BoxRec

Hello there

I'm hoping I don't get shot down in flames on my very first post, but I was wondering what you thought of the possibility (in my mind), that had Rocky Marciano not retired after the Archie Moore fight and hung around for another year or maybe more, he may have been beaten (on points) by Floyd Patterson.

I know Floyd could not handle Ali or Liston, but there are some great names on his record, and I believe he is considered by many to have been on the wrong end of bad decisions when facing Jerry Quarry and Jimmy Ellis.

Obviously Rocky has the greatest record of all, great names there also, but I think past their best great names.

It's just something I wonder about (maybe I need a life).

I do think that had Rocky stayed on a while and met a late 50's Liston, he would have lost in a similiar way to how Frazier lost to Foreman.

Just my first initial thoughts. Please be gentle!

hoodsyeahright wrote:Hello there

I'm hoping I don't get shot down in flames on my very first post, but I was wondering what you thought of the possibility (in my mind), that had Rocky Marciano not retired after the Archie Moore fight and hung around for another year or maybe more, he may have been beaten (on points) by Floyd Patterson.

I know Floyd could not handle Ali or Liston, but there are some great names on his record, and I believe he is considered by many to have been on the wrong end of bad decisions when facing Jerry Quarry and Jimmy Ellis.

Obviously Rocky has the greatest record of all, great names there also, but I think past their best great names.

It's just something I wonder about (maybe I need a life).

I do think that had Rocky stayed on a while and met a late 50's Liston, he would have lost in a similiar way to how Frazier lost to Foreman.

Just my first initial thoughts. Please be gentle!

Rocky was a great fighter...He beat everybody he fought but people confuse unbeaten with unbeatable...

Patterson was a more aesthetically pleasing boxer but I don't see him beating Rocky... Liston is interesting....

I do not think the 50's were the heyday of the heavyweight division...

Yes, I think Rocky could have beaten Patterson but I don't think he would have beaten Liston.

Patterson and Marciano would indeed be intresting, can see it going both ways.

Liston and Marciano, i only see one winner; Liston.

If you gentlemen think Liston could have beat Rocky he's not all that special...

I have Liston at #12 among heavyweights...

Maybe they have Liston much higher than #12, and think Rocky and Liston were both special fighters in their primes.

I must admit I have Liston in my top 8, but I dont have Rocky. For what it's worth and in no particular order - Ali, Holmes, Foreman, Liston, Frazier, Lewis, Johnson, Louis.

hoodsyeahright wrote:I must admit I have Liston in my top 8, but I dont have Rocky. For what it's worth and in no particular order - Ali, Holmes, Foreman, Liston, Frazier, Lewis, Johnson, Louis.

1) Muhammad Ali

2) Jack Johnson

3) Joe Louis

4) Rocky Marciano

5) Jack Dempsey

6) George Foreman

7) Larry Holmes

8 ) Joe Frazier

9) Lennox Lewis

10) Evander Holyfield

11) Mike Tyson

12) Sonny Liston

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:

hoodsyeahright wrote:Hello there

I'm hoping I don't get shot down in flames on my very first post, but I was wondering what you thought of the possibility (in my mind), that had Rocky Marciano not retired after the Archie Moore fight and hung around for another year or maybe more, he may have been beaten (on points) by Floyd Patterson.

I know Floyd could not handle Ali or Liston, but there are some great names on his record, and I believe he is considered by many to have been on the wrong end of bad decisions when facing Jerry Quarry and Jimmy Ellis.

Obviously Rocky has the greatest record of all, great names there also, but I think past their best great names.

It's just something I wonder about (maybe I need a life).

I do think that had Rocky stayed on a while and met a late 50's Liston, he would have lost in a similiar way to how Frazier lost to Foreman.

Just my first initial thoughts. Please be gentle!

Rocky was a great fighter...He beat everybody he fought but people confuse unbeaten with unbeatable...
Patterson was a more aesthetically pleasing boxer but I don't see him beating Rocky... Liston is interesting....

I do not think the 50's were the heyday of the heavyweight division...

Very well said. I'm going to use that in the Current Scene when people talk about Mayweather from now on.

