BoxRec

Just how much do we know about the scientific aspect of a person's ability to take a shot? What exactly is it that differs between one man to the next?

On one hand, you have Herbie Hide, who my granny could probably bowl over with a left jab if timed right. Then, on the other, you have someone like Hollyfield, who could be hit flush on with a sledgehammer and still stay upright.

Probably Herbie is not the best example to use here as i believe half of his problems are mental (Klitscko KO'd him with a phantom shot after all). But, given the mind is right and the will is there, why is it that some fighters can take a shot and others (through no fault of their own) simply cannot.

Can anyone refer me to any scientific research on this subject. It would make for interesting reading.

I remember Eubank saying his dentist told him that his jaw was the thickest he had ever seen! Dunno how true that is!
Also it depends on your style of fighting, people like Hamed who leapt into shots always ran the risk of really walking on to one.
Also some fighters really struggle to bite down on their gumshield, if your jaw isn't tense you are in trouble

Its so variable i don't really believe it could be tested scientificly,some guys if you catch them cold will go down easy but catch them when there warm so to speak and you need a sledgehammer.

I know myself , when i was fighting i could spar with a feather fisted featherweight and if i was'nt in the mood every punch would seem to hurt, but next day when i was in the mood , a big punching light heavy could'nt budge me so much of it is mental you could'nt test it.

Same when in the ring i was never stopped but , been put on my arse by punches which did'nt seem hard , never hurt me at all , but yet another fight i've stood and traded bombs that shook me to my toes , and stayed on my feet thinking this is great , absolutly loving it because i knew in my own mind this guy can't hurt me

Coco wrote:I remember Eubank saying his dentist told him that his jaw was the thickest he had ever seen! Dunno how true that is!
Also it depends on your style of fighting, people like Hamed who leapt into shots always ran the risk of really walking on to one.
Also some fighters really struggle to bite down on their gumshield, if your jaw isn't tense you are in trouble

You can put muscle on your body which will help protect you from body shots and its true a half open mouth is definately not a good thing. A heavy jaw may be a help rather than a thin bony one, I dont know. I think if you have been KOd badly it leaves you with a weakness in subsequent fights, be it a chin or temple shot, the body seems to protect itself by closing down if something similar happens again. Some fighters can absorb pain better than others, be it heavy punches or stinging ones around the eyes and ears.We all have different levels of pain threshold. Walking onto shots or being static does mean you will get hit by the full force. Fighters who move well are not only harder to hit, but harder to catch flush with shots so they tend to do much better. Good head movement and a good strong neck helps as well. I would like Scrap to anwer this one, his points would be very interesting.

Coco wrote: Also some fighters really struggle to bite down on their gumshield, if your jaw isn't tense you are in trouble

I would have thought that if your jaw isn't tense it just more likely to be broken. If it moves independently instead of being static and increasing the rotation of the whole head i'd think that would more likely lead to a KO.

coneye wrote:Its so variable i don't really believe it could be tested scientificly,some guys if you catch them cold will go down easy but catch them when there warm so to speak and you need a sledgehammer.

I know myself , when i was fighting i could spar with a feather fisted featherweight and if i was'nt in the mood every punch would seem to hurt, but next day when i was in the mood , a big punching light heavy could'nt budge me so much of it is mental you could'nt test it.

Same when in the ring i was never stopped but , been put on my arse by punches which did'nt seem hard , never hurt me at all , but yet another fight i've stood and traded bombs that shook me to my toes , and stayed on my feet thinking this is great , absolutly loving it because i knew in my own mind this guy can't hurt me

What you say is very true, the mental side plays a very big part. Getting warmed up with exercise not only helps the body but the mind as well and helps you from pulling a muscles. You reminded me of an occasion when I caught a guy stealing from an off license we had years ago. I spoke to him outside and he laid into me with a flurry of punches. Like you I laughed to myself thinking this guy is doing nothing. Then I grabbed him and through him across the pavement. As he got up it was my turn to hit him and he copped it full force. Did us a lot of good, the stealing was getting a bit out of hand up to that point.

Shirow wrote:

Coco wrote: Also some fighters really struggle to bite down on their gumshield, if your jaw isn't tense you are in trouble

I would have thought that if your jaw isn't tense it just more likely to be broken. If it moves independently instead of being static and increasing the rotation of the whole head i'd think that would more likely lead to a KO.

