BoxRec

I'll take Smokin Joe with his relentless bobbing and weaving...And unlike Big George, Sonny Liston does not have an enormous advantage in strength though his reach is much longer...He's not pushing Joe back...

I think if Smoking Joe fought in the fifties and early sixties he would have dominated that era...He just had the fortune or misfortune of fighting in one of the strongest eras for heavyweights...

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:I'll take Smokin Joe with his relentless bobbing and weaving...And unlike Big George, Sonny Liston does not have an enormous advantage in strength though his reach is much longer...He's not pushing Joe back...

I think if Smoking Joe fought in the fifties and early sixties he would have dominated that era...He just had the fortune or misfortune of fighting in one of the strongest eras for heavyweights...

Very dangerous fight for Frazier in the early rounds until he gets fully in rhythm, but my guess is that he figures out Sonny's jab, gets to the inside, imposes his will and wins a battle of attrition in something like 10 to 12 rounds.

With Liston, I'm just not sure of the heart factor. Once Frazier gets control of the fight and lays on Sonny's chest, it might go quicker than 12 rounds.

A frequent poster here is probably going to say that Yancey Durham ducked Liston circa '68, but I know that Liston was an anathema at this point, and I'm not sure how much Frazier really had to gain by fighting him.

yancey wrote:

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:I'll take Smokin Joe with his relentless bobbing and weaving...And unlike Big George, Sonny Liston does not have an enormous advantage in strength though his reach is much longer...He's not pushing Joe back...

I think if Smoking Joe fought in the fifties and early sixties he would have dominated that era...He just had the fortune or misfortune of fighting in one of the strongest eras for heavyweights...

Very dangerous fight for Frazier in the early rounds until he gets fully in rhythm, but my guess is that he gets to the inside, imposes his will and wins a battle of attrition in something like 10 to 12 rounds.

With Liston, I'm just not sure of the heart factor. Once Frazier gets control of the fight and lays on Sonny's chest, it might go quicker than 12 rounds.

A frequent poster here is probably going to say that Yancey Durham ducked Liston circa '68, but I know that Liston was an anathema at this point, and I'm not sure how much Frazier really had to gain by fighting him.

Liston was well past his prime by then...He was past his prime when he lost to Muhammad Ali in 1964...He was an old 32...

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:

yancey wrote:

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:I'll take Smokin Joe with his relentless bobbing and weaving...And unlike Big George, Sonny Liston does not have an enormous advantage in strength though his reach is much longer...He's not pushing Joe back...

I think if Smoking Joe fought in the fifties and early sixties he would have dominated that era...He just had the fortune or misfortune of fighting in one of the strongest eras for heavyweights...

Very dangerous fight for Frazier in the early rounds until he gets fully in rhythm, but my guess is that he gets to the inside, imposes his will and wins a battle of attrition in something like 10 to 12 rounds.

With Liston, I'm just not sure of the heart factor. Once Frazier gets control of the fight and lays on Sonny's chest, it might go quicker than 12 rounds.

A frequent poster here is probably going to say that Yancey Durham ducked Liston circa '68, but I know that Liston was an anathema at this point, and I'm not sure how much Frazier really had to gain by fighting him.

Liston was well past his prime by then...He was past his prime when he lost to Muhammad Ali in 1964...He was an old 32...

Yes, by '66 to '68 Liston was way past his prime, but he was still fighting.

As I recall, quite a few of his fights post the Lewiston debacle were overseas in Sweden. He was personna non grata in boxing circles after Lewiston, but did run up a streak of victories against mostly tomato cans until he ran into Leotis Martin.

When I was a kid Leotis Martin was my second favorite fighter...Why? I don't know now...I think he made it all the way up to #3 or #4 in the rankings... I followed it more closely as a kid than I do now...

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:When I was a kid Leotis Martin was my second favorite fighter...Why? I don't know now...I think he made it all the way up to #3 or #4 in the rankings... I followed it more closely as a kid than I do now...

Man, did he have some bad luck. Speech problems. Knocks out Liston, and has to retire. Downhill from there.

I was a serious boxing nut as a kid back then, and I remember oh so well the much ballyhooed 8 man elimination tournament to establish a new champ back in '67-'68. Anyway, the tournament kicked off with a Saturday afternoon doubleheader from the Houston Astrodome, first bout was Ellis-Martin. ABC Wide World of Sports, Cosell on the call. I was pulling for Martin, too, but he had a terrible first round and Ellis punched him all over the ring. Martin hung in there, steadied a bit, but the fight was stopped in the 9th, as I recall.

