BoxRec

Seems so many of you are remarkably keen to heavily criticse Joe Calzaghe, and yet have nothing but praise for Peter Buckley!

OK, Calzaghe showboats a bit, and the man whom he travelled to America to beat 118-109 on all three scorecard wasn't quite as sharp as he was when he was the undisputed best in the world, but for crying out loud, Calzaghe has achieved a massive ammount.

I guess if Calzaghe had spent his career losing and padding out undercards he would have been considered a REAL boxing hero?

It's never that black and white. Not like anyone here is calling Joe a crap boxer, not even an average boxer! Most people agree that he is, and has been, a fantastic talent.

But this is an internet forum, surely it is expected to have some debate and throw around some criticism? Would be a bit dull if we just slapped everyone's backs constantly.

People are always more likely to give harsher criticism to those that show elevated talent. Born out of the frustration of not seeing them truly reach their full potential, in accolades at least - we are fans after all. Wouldn't be any point in berating Peter Buckley for not being a better fighter and challenging for top titles, just an unrealistic demand. However, knocking Calzaghe for not testing himself against the toughest competition, back when they were in their respective primes, is surely a valid criticism.

True that some big fights didn't come off for Joe, the Ottke and prime Jones fights for example but as it's been mentioned before Hopkins pulled out of a fight in 2002 and demanded more money, now if Joe did this people would be up in arms on here saying "how dare he" and "greedy" and so on. No fighter in the history of the sport has ALWAYS fought the best available opposition, look at Floyd Jr. as an example, the man is called a legend yet has only beaten one great fighter(semi-retired DLH), wins over Judah, Castillo and Corrales are all good but the man blatantly ran away from Cotto, Williams and Margarito which is why I don't class floyd as a legend, I don't class Calzaghe or Hatton as legends either. The word "legend" is thrown around far too much these days, to me a legend is somebody whose name and achievements reach everywhere in the world which none of the 3 mentioned have ever done.

i think a big part of the problem is that joe doesn't come across well in the media

he often appears to be arrogant and frequently contradicts himself

dismissing roy jones in his autobiography and then fighting him years later does not look good

Unfortunately when you come to a site like this (and for what it's worth I think this is a fantastic site) you are going to get the good, the bad and the ugly.

On the matter at hand. Joe performed superbly last night and is more than entitled to bask in the adulation of the general public. However when ranking him amongst his contempories and indeed the all time greats, certain uncomfortable questions must be asked. For example - why did Calzaghe take a fight with a man that he had publicly dismissed as being "washed up" two years ago? Or, why did he languish in Britain for nearly a decade fending off mid-tier opposition when there were so many legitimate threats hovering around his weightclass (e.g Roy Jones, B Hop, Dariusz Mikhalczewski , Sven Ottke, Glen Johnson, Antonio Tarver, Anthony Mundine, Carl Froch, Clinton Woods). Why is he so reluctant to commit to rematches? Why have his perfomances been so inconsistant? Why has he pulled out of so many fights? Would he still be unbeaten if he had gone to the US earlier in his career? Need I go on?

Personally I am a big Calzaghe supporter and am not unduly concerned about the aforementioned questionmarks because in light off his recent career, I am firmly convinced that abilitywise he is up there with the elite. Additionally I love the fearless aggression with which he competes because no matter who stands in front of him, you can always guarantee that he will take the battle right to their doorstep with an avalanche of punches. But, to go down as an all time great, skill and courage only form part of the nessacary criteria. It's as much about long-term accomplishment and in that reguard Calzaghe has still got quite a lot of ground to cover before he is mentioned in the same breath as the likes of Thomas Hearns and Sugar Ray Leonard by the afficianados

Its only through correct analysis of a fighters contemporaries that we can assess his contemporary impact - ideally through competition with eachother, which is why the p4p ratings are sometimes controversial.

In an all time sense, they need to be compared with the challenges other fighters faced.

Robinson rematched Turpin among others, fought La Motta six times

Calzaghe rematched Reid? er, no... Mario Veit, the only fighter he has fought more than once.

That isnt the extent of the argument as Im sure all realise, but its an illustration

There are lots of positives to Joe Calzaghe. LOADS.
His talent is better than his middle cv suggests - which in any other case would be praise not criticism - he has fought opponents that could have been eschewed in favour of more dangerous fighters. So has everyone else, but that doesnt mean you cant talk about Calzaghes specifics

Precisely.

Leonard crammed more into a four year stretch than Calzaghe did in his entire career. Benitez, Duran, Hearns, nuff said! All in their primes, all at weights which suited them, all of whom went on to do great things.