Yeah I reckon you are much more likely to get a broken jaw from an open mouth. Whether having a tense jaw helps to prevent a KO I dont know, if you get hit right its goodnight either way, or it can be.

Shirow wrote:

Coco wrote: Also some fighters really struggle to bite down on their gumshield, if your jaw isn't tense you are in trouble

I would have thought that if your jaw isn't tense it just more likely to be broken. If it moves independently instead of being static and increasing the rotation of the whole head i'd think that would more likely lead to a KO.

I always felt you had to tense up to absorb a shot, KO's often happen when you don't see the shot coming because you are too relaxed

A big factor is concentration and condition.

Shirow wrote:

Coco wrote: Also some fighters really struggle to bite down on their gumshield, if your jaw isn't tense you are in trouble

I would have thought that if your jaw isn't tense it just more likely to be broken. If it moves independently instead of being static and increasing the rotation of the whole head i'd think that would more likely lead to a KO.

But conversely, I'm sure I read in a recent ODLH interview, that he cited biting too hard on his gumshield as a sign of tension and caused him to unnecessarily expend energy.

I know whenver i wear a gumshield (bit of boxing sparring, rugby and now American football) I bite hard and I always get knackered, but that may be my conditioning...

Loynesy wrote:

Shirow wrote:

Coco wrote: Also some fighters really struggle to bite down on their gumshield, if your jaw isn't tense you are in trouble

I would have thought that if your jaw isn't tense it just more likely to be broken. If it moves independently instead of being static and increasing the rotation of the whole head i'd think that would more likely lead to a KO.

But conversely, I'm sure I read in a recent ODLH interview, that he cited biting too hard on his gumshield as a sign of tension and caused him to unnecessarily expend energy.

I know whenver i wear a gumshield (bit of boxing sparring, rugby and now American football) I bite hard and I always get knackered, but that may be my conditioning...

Maybe biting too hard will expend too much energy, but I feel your mouth much be closed and tense to absorb a shot

Got to be a lot about how much your brain shakes against the inside of your skull when you get hit.

it was apparently a trick of the kray brothers ( former amateurs i believe ) to offer you a cigarette then plant one on your jaw when you open your mouth in order to break it.

jeej wrote:Got to be a lot about how much your brain shakes against the inside of your skull when you get hit.

I was thinking something along those lines also DD but being not scientifically minded, did not bother wasting my time, or yours, trying to write anything even remotely sensible in that respect.

If we strip away all the various multitudes, such as neck width, fighting style, current conditioning, mental state, dehydration, warmed up or not etc etc and just assume that one man to the next have all those things as equal............... one still can take a punch and the other cannot.

To be able to read the science of this (in layman's terms) would be fascinating! At least i would find it interesting D

This is just a theory but I also thought the type of face/ jaw structure you have affects how well you take a punch. Look at someone like Thomas Hearns Hearns or even Amir Khan and they have quite thins faces with their jawline in particular being quite narrow and they both have questionable chins. On the other hand someone like De La Hoya has quite a wide, thickset jaw-line and a good chin. But there are exceptions to the rule - some guys with thin jaws have great chins - like Margarito - which is why its just a theory!

mike john wrote:it was apparently a trick of the kray brothers ( former amateurs i believe ) to offer you a cigarette then plant one on your jaw when you open your mouth in order to break it.

sounds like their usual cowardly shenanigans

People get knocked out being hit on the side of the jaw or on the temple as well as the chin. A good hard rabbit punch can do the job as well, so maybe its just the brain rattling inside the skull. As we are all a bit different from each other, some can recover from this shock to the brain better than others. When you think about it boxing is pretty dangerous with the brain being jolted thousands of times in a fighters career from hooks and jabs, never mind the flush shots that put you over. They certainly earn their money with pain and cuts and grueling training and never knowing if they may suffer brain damage. Its a hard way to make a living and only a few make the really big money.

mike john wrote:it was apparently a trick of the kray brothers ( former amateurs i believe ) to offer you a cigarette then plant one on your jaw when you open your mouth in order to break it.

They were total scum. Nobody knows how many people they killed or had others kill for them and because of fear nobody was willing to help the police. With the killing of Jack the Hat McVitie (who was scum himself) the police finally had enough evidence to put them away for life. The Richardsons, not heard of so much were also doing similar things.