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:

hoodsyeahright wrote:I must admit I have Liston in my top 8, but I dont have Rocky. For what it's worth and in no particular order - Ali, Holmes, Foreman, Liston, Frazier, Lewis, Johnson, Louis.

1) Muhammad Ali

2) Jack Johnson

3) Joe Louis

4) Rocky Marciano

5) Jack Dempsey

6) George Foreman

7) Larry Holmes

8 ) Joe Frazier

9) Lennox Lewis

10) Evander Holyfield

11) Mike Tyson

12) Sonny Liston

pretty good ratings.what about "Riddick Bowe"?...He beat "Holyfield" 2 outta 3.

I also think that Prime "Ken Norton" would've beat Prime "Holyfield" as well.

I'd put Holyfield around 15 or 16.

Riddick Bowe I reckon could have been so much greater, unfulfilled potential I think. Tyson also. I honestly believed that Tyson pre Buster Douglas was ranked second only to Ali.

I remember Tyson saying that he ran at 4 in the morning because he knew his opponent wasn't. By the time of Buster Douglas I think he wasn't really training, and drinking a lot. I suppose no matter what your natural talent, hard work has to be maintained also.

Tyson had a great knowledge of boxing history and I wonder how he sees his own place in it? Does he realise he could have been so much greater?

A peak Tyson would have beaten Floyd and Rocky, but Liston?

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:

hoodsyeahright wrote:I must admit I have Liston in my top 8, but I dont have Rocky. For what it's worth and in no particular order - Ali, Holmes, Foreman, Liston, Frazier, Lewis, Johnson, Louis.

1) Muhammad Ali

2) Jack Johnson

3) Joe Louis

4) Rocky Marciano

5) Jack Dempsey

6) George Foreman

7) Larry Holmes

8 ) Joe Frazier

9) Lennox Lewis

10) Evander Holyfield

11) Mike Tyson

12) Sonny Liston

Hmm intresting..

You actually rate 185lbs Marciano and Dempsey higher than 220-240lbs monsters like Foreman, Tyson, Lewis, Frazier ?

People who say Liston beating Marciano would prove Marciano wasnt all that....

Marciano retired in April 1956, his last fight was September 55. Liston was 2-3 years into his career by then. At what point would Liston have been a big enough name for a fight with Marciano? (Patterson at the time (55/56) wasnt considered a massive enough draw for Marciano)

By the time Liston was big enough for a title shot, Marciano might have been too old to deal with him.... if they had fought while Liston was a novice, people might have said that he was beating up a prospect who had not had the experience needed.

observer1 wrote:

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:

hoodsyeahright wrote:I must admit I have Liston in my top 8, but I dont have Rocky. For what it's worth and in no particular order - Ali, Holmes, Foreman, Liston, Frazier, Lewis, Johnson, Louis.

1) Muhammad Ali

2) Jack Johnson

3) Joe Louis

4) Rocky Marciano

5) Jack Dempsey

6) George Foreman

7) Larry Holmes

8 ) Joe Frazier

9) Lennox Lewis

10) Evander Holyfield

11) Mike Tyson

12) Sonny Liston

Hmm intresting..

You actually rate 185lbs Marciano and Dempsey higher than 220-240lbs monsters like Foreman, Tyson, Lewis, Frazier ?

Well, Rocky was unbeaten...That's what gets him that high...I just take issue with folks who think unbeaten is a synonym for unbeatable...I don't think Floyd Mayweather is unbeatable...

observer1 wrote:

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:

hoodsyeahright wrote:I must admit I have Liston in my top 8, but I dont have Rocky. For what it's worth and in no particular order - Ali, Holmes, Foreman, Liston, Frazier, Lewis, Johnson, Louis.

1) Muhammad Ali

2) Jack Johnson

3) Joe Louis

4) Rocky Marciano

5) Jack Dempsey

6) George Foreman

7) Larry Holmes

8 ) Joe Frazier

9) Lennox Lewis

10) Evander Holyfield

11) Mike Tyson

12) Sonny Liston

Hmm intresting..

You actually rate 185lbs Marciano and Dempsey higher than 220-240lbs monsters like Foreman, Tyson, Lewis, Frazier ?