Leonard might not be unbeaten, but considering who he faced, it's no wonder.

For me it's just such a shame we have this Calzaghe now. Since the Lacy fight he seems to have finally realised how good he is. The pull outs have stopped, negotiations aren't breaking down and he is finally fighting a very good level of opponent. Lacy - Bika - Manfredo - Kessler - Hopkins - Jones Jnr is by far the best run of results he has had.

I think a lot of people are reacting to people calling Calzaghe one of the greatest because he hasn't had it all that tough when you are making comparisons with fighters from other generations. He has been a great fighter, but because he is unbeaten, nobody really knows how great. A few more Kessler type fights (the only rematch that should be considered imo as it was a tough, entertaining fight against his toughest opponent) should have been enough to make everyone happy...but i'm sure some still wouldn't be

Go on the 'Boxeo Mundial' forum, I can't understand them on there.

Lenny wrote:For me it's just such a shame we have this Calzaghe now. Since the Lacy fight he seems to have finally realised how good he is. The pull outs have stopped, negotiations aren't breaking down and he is finally fighting a very good level of opponent. Lacy - Bika - Manfredo - Kessler - Hopkins - Jones Jnr is by far the best run of results he has had.

I think a lot of people are reacting to people calling Calzaghe one of the greatest because he hasn't had it all that tough when you are making comparisons with fighters from other generations. He has been a great fighter, but because he is unbeaten, nobody really knows how great. A few more Kessler type fights (the only rematch that should be considered imo as it was a tough, entertaining fight against his toughest opponent) should have been enough to make everyone happy...but i'm sure some still wouldn't be

Definitely. To be honest, up to 2006, I never even thought to imagine him in fights with the top guys as the excpectations he'd set were so low.

When he fully "came out", it was with the American seniors tour and that's no big deal.

Basically, he gets so much flak because he was/is capable of so much more than he what he has already achieved. He has/had the ability to be considered a legend but instead falls short due his unwillingness to take risks in his career. Still he's a great, great fighter and will be missed when he's gone.

whicker wrote:Seems so many of you are remarkably keen to heavily criticse Joe Calzaghe, and yet have nothing but praise for Peter Buckley!

OK, Calzaghe showboats a bit, and the man whom he travelled to America to beat 118-109 on all three scorecard wasn't quite as sharp as he was when he was the undisputed best in the world, but for crying out loud, Calzaghe has achieved a massive ammount.

I guess if Calzaghe had spent his career losing and padding out undercards he would have been considered a REAL boxing hero?

I agree - although it is well known that brits love to bash winners. ALso this forum has an anti-white feel to it - so Calzaghe and Hatton get criticised without end, but Lennox Lewis, Hamed etc are treated much more fairly.

As to the showboating - I did n't like it at the time. But a friend pointed out very reasonable that Roy Jones constantly belittles opponents and showboated to the extreme so he was having tos allow his own medicine.

Nobody here hates Calzaghe.

The Criticism is fair and warranted. Calzaghe had the talent to becmoe a legend in Boxing, but he is not. He never went Prime v Prime with a legend. There were the likes of RJJ and Hopkins in their Primes and Calzaghe should have made the move to the US THEN. Instead he chose to wait until they got a few losses and were about to retire.

Whether this is Calzaghe's fault or Frank's fault, i dont know, but Calzaghe wasted his talent by fighting in half-empty stadiums defending his WBO "World Title" when he coulc have gone Prime V Prime against a Legend. He has never done this.

Even Hatton did this gainst Mayweather, he may have lost, but he did it.

E wrote:
I agree - although it is well known that brits love to bash winners. ALso this forum has an anti-white feel to it - so Calzaghe and Hatton get criticised without end, but Lennox Lewis, Hamed etc are treated much more fairly.

As to the showboating - I did n't like it at the time. But a friend pointed out very reasonable that Roy Jones constantly belittles opponents and showboated to the extreme so he was having tos allow his own medicine.

E, Anti-White Feel?
You are one of the most prejudice and ignorant posters on here, and you have the idiocy to say this forum has an Anti-White feel?

Oh the Irony.

There's not getting away from the fact that Calzaghe has beaten a lot of crap (sorry, but in terms of world class challengers, a lot of his challengers fall into that catergory. Good fighters at their level, but poor world title challengers). From boxing Lacy the quality has no doubt improved and he's been encountering all the difficulties you expect to face when meeting top notch challenges....and this takes a toll.