I would have liked to have seen him win the tournament, fight Frazier in a unification fight, and make some serious money to get him some momentum in life.

yancey wrote:

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:When I was a kid Leotis Martin was my second favorite fighter...Why? I don't know now...I think he made it all the way up to #3 or #4 in the rankings... I followed it more closely as a kid than I do now...

Man, did he have some bad luck. Speech problems. Knocks out Liston, and has to retire. Downhill from there.

I was a serious boxing nut as a kid back then, and I remember oh so well the much ballyhooed 8 man elimination tournament to establish a new champ back in '67-'68. Anyway, the tournament kicked off with a Saturday afternoon doubleheader from the Houston Astrodome, first bout was Ellis-Martin. ABC Wide World of Sports, Cosell on the call. I was pulling for Martin, too, but he had a terrible first round and Ellis punched him all over the ring. Martin hung in there, steadied a bit, but the fight was stopped in the 9th, as I recall.

I would have liked to have seen him win the tournament, fight Frazier in a unification fight, and make some serious money to get him some momentum in life.

Jimmy Ellis is another fighter who might have been champ in the late 50's and early 60's...As it was he was a champ for a very short time... He was another "classical" boxer...I liked the swarmers like Frazier, the sluggers like Foreman, or the "Fancy Dans" like Leonard and Ali...

I used to like Quarry...He reminds me of the fictional Rocky...

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:

yancey wrote:

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:When I was a kid Leotis Martin was my second favorite fighter...Why? I don't know now...I think he made it all the way up to #3 or #4 in the rankings... I followed it more closely as a kid than I do now...

Man, did he have some bad luck. Speech problems. Knocks out Liston, and has to retire. Downhill from there.

I was a serious boxing nut as a kid back then, and I remember oh so well the much ballyhooed 8 man elimination tournament to establish a new champ back in '67-'68. Anyway, the tournament kicked off with a Saturday afternoon doubleheader from the Houston Astrodome, first bout was Ellis-Martin. ABC Wide World of Sports, Cosell on the call. I was pulling for Martin, too, but he had a terrible first round and Ellis punched him all over the ring. Martin hung in there, steadied a bit, but the fight was stopped in the 9th, as I recall.

I would have liked to have seen him win the tournament, fight Frazier in a unification fight, and make some serious money to get him some momentum in life.

Jimmy Ellis is another fighter who might have been champ in the late 50's and early 60's...As it was he was a champ for a very short time... He was another "classical" boxer...I liked the swarmers like Frazier, the sluggers like Foreman, or the "Fancy Dans" like Leonard and Ali...

I used to like Quarry...He reminds me of the fictional Rocky...

I can't see Ellis handling the likes of Liston and Cleveland Williams back in the late '50s. To me, Ellis would have made a great cruiserweight champ. I will never understand how Ellis got up from that 2nd knockdown in the Frazier fight. Dundee has said the same. Lots of heart.

Quarry-Frazier I is actually my favorite Frazier fight. Round 1 is one of the greatest rounds of all-time. Quarry tried to man up with Joe, held his own early, but got beaten down. He would have been a mess had the fight not been stopped on cuts. Lots of heart, but another sad story.

You may not like to hear this, but I've long maintained that Frazier's real peak came in '69 with Quarry and early '70 with the Ellis fight. His blood pressure problems got more pronounced before the FOTC, but that kind of payday was not going to be missed.

Yes , boxing killed Jerry Quarry and Mike Quarry... One can not forget it's a brutal sport...

It's like in Rocky Balboa when Paulie says "it take guts to go in there when you know you're going to get your brains beat out...

I enjoyed Quarry's fights with Ali though they were obviously mismatches...

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:Yes , boxing killed Jerry Quarry and Mike Quarry... One can not forget it's a brutal sport...

It's like in Rocky Balboa when Paulie says "it take guts to go in there when you know you're going to get your brains beat out...

I enjoyed Quarry's fights with Ali though they were obviously mismatches...

Quarry's second fight with Frazier is airing right now on ESPN Classic where I live. What an awfully late stoppage this was by the referee, who happened to be Joe Louis. Joe moped around like he was on another planet that night. This fight was probably the biggest single contrubation to Quarry's post-career condition.

BTW, Quarry goes down in the fight, if I remember it correctly. That's the only time I personally know of Quarry ever going down.

Quarry looked shot by this time, although Frazier wasn't too far behind IMO.


EDIT: Quarry's fight with Norton will air after this one. Another fight where Quarry took way too many punches.

As for the original topic...

Somehow, I just can't picture Sonny doing to Frazier what George did. I'm just not convinced that he was strong enough, or even powerful enough with both hands.