Most people rank fighters on achievement rather than ability. I think Liston would've given Marciano a beating but Marciano achieved more in his career. Same with Dempsey, I think several current HWs head-2-head probably would've smashed Dempsey, but the fact remains that in his time he was the shit.

It's kinda like trying to compare Mark Spitz to Michael Phelps, Phelps is way larger and heavier and has the special speedo/nasa suit etc. Of course he's a much faster swimmer than Spitz was, Spitz' old times wouldn't get him close to a medal today. But in his time he was dominant just like Phelps is now, that's how you can compare them.

Yeh I think you are right. Rocky and Jack in their day were the best, but I think they would struggle if they were around today.

Roger Bannister who ran the first 4 minute mile wouldn't even qualify for major tournaments today, though having said that, I'm not sure boxing has moved on in the way that swimming and athletics have. Jack Johnson was impossible to hit when he was around and I think he would be just as tricky to hit today.

I do think the bigger guys would beat Jack and Rocky though.

hoodsyeahright wrote:Yeh I think you are right. Rocky and Jack in their day were the best, but I think they would struggle if they were around today.

Roger Bannister who ran the first 4 minute mile wouldn't even qualify for major tournaments today, though having said that, I'm not sure boxing has moved on in the way that swimming and athletics have. Jack Johnson was impossible to hit when he was around and I think he would be just as tricky to hit today.

I do think the bigger guys would beat Jack and Rocky though.

Boxing is a lil different from other sports because you have weight classes...

But in the three major sports, participants are just plain bigger and faster, for the most part...

dajuggernaut wrote:

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:

hoodsyeahright wrote:Hello there

I'm hoping I don't get shot down in flames on my very first post, but I was wondering what you thought of the possibility (in my mind), that had Rocky Marciano not retired after the Archie Moore fight and hung around for another year or maybe more, he may have been beaten (on points) by Floyd Patterson.

I know Floyd could not handle Ali or Liston, but there are some great names on his record, and I believe he is considered by many to have been on the wrong end of bad decisions when facing Jerry Quarry and Jimmy Ellis.

Obviously Rocky has the greatest record of all, great names there also, but I think past their best great names.

It's just something I wonder about (maybe I need a life).

I do think that had Rocky stayed on a while and met a late 50's Liston, he would have lost in a similiar way to how Frazier lost to Foreman.

Just my first initial thoughts. Please be gentle!

Rocky was a great fighter...He beat everybody he fought but people confuse unbeaten with unbeatable...
Patterson was a more aesthetically pleasing boxer but I don't see him beating Rocky... Liston is interesting....

I do not think the 50's were the heyday of the heavyweight division...

Very well said. I'm going to use that in the Current Scene when people talk about Mayweather from now on.

I read that at ESPN in an essay about Rocky...But I have used the Mayweather and Calzaghe records as examples of how one can place too much emphasis on being undefeated...

Would have been interesting to see how Marciano would have
done had he stuck around...though it was clear he had done
all he wanted and his heart just was not in it any more.

He trained so hard, milked so much out of his body and gave us
some damned great moments in the ring, its only fair he should
retire when he did.

I think had he fought Patterson in 1956, that Floyd would have
won the fight. The speed and youth would have made the
difference, both guys would have made it a good bout.

Liston would have beaten him, especially had it occured around
58-59, Liston was too good then and Marciano would have been
just that bit over the line of peakness.

As much as I want him to win...I can not imagine Patterson beating
Liston in the 1950s.

Wow, somebody believes Floyd could have won. I think so as well, not because Rocky wasn't a great champion, but that Floyd was better than sometimes he is given credit for.

I'm not sure how these two would fare today as they were Cruiserweights really, and though I respect Floyd (he made history as did Marciano) it may have been good for his health that he didn't get the nod he deserved over Ellis. Frazier would have been waiting for him.

Sadly I think Frazier would have blown him away, after
some brief exciting moments in a short fight.

I think he deserves the win against Ellis and Quarry :),
but I think at the end of those victories (Ali, Frazier) were
men who at that time would have beaten him.