So if he'd been beating the standard of Kessler, Hopkins and to a lesser extent Lacy, throughout his reign the number of wins would most probably have been less and the defeats would no doubt have occurred too.

That doesn't have to be a problem, but the route he was taken down didn't entertain the Kessler's and Hopkins until the last few fights of his career and there's no escaping that.

Calzaghe, joke fighter, is ducking Frotch and Dawson

Hatton, joke fighter, never been involved in a real fight in his life, is ducking Junior Witter

Khan, people were metaphorically dancing in the streets when he got beat


compared to

Peter Buckley, "how dare they say that...!

Richard Williams "never got the chance he deserved"

Junior Witter "disgracefully ducked by Hatton"


Add that to people saying they have no interest in Jones - Calzaghe, but are positively salivating over the Dean Francis - Zolt Erdei clash in 3 months time.....

Its just a bunch of clueless ne'er-do-well believing that by criticizing anyone and anything popular and lauding the mediocre, they are somehow part of the internet boxing hardcore scene.


proles...

KG, you know that Calzaghe-Jones is no big deal to anyone but Calzaghe's and Jones' bank balances. It's frustrating not to see all that ability in a tense boxing match vs someone with a chance of winning.

Jones had been blown away by Johnson and Tarver already, so what was the big deal again? Big deal it was, with HBO PPV, words like "legendary" used freely, Bunce hyperventiating.

Francis-Erdei has Inkin-Balzsay on the undercard, two skilled, relatively young fighters for a world title. Balzsay's a nice southpaw who hits with the knuckle, and could be a solid champ for a while.

So all the ppl who criticise Calzaghe are the ones who laud Buckley, Williams and Witter? Are you not at risk of gross generalising. There are many issues at stake, journeymen - that are needed to bad out clean sheets records - being slagged off, a British fighter who missed many good British fights due to proliferation of belts, big British fights beig avoided etc.

Get this through your skull, a lot of ppl just want to see good fights, rather than big names in one-sided or tepid marriages of convenience.

Autobarn wrote:KG, you know that Calzaghe-Jones is no big deal to anyone but Calzaghe's and Jones' bank balances. It's frustrating not to see all that ability in a tense boxing match vs someone with a chance of winning.

You see my lad, it was a big deal, people at work were talking about it, my family and friends mentioned it to me, the papers covered the fight extensively as did the tv and radio.

However, if you get all your news and views from this forum, i can see why you might think it wasn't a big deal

Jones had been blown away by Johnson and Tarver already, so what was the big deal again? Big deal it was, with HBO PPV, words like "legendary" used freely, Bunce hyperventiating.

Jones is, by any streach of the imagination a legendary fighter, yes he is past his best, but that doesnt make the fight go from "all time great" to "utterly pointless"

shades of gray

Francis-Erdei has Inkin-Balzsay on the undercard, two skilled, relatively young fighters for a world title. Balzsay's a nice southpaw who hits with the knuckle, and could be a solid champ for a while.

uh huh, Dean Francis has 1 arm and his best win is Tony Oakey, Erdei is a fat version of Ottke, Inkin, and i rarely use this word, ducked Frotch and Balzsay hasnt fought anyone ive ever heard of

That is better than Calzaghe - Jones?

ok

So all the ppl who criticise Calzaghe are the ones who laud Buckley, Williams and Witter? Are you not at risk of gross generalising. There are many issues at stake, journeymen - that are needed to bad out clean sheets records - being slagged off, a British fighter who missed many good British fights due to proliferation of belts, big British fights beig avoided etc.

yes, most of the Calzaghe, Hatton, Khan naysayers are the Witter, Buckly fans. Thats pretty clear

Get this through your skull, a lot of ppl just want to see good fights, rather than big names in one-sided or tepid marriages of convenience.

laughable, so you thought Calzaghe - Jones was tepid?

That, dear boy, is pure gibberish, so when Calzaghe hit the deck and looked wobbly as Jones jumped on him you sat back and bellowed "Get this tepid tripe off my TV, isnt there a Dennis Inkin repeat in Eurosport now??"

Im sure u did, actually

Yes KG, ppl at work were talking about Joe - fighting one of the best ever. Now is it not important to distinguish between the Jones of now, from the Jones of 1994-2003? There is, my friend, a big fcking difference. The ppl that talk about the fight in offices and shops and pubs and trains, do not know this difference.

Is the event enouhg for you? It's not enough for me. I was excited about the Lacy & kessler fights. They were a big deal, seeing super middle get unified vs men in their primes. And this inspired great performances from Joe. Seeing him carry light heavy vs Jones, with all that speed and strength, it was almost depressing that we won't see him carry that form into an exciting fight.