But then again, if I hadn't seen George do it, I probably would never have thought he could do it either...

Still, I would favor Frazier to bob and weave under Liston's jab and then work him over on the inside, until Liston is either KO'd or quits.

My2Sense wrote:

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:Yes , boxing killed Jerry Quarry and Mike Quarry... One can not forget it's a brutal sport...

It's like in Rocky Balboa when Paulie says "it take guts to go in there when you know you're going to get your brains beat out...

I enjoyed Quarry's fights with Ali though they were obviously mismatches...

Quarry's second fight with Frazier is airing right now on ESPN Classic where I live. What an awfully late stoppage this was by the referee, who happened to be Joe Louis. Joe moped around like he was on another planet that night. This fight was probably the biggest single contrubation to Quarry's post-career condition.

BTW, Quarry goes down in the fight, if I remember it correctly. That's the only time I personally know of Quarry ever going down.

Quarry looked shot by this time, although Frazier wasn't too far behind IMO.


EDIT: Quarry's fight with Norton will air after this one. Another fight where Quarry took way too many punches.

Thanks for the update but now it's too late...

You can find some gems on a Tuesday morning at 4: 00 AM like Clay-Miteff...

My2Sense wrote:As for the original topic...

Somehow, I just can't picture Sonny doing to Frazier what George did. I'm just not convinced that he was strong enough, or even powerful enough with both hands.

But then again, if I hadn't seen George do it, I probably would never have thought he could do it either...

Still, I would favor Frazier to bob and weave under Liston's jab and then work him over on the inside, until Liston is either KO'd or quits.

Foreman was a legit 6'3 1/2... Liston was a listed 6'1 ....Frazier a listed 5'11 1/2

IMHO, for all of Smokin Joe's heart and talent , George had the style to beat him every time because of the size difference...It was one instance where size did matter...

My2Sense wrote:

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:Yes , boxing killed Jerry Quarry and Mike Quarry... One can not forget it's a brutal sport...

It's like in Rocky Balboa when Paulie says "it take guts to go in there when you know you're going to get your brains beat out...

I enjoyed Quarry's fights with Ali though they were obviously mismatches...

Quarry's second fight with Frazier is airing right now on ESPN Classic where I live. What an awfully late stoppage this was by the referee, who happened to be Joe Louis. Joe moped around like he was on another planet that night. This fight was probably the biggest single contrubation to Quarry's post-career condition.

BTW, Quarry goes down in the fight, if I remember it correctly. That's the only time I personally know of Quarry ever going down.

Quarry looked shot by this time, although Frazier wasn't too far behind IMO.


EDIT: Quarry's fight with Norton will air after this one. Another fight where Quarry took way too many punches.

You are right about the late stoppage in the Quarry-Frazier II.

In fact, Frazier waves at Louis trying to tell him to stop it, and you can hear ringsiders shouting "stop it, Joe!" (to Louis)

Joe Louis shouldn't been the referee in the first place. I guess MSQ gave him the job to enhance interest in the fight.

Quarry went down from a thudding left hook to the body. As I recall, earlier in that round he was hit by a left hook to the head
that probably contributed to his later troubles. It was amazing he was still standing after that one. Frazier failed to followup on that punch, but I've seen Frazier do the same against Ali I, r15, and Bugner, r10.

yancey wrote:

My2Sense wrote:

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:Yes , boxing killed Jerry Quarry and Mike Quarry... One can not forget it's a brutal sport...

It's like in Rocky Balboa when Paulie says "it take guts to go in there when you know you're going to get your brains beat out...

I enjoyed Quarry's fights with Ali though they were obviously mismatches...

Quarry's second fight with Frazier is airing right now on ESPN Classic where I live. What an awfully late stoppage this was by the referee, who happened to be Joe Louis. Joe moped around like he was on another planet that night. This fight was probably the biggest single contrubation to Quarry's post-career condition.

BTW, Quarry goes down in the fight, if I remember it correctly. That's the only time I personally know of Quarry ever going down.

Quarry looked shot by this time, although Frazier wasn't too far behind IMO.


EDIT: Quarry's fight with Norton will air after this one. Another fight where Quarry took way too many punches.

You are right about the late stoppage in the Quarry-Frazier II.

In fact, Frazier waves at Louis trying to tell him to stop it, and you can hear ringsiders shouting "stop it, Joe!" (to Louis)

Joe Louis shouldn't been the referee in the first place. I guess MSQ gave him the job to enhance interest in the fight.

Quarry went down from a thudding left hook to the body. As I recall, earlier in that round he was hit by a left hook to the head
that probably contributed to his later troubles. It was amazing he was still standing after that one. Frazier failed to followup on that punch, but I've seen Frazier do the same against Ali I, r15, and Bugner, r10.

