BoxRec

Just wondering what people thought about the Boxing Monthly - I thought the Graham Houston article on the DLH vs Pacquaio was a little OTT against DLH. "Chickens come home to roost" - a real nice way to describe a world champion who has fought the likes of Trinidad, Mosley, Quartey, Vargas, Hopkins - yes might not have beaten all of these, but fought them.

Then it describes the fight and I think the comparisons of it with Leonard vs Norris and Ali vs Holmes is spot on, but then in next paragraph says - In truth Oscar didn't EVEN go down fighting, not in the time honoured sense" - implying the Ali, Leonard etc did. Ali vs Holmes ending was almost a replica to this fight and Leonard just survived at the end and lasted the course.

The picture claims that the likes of Hernandez, Leija, and Molina were not just outweighed but faded when DLH fought them. I disagree that they were faded, but were outsized.

My primary criticism of the article is the nothing that DLH didn't care, didn't really try just accepted defeat. There was no real proof of that. He didn't have it in him, doesn't mean he was happy with that.

i dont think the manner of oscar's defeat was anything to do with the mental side of things, he just boxed like a weight-drained 35-year-old.

lowersmiths wrote:i dont think the manner of oscar's defeat was anything to do with the mental side of things, he just boxed like a weight-drained 35-year-old.

Yes, I remember the BM article on the Leonard vs Norris fight and it was a fantastic piece just plighting the sad end of a great fighter who had enhanced the sport, been a good role model, and raised the profile of the sport. I was hoping for something similar here.

Yes, DLH has fought his fair share of "smaller" guys, although it seemed acceptable with the likes of Gonzales, Leija etc fought for titles against different guys at the same or higher weight categories - but there was no reference to when he was the naturally smaller guy - Quartey, Vargas, Mayorga, Hopkins, Sturm, Whittikar, Trinidad amongst others, and yes DLH isn't in the same bracket as SRL when we are talking P4P - but I still think the article went a bit OTT and certainly didn't congratulate Manny alot.

I have thought, if GBP purchasing a rival publication has produced a bit of a back lash amongst all things GBP. A few years ago there was an article on the emergence of GBP which implied that these are doing it "right" and Arum/King et al are being critical due to them being threatened. Now it is different.

I am not suggesting they are alone in their views, for example DG on here certainly shares their views and a few more on the DLH vs Pacquiao match up itself. I just thought to suggest DLH didn't go out fighting was a bit extreme, he couldn't... he had nothing left, he was on empty for the last two rounds and I think the fact that he lost a round 10-8 on all three judges card without going down, or taking a knee, shows the heart he had.

stujones wrote:I am not suggesting they are alone in their views, for example DG on here certainly shares their views and a few more on the DLH vs Pacquiao match up itself. I just thought to suggest DLH didn't go out fighting was a bit extreme, he couldn't... he had nothing left, he was on empty for the last two rounds and I think the fact that he lost a round 10-8 on all three judges card without going down, or taking a knee, shows the heart he had.

u can't take anything serious from that halfwit.

One man's dog is another man's deity - so it goes. That's why this sport works for us all.

BM should of included Beibut Shumenov in their prospects.

Its hard on DLH - He started at fricking super-feather. Not everyone of PBF, MOsley, Quartrey, Tito, Hopkins et al could hav ebeen smaller or older....

I have no sympathy for Oscar at all. He attempted to cheat his way into becoming P4P champ by fighting a super featherweight (one fight at lightweight does not a lightweight make), there are well documented concerns regarding the calibration of the scales for the fight also, and it all blew up in his face.

When I heard Ian Darke - who I have the greatest respect for, as I do Graham, obviously - compare the spectacle to Ali losing to Holmes I have to wonder. The difference for me is that Ali matched himself hard, against the best fighter in his OWN DIVISION, and it went wrong, whereas Oscar did the exact opposite, he gave himself every possible advantage and karma called hard.

I agree with above two, Oscar was never all he was cracked up to be. Good to see Eric Morales say what a lot of people were thinking, that Oscar deserved one for his performance in the Hop fight. Or a Golden Globe at least.

stujones wrote:

lowersmiths wrote:i dont think the manner of oscar's defeat was anything to do with the mental side of things, he just boxed like a weight-drained 35-year-old.

Yes, I remember the BM article on the Leonard vs Norris fight and it was a fantastic piece just plighting the sad end of a great fighter who had enhanced the sport, been a good role model, and raised the profile of the sport. I was hoping for something similar here.

Yes, DLH has fought his fair share of "smaller" guys, although it seemed acceptable with the likes of Gonzales, Leija etc fought for titles against different guys at the same or higher weight categories - but there was no reference to when he was the naturally smaller guy - Quartey, Vargas, Mayorga, Hopkins, Sturm, Whittikar, Trinidad amongst others, and yes DLH isn't in the same bracket as SRL when we are talking P4P - but I still think the article went a bit OTT and certainly didn't congratulate Manny alot.