Knockouts are caused either by compression, or torsion of the spinal column, which causes a shock to the nervous system, or a concussion caused by accelleration of the brain within the cranium. The other factor is temple shots which are the location of a large nerve bundle much like the solar plexus.

A thick jaw will dampen the shock waves which travel through the jaw to the cranium, and a thick neck will prevent the torsion or compression of the neck (torsion is from hooks and straight shots, compression from uppercuts).

Of all the factors I've seen over the years of watching boxing, a thick and short neck seems to be the main component, think of all the fighters who had cast iron chins, McCall, Tyson, Hagler, they are the prototype.

I think fighters with long necks tend to be more susceptible especially to shots on the top of the head, which bend the neck at an acute angle. The shorter and thicker the neck muscles, the harder it is to produce this effect.

I know that Jonny Owen had an unusually thick jaw bone, but a very thin eggshell like skull, which is why he was able to take big shots, but they produced so much damage to his brain.

WildWaylon wrote:People get knocked out being hit on the side of the jaw or on the temple as well as the chin. A good hard rabbit punch can do the job as well, so maybe its just the brain rattling inside the skull. As we are all a bit different from each other, some can recover from this shock to the brain better than others. When you think about it boxing is pretty dangerous with the brain being jolted thousands of times in a fighters career from hooks and jabs, never mind the flush shots that put you over. They certainly earn their money with pain and cuts and grueling training and never knowing if they may suffer brain damage. Its a hard way to make a living and only a few make the really big money.

Rabbit punches are banned, because the brain stem is highly sensitive to trauma, there are masses of nerve bundles near the surface of the neck, where it joins the brain, and it's easy to damage it and render someone unconscious.

The brain rattling inside the skulls rarely produces unconsciousness, the brain has no nerve endings to feel pain, which is why often fighters feel nothing when the brain is injured until there is a large swelling. Brain injury is cumulative, and it's areas of scarring and cell necrosis which cause the permanent damage fighters exhibit after they retire.

If you watch McCall when he took a pounding from Lewis, you will notice that his bull-like neck stops his head being swung around on it's axis when he takes the shots. He is blasted across the ring at points, but his massive neck muscles transmit the force to his shoulders and through the body.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:If you watch McCall when he took a pounding from Lewis, you will notice that his bull-like neck stops his head being swung around on it's axis when he takes the shots. He is blasted across the ring at points, but his massive neck muscles transmit the force to his shoulders and through the body.

I played a fair bit of rugby as a kid, at hooker, which built my neck up, I like to think I had a solid chin, maybe it helped

WildWaylon wrote:

mike john wrote:it was apparently a trick of the kray brothers ( former amateurs i believe ) to offer you a cigarette then plant one on your jaw when you open your mouth in order to break it.

They were total scum. Nobody knows how many people they killed or had others kill for them and because of fear nobody was willing to help the police. With the killing of Jack the Hat McVitie (who was scum himself) the police finally had enough evidence to put them away for life. The Richardsons, not heard of so much were also doing similar things.

erm, cheers for that mate. i wasnt bigging them up or anything!

ALI wrote:Just how much do we know about the scientific aspect of a person's ability to take a shot? What exactly is it that differs between one man to the next?

On one hand, you have Herbie Hide, who my granny could probably bowl over with a left jab if timed right. Then, on the other, you have someone like Hollyfield, who could be hit flush on with a sledgehammer and still stay upright.

Probably Herbie is not the best example to use here as i believe half of his problems are mental (Klitscko KO'd him with a phantom shot after all). But, given the mind is right and the will is there, why is it that some fighters can take a shot and others (through no fault of their own) simply cannot.

Can anyone refer me to any scientific research on this subject. It would make for interesting reading.

The book Four Kings also mentions that Marvin Hagler had an abnormally thick skull when he was given a brain scan

mike john wrote:

WildWaylon wrote:

mike john wrote:it was apparently a trick of the kray brothers ( former amateurs i believe ) to offer you a cigarette then plant one on your jaw when you open your mouth in order to break it.

They were total scum. Nobody knows how many people they killed or had others kill for them and because of fear nobody was willing to help the police. With the killing of Jack the Hat McVitie (who was scum himself) the police finally had enough evidence to put them away for life. The Richardsons, not heard of so much were also doing similar things.

erm, cheers for that mate. i wasnt bigging them up or anything!

No, I realise that. Just adding to what you had written.