It's better with pictures:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyzFObCvtDk

Thanks for that youtube link.

At the VERY beginning of the clip is the left hook to Quarry's chin I mentioned in the previous post.

yancey wrote:Thanks for that youtube link.

At the VERY beginning of the clip is the left hook to Quarry's chin I mentioned in the previous post.

Was Quarry's dad in his corner?

I couldn't watch my son get hammered like that...

There's a lot of talk on this board and other boards that Foreman was scared of Quarry...I just don't see it...

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:

yancey wrote:Thanks for that youtube link.

At the VERY beginning of the clip is the left hook to Quarry's chin I mentioned in the previous post.

Was Quarry's dad in his corner?

I couldn't watch my son get hammered like that...

Don't know if Jack Quarry was in the corner. I do know that Johnny Flores, Quarry's longtime trainer, was not in the corner for that fight. There had been a falling out over something.

Jerry Quarry actually had a good job at CBS being the color analyst on fights sometime later, but the gig eventually fell through for one reason or another.

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:

yancey wrote:Thanks for that youtube link.

At the VERY beginning of the clip is the left hook to Quarry's chin I mentioned in the previous post.

Was Quarry's dad in his corner?

I couldn't watch my son get hammered like that...

There's a lot of talk on this board and other boards that Foreman was scared of Quarry...I just don't see it...

I don't see it, either. I think George said it somewhere along the line, but my guess is that George was mainly being nice. I don't see Quarry ever being able to handle Foreman circa 1973.

I'm pretty certain Quarry was knocked down by Patterson.

Seamus wrote:I'm pretty certain Quarry was knocked down by Patterson.

Correct:

referee: John Thomas 5-5 | judge: George Latka 7-6 | judge: Dick Young 6-6 ~
Patterson down twice in the 2nd, Quarry down in the 7th

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:

My2Sense wrote:As for the original topic...

Somehow, I just can't picture Sonny doing to Frazier what George did. I'm just not convinced that he was strong enough, or even powerful enough with both hands.

But then again, if I hadn't seen George do it, I probably would never have thought he could do it either...

Still, I would favor Frazier to bob and weave under Liston's jab and then work him over on the inside, until Liston is either KO'd or quits.

Foreman was a legit 6'3 1/2... Liston was a listed 6'1 ....Frazier a listed 5'11 1/2

IMHO, for all of Smokin Joe's heart and talent , George had the style to beat him every time because of the size difference...It was one instance where size did matter...

I don't think it was so much size in that Frazier's slow starting come forward style played right into Foreman's own fast-starting, aggressive style. Foreman's trust in his own durability (which cost him vs Lyle) allowed him to set his punches and unleash his brutal uppercuts, which was the punch that did Frazier in. Someone like Lennox Lewis wouldn't have taken advantage like Foreman did b/c he was by nature much more cautious and wary of the big punch . . he would've spent the opening rounds largely attempting to clinch Frazier.

Seamus wrote:I'm pretty certain Quarry was knocked down by Patterson.

Not only that, but I just remembered he was also down (and out) against George Chuvalo, in what was supposed to have been a very infamous/controversial knockout (although I never saw it myself).

What really sucks is that I've made that mistake before, about Quarry being down for the first time against Frazier. I don't know why I keep thinking that...

yancey wrote:

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:

yancey wrote:Thanks for that youtube link.

At the VERY beginning of the clip is the left hook to Quarry's chin I mentioned in the previous post.

Was Quarry's dad in his corner?

I couldn't watch my son get hammered like that...

There's a lot of talk on this board and other boards that Foreman was scared of Quarry...I just don't see it...

I don't see it, either. I think George said it somewhere along the line, but my guess is that George was mainly being nice. I don't see Quarry ever being able to handle Foreman circa 1973.

There was talk that if Quarry got by Shavers (which of course he did) that he would be the next to challenge Foreman. Foreman elected to defend against Norton instead, and then against the winner of the Ali-Frazier rematch (after which Quarry lost to Frazier, which pretty much ended his days as a serious contender). I don't know why Foremen apparently backed out of fighting Quarry. Who knows what was going on in Foreman's mind, but personally I feel if they ever had fought, Foreman would've likely pounded his face into mush.

Joe Frazier vs Sonny Liston....A hard one to pick. The longer the fight goes, I gotta go with Joe. He was a smoking machine as the fight progresses. Like Julio Cesar Chavez and Rocky Marciano or Vicente Saldivar. Very hard to beat guys after they were in HIGH GEAR.