If he fought Liston in the late 60s I think he may have very
well of won.

observer1 wrote:

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:

hoodsyeahright wrote:I must admit I have Liston in my top 8, but I dont have Rocky. For what it's worth and in no particular order - Ali, Holmes, Foreman, Liston, Frazier, Lewis, Johnson, Louis.

1) Muhammad Ali

2) Jack Johnson

3) Joe Louis

4) Rocky Marciano

5) Jack Dempsey

6) George Foreman

7) Larry Holmes

8 ) Joe Frazier

9) Lennox Lewis

10) Evander Holyfield

11) Mike Tyson

12) Sonny Liston

Hmm intresting..

You actually rate 185lbs Marciano and Dempsey higher than 220-240lbs monsters like Foreman, Tyson, Lewis, Frazier ?

Only Lewis in that group weighed over 220 lbs at their peak. Frazier weighed 205.

Dempsey destroyed the skilled super Heavyweights that he faced . . often in under a round.

I would bet large amounts of cash a prime Dempsey demolishes Klitschko in under 3 rounds.

dempseyfire wrote:quote="observer1"]

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:

hoodsyeahright wrote:I must admit I have Liston in my top 8, but I dont have Rocky. For what it's worth and in no particular order - Ali, Holmes, Foreman, Liston, Frazier, Lewis, Johnson, Louis.

1) Muhammad Ali

2) Jack Johnson

3) Joe Louis

4) Rocky Marciano

5) Jack Dempsey

6) George Foreman

7) Larry Holmes

8 ) Joe Frazier

9) Lennox Lewis

10) Evander Holyfield

11) Mike Tyson

12) Sonny Liston

Hmm intresting..

You actually rate 185lbs Marciano and Dempsey higher than 220-240lbs monsters like Foreman, Tyson, Lewis, Frazier ?

Only Lewis in that group weighed over 220 lbs at their peak. Frazier weighed 205.

Dempsey destroyed the skilled super Heavyweights that he faced . . often in under a round.

I would bet large amounts of cash a prime Dempsey demolishes Klitschko in under 3 rounds.[/quote]
_____________


i have little doubt when i say Marciano and Dempsey would demolish Klitschko ad clean up the HW division today.

I rate them, but not higher than the the likes of Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Tyson, lewis, Holyfield, Liston, Holmes, Spinks, Bowe, Johnson etc.

I personally feel they would be out of their depth

I'm looking forward to the time when Klitschko and the other champions are demolished by a new Tyson, Frazier, Foreman etc.

Even the alphabet champs of the 80's had more going for them than this current lot. In my opinion it's been terrible for ages, but who remembers when the 2 Heavyweight Champions were Bruno and Seldon? Now that really was awful!

I loved the 1970's contenders - oh for another Shavers, Quarry, Lyle, Norton etc etc

observer1 wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:quote="observer1"]

hoodsyeahright wrote:I must admit I have Liston in my top 8, but I dont have Rocky. For what it's worth and in no particular order - Ali, Holmes, Foreman, Liston, Frazier, Lewis, Johnson, Louis.

1) Muhammad Ali

2) Jack Johnson

3) Joe Louis

4) Rocky Marciano

5) Jack Dempsey

6) George Foreman

7) Larry Holmes

8 ) Joe Frazier

9) Lennox Lewis

10) Evander Holyfield

11) Mike Tyson

12) Sonny Liston

Hmm intresting..

You actually rate 185lbs Marciano and Dempsey higher than 220-240lbs monsters like Foreman, Tyson, Lewis, Frazier ?

Only Lewis in that group weighed over 220 lbs at their peak. Frazier weighed 205.

Dempsey destroyed the skilled super Heavyweights that he faced . . often in under a round.

I would bet large amounts of cash a prime Dempsey demolishes Klitschko in under 3 rounds.[/quote]
_____________


i have little doubt when i say Marciano and Dempsey would demolish Klitschko ad clean up the HW division today.

I rate them, but not higher than the the likes of Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Tyson, lewis, Holyfield, Liston, Holmes, Spinks, Bowe, Johnson etc.

I personally feel they would be out of their depth[/quote]

SPINKS over Dempsey and Marciano?