And he won't, because only Bernard Hopkins and God (and Jones, if he'd managed to win 3 more rounds) are big enough to fight Joe Calzaghe, aren't they?

I said Joe-Hopkins was tepid. I've not seen any Inkin replays on Eurosport (I'm excited about Balzsay getting crowned as title holder against a good opponent), but if you want to give me a heads up when there is, I would greatly appreciate it.

Dean Francis was a fighter of great potential. I think you're selling him short. Compare what Calzaghe did to Starie in a WOLRD TITLE fight, to what Francis did in half the time, for a bloody BRITISH TITLE. So it's great to see Deano get his chance after clawing his way back.

Khaosai-Galaxy wrote:Calzaghe, joke fighter, is ducking Frotch and Dawson

Hatton, joke fighter, never been involved in a real fight in his life, is ducking Junior Witter

Khan, people were metaphorically dancing in the streets when he got beat


compared to

Peter Buckley, "how dare they say that...!

Richard Williams "never got the chance he deserved"

Junior Witter "disgracefully ducked by Hatton"


Add that to people saying they have no interest in Jones - Calzaghe, but are positively salivating over the Dean Francis - Zolt Erdei clash in 3 months time.....

Its just a bunch of clueless ne'er-do-well believing that by criticizing anyone and anything popular and lauding the mediocre, they are somehow part of the internet boxing hardcore scene.


proles...

hahahha hit nail on head

Terry D wrote:

Khaosai-Galaxy wrote:Calzaghe, joke fighter, is ducking Frotch and Dawson

Hatton, joke fighter, never been involved in a real fight in his life, is ducking Junior Witter

Khan, people were metaphorically dancing in the streets when he got beat


compared to

Peter Buckley, "how dare they say that...!

Richard Williams "never got the chance he deserved"

Junior Witter "disgracefully ducked by Hatton"


Add that to people saying they have no interest in Jones - Calzaghe, but are positively salivating over the Dean Francis - Zolt Erdei clash in 3 months time.....

Its just a bunch of clueless ne'er-do-well believing that by criticizing anyone and anything popular and lauding the mediocre, they are somehow part of the internet boxing hardcore scene.


proles...

Amusingly irreverent as ever KG, but there are fights out there that are more interesting than Calzaghe-Jones, some featuring fighters few have ever heard of, maybe not from a 'get the documentary team out for these aging superstars' kind of way, but interesting all the same as they are closer to 50-50.

Yeah, proles do fancy more lusty and agricultural fare, while the bourgeoisie like a bit of cerebral entertainment, sometimes you get a mix of both, Hearns-Leonard I for example, and that makes you as happy as a communist in pig-shit, the people's pig-shit. Jones-Calzaghe was not going to be one of those fights.

I was not looking forward to the fight massively, it was not massively competitive either, Jones did put the guy down but you could clearly see him thinking "Shit, this motherf*cker might get up mad and whack me on the chin, and we know what happens then", and spent the rest of the fight boxing accordingly. It was depressingly predictable to all, you aside of course.

I feel like Tim Roth in 'Happy Games' when talking you.

"Ok, I get it."


[Insert 'length' joke here, end it with 'asleep'. Throw in a wank, hang on, it is Moday, throw in two wanks]

don't you mean "Funny Games"?

It was disrespectful to take the piss out of RJJ who is a legend, with so much showboating. I am a big fan of Joes but I didnt like that, and whatever way you look at it, it was wrong.

observer1 wrote:Calzaghe had the talent to becmoe a legend in Boxing

Err...

No he didn't legends are born, not made.

Legends capture the imagination of the public worldwide, something the likes of Calzaghe and others have never done,

Legends - Ali, Chavez, Leonard, Duran, Hearns

Top quality fighters - Calzaghe, Mayweather, Lewis, Pacquiao, McGirt

boxing is a lot less popular than it used to be so it's much harder now to capture the imagination of the public worldwide

Brits love a loser

I think Jones proved he was dangerous, and the KD probably justified making the fight. Jones was a top 7 light heavy, so that means the fight was neither a disgrace nor a superfight, neither complete rubbish nor a big deal.

The positive is that Joe has fought another counter puncher. And learned something.

I'll say what would have been impressive, if Joe had been more like this vs Hopkins.

It's like he's had his career the wrong way round. You're supposed to take out the older names when you're on the way up, and then have the defining fights, vs rival champs, guys in their primes, afterward.