake, BBJ? Did he lend you money Jake supposedly threw the fight against Fox for a shot at the MW title. I bet Jake was real proud of that!!

LaMotta was a tough guy...That can not be taken away from him...I do wonder how he would do against some of the more polished boxers...

LaMotta was a tough guy...That can not be taken away from him...I do wonder how he would do against some of the more polished boxers...

Yep, LaMotta came to fight and that's half the battle won. I'm sure that he would have beaten many simply because he was relentless while some of the more polished might get intimidated. For example, I didn't think Carlos Baldomir had a snowball chance in Hell against Zab Judah but he won. But I don't think LaMotta had the necessary skills to regularly overcome the more polished and tough 160 lbs like the taller and more athletic MW champions of the 70's and beyond.

Harvey Levy wrote:

LaMotta was a tough guy...That can not be taken away from him...I do wonder how he would do against some of the more polished boxers...

Yep, LaMotta came to fight and that's half the battle won. I'm sure that he would have beaten many simply because he was relentless while some of the more polished might get intimidated. For example, I didn't think Carlos Baldomir had a snowball chance in Hell against Zab Judah but he won. But I don't think LaMotta had the necessary skills to regularly overcome the more polished and tough 160 lbs like the taller and more athletic MW champions of the 70's and beyond.

Cus D'Amato always said a boxer with good kills and character will often beat san opponent of superior skill but less charcater...But his prized protege, Mike Tyson, never took that sage advice to heed...

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:

Harvey Levy wrote:

LaMotta was a tough guy...That can not be taken away from him...I do wonder how he would do against some of the more polished boxers...

Yep, LaMotta came to fight and that's half the battle won. I'm sure that he would have beaten many simply because he was relentless while some of the more polished might get intimidated. For example, I didn't think Carlos Baldomir had a snowball chance in Hell against Zab Judah but he won. But I don't think LaMotta had the necessary skills to regularly overcome the more polished and tough 160 lbs like the taller and more athletic MW champions of the 70's and beyond.

Cus D'Amato always said a boxer with good kills and character will often beat san opponent of superior skill but less charcater...But his prized protege, Mike Tyson, never took that sage advice to heed...

I heard Barry McGuigan quote something that is very important in boxing:

"Often, what's more important is the size of the fight in the dog, rather than the size of the dog in the fight."

Yep, LaMotta came to fight and that's half the battle won. I'm sure that he would have beaten many simply because he was relentless while some of the more polished might get intimidated. For example, I didn't think Carlos Baldomir had a snowball chance in Hell against Zab Judah but he won. But I don't think LaMotta had the necessary skills to regularly overcome the more polished and tough 160 lbs like the taller and more athletic MW champions of the 70's and beyond.[/quote]

Cus D'Amato always said a boxer with good kills and character will often beat san opponent of superior skill but less charcater...But his prized protege, Mike Tyson, never took that sage advice to heed...[/quote]


I heard Barry McGuigan quote something that is very important in boxing:

"Often, what's more important is the size of the fight in the dog, rather than the size of the dog in the fight."[/quote]


That's a popular saying in the States...It's in the movie Hustle and Flow...

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:

Harvey Levy wrote:

LaMotta was a tough guy...That can not be taken away from him...I do wonder how he would do against some of the more polished boxers...

Yep, LaMotta came to fight and that's half the battle won. I'm sure that he would have beaten many simply because he was relentless while some of the more polished might get intimidated. For example, I didn't think Carlos Baldomir had a snowball chance in Hell against Zab Judah but he won. But I don't think LaMotta had the necessary skills to regularly overcome the more polished and tough 160 lbs like the taller and more athletic MW champions of the 70's and beyond.

Cus D'Amato always said a boxer with good kills and character will often beat san opponent of superior skill but less charcater...But his prized protege, Mike Tyson, never took that sage advice to heed...

Though Floyd Patterson and Jose Torres were men among men and went
on to prove in and out of the ring that they had tremendous character.

As well as being excellent champions.

A fighter is paid to fight. The better he does the more he
(in theory) advances to bigger pay days.

History, legacy and standings in the hall of fame are things
that a very very very few talented men get to consider and
often that is when their careers are near the end.

For most prize fighters it is something they do after normal
working hours, for little money to some good money and when
you have a mortgage and mouths to feed it all helps.

Often the greatest displays of courage and character are
seen by a few in those who have no names to most of us,
guys who take it on the chin week in and week out, guys that
make up one of those W's on perhaps a contenders or a champions
record.

The fighter has only and obligation to himself. It is him that
sweats in the gym, it is him that has to cut the weight, feel
the growl of hunger in his stomach, it is him that has to deal
with the shame of loss, the feeling of disappointment, no one
else is their for him when that happens.

It seems it is for all when he wins and makes the money...we
all share in that glory....just not in the sorrow of loss and defeat.

What is his obligation....to his fans...nothing..that is why we are
fans....we follow them as to how they entertain us.

What is the obligation to the public....the more fame the more
responsibility one has....especially as a role model...BUT in this
era of self absorbtion and instant celebrity...it seems the positive
role model is old fashioned.

What is the obligation to the public....the more fame the more
responsibility one has....especially as a role model...BUT in this
era of self absorbtion and instant celebrity...it seems the positive
role model is old fashioned.

I think Lenox Lewsis and Evander Holyfield were gentlemen who represented the heavyweight division well...Both rejected Mike Tyson's entreaties to join him in the gutter...

Well many could argue that both Lennox and Holyfield
are far from being positive also...

Holyfield for his relationships and numerous children
he has had to numerous women..as well as his 'dirtier'
in ring talents.

Lewis for his Rastafarian lifestyle..

to me it does not affect how I view and enjoy these men
in the ring. Its not for me to judge or dislike an entertainer
for how they live...so long as they entertain me in their
respective fields.

Show up to the fight in SHAPE.
Always give it 100 percent from bell to bell.
You dont quit.
Your corners obligation is to look after you and pull you out of there if your in danger.
If you do this and the fans complain about you, then the heck with them.

Expug wrote:Show up to the fight in SHAPE.
Always give it 100 percent from bell to bell.
You dont quit.
Your corners obligation is to look after you and pull you out of there if your in danger.
If you do this and the fans complain about you, then the heck with them.

Great post, Pug. When it comes to pulling out a fighter in danger, I always feel that Davey Moore's corner let him down badly against Duran when they failed to pull him out at the end of the seventh round. It was a horrible thing to see him sent out again, especially as the referee was walking around in a world of his own.