I have thought, if GBP purchasing a rival publication has produced a bit of a back lash amongst all things GBP. A few years ago there was an article on the emergence of GBP which implied that these are doing it "right" and Arum/King et al are being critical due to them being threatened. Now it is different.

I am not suggesting they are alone in their views, for example DG on here certainly shares their views and a few more on the DLH vs Pacquiao match up itself. I just thought to suggest DLH didn't go out fighting was a bit extreme, he couldn't... he had nothing left, he was on empty for the last two rounds and I think the fact that he lost a round 10-8 on all three judges card without going down, or taking a knee, shows the heart he had.

Good points.

I don't care how much money he has, how old he is or what weight he is - he has a fighter's heart.

A subtext here is had Oscar pulled it off, he'd have been marching round proclaiming himself to be the saviour of Mexican boxing's reputation, given Pacman's wins over Barrera, Morales, Marquez etc.

There is a God - and he isn't some repugnant cheesy-grinned weight cheat who wants to turn boxing into a franchise industry.

Fact is the Ant, there are NO stars around. Larry Merchant did a good piece a couple of years ago as a preview looking at the next generation of stars based on talent.... and Amir Khan was featured prominantly... I think the 4 he selected were Khan, Mares (GBP), Berto (GBP) and Povetkin.

When is the last time King / Arum created a star from Scratch - Cotto (with Arum?).... well that was before GBP started.

Yes, I don't like the recycling of Hopkins, Barrera, Mosley etc... however, they are still the best as shown recently when Pavlik fought Hopkins.

There is a couple of very nice prospects/champions that have been on GBP books from the start - give the promotion some time. We are all applauding how Hennessey has had a world champion, at the crest of stardum after a relatively short time as a promoter. Well GBP have done it quicker with a far more known commodity - Berto. They also have alot of fighters who regularly show on these "shitty" PPV's aswell as on Telefutura who are getting exposure - Escabedo, Mares, Ortiz, Jacobs etc etc - are they ready for title fights - nope. So untill they are, let the old guard still showcase what they have.

Look what happened to the Heavyweight devision when the Lennox retired, Pavlik isn't good enough to carry Hopkins' jock strap - so why should he be proclaimed as "the man" when clearly he isn't.

No stars? So the mega outdoor crowds of a Hatton or Calzaghe, the financial pull of PBF, the growing commercial power of Pacman, these are due to what exactly? LACK of starpower?

hitman_hatton1 wrote:

stujones wrote:I am not suggesting they are alone in their views, for example DG on here certainly shares their views and a few more on the DLH vs Pacquiao match up itself. I just thought to suggest DLH didn't go out fighting was a bit extreme, he couldn't... he had nothing left, he was on empty for the last two rounds and I think the fact that he lost a round 10-8 on all three judges card without going down, or taking a knee, shows the heart he had.

u can't take anything serious from that halfwit.

Pot, kettle, black

Glyn Leach wrote:No stars? So the mega outdoor crowds of a Hatton or Calzaghe, the financial pull of PBF, the growing commercial power of Pacman, these are due to what exactly? LACK of starpower?

Yes, all established before GBP started. Hatton was selling the MEN long before GBP.... where are the NEW stars - the 21/22 year olds - coming through, where are the American/Mexican stars.

Hang on anyway - who co-promoted the Hatton vs Lazcano mega event? who contributed to the growing commercial power of Pacman, and who also helped JC break America - GPB.

Ant Evans wrote:Exactly, Oscar again stacked the deck, the scales, everything to get himself a win over a "name" for the first time since 2002 and - again - it blew up in his face.

And - again - he quit like a bitich. Only this time without the Ricky Martin impression on the canvas ala his quit job v Hopkins.

So Ricardo Mayorga isn't a name now?

I did find one thing funny about the issue.... the appraisal of the Tyson Fury debit which mentioned 'he's shown he can match hand speed with a cruiser', or words to that effect.... did the poor mope they fed to him actually get a punch off?

The reason why boxing is the way it is at the moment is because younger, hungrier fighters are not getting their chances and we are being fed the same old recycled garbage because these days people only seem interested in big name, big money fights no matter how washed up the fighters in question are.

The days where we see a young, hungry for glory fighter who happens to be relatively unknown outside his own country(like Lloyd Honeyghan for example) travel over to the superstar and rip the title away from him are long gone. Mainly because those fights don't make any money, these days younger fighters just pick up the vacant alphabet belts which have been dropped by the big names who have no interest in fighting them and then get derided as no-marks etc. by supposed "experts" and the same experts are the ones who are going to be whinging when all the superstars have retired and nobody is there to take the place.

This whole concept of GBP co-promotion is one of the biggest myths in boxing. GBP are like a dog with a full bladder, running round pissing on everything saying "we were here, we were here". Their actual involvement in the Manchester show was totally minimal, Frank Maloney put that together. And what a good job GBP did of co-promoting Haye-Barrett - two-for-one ticket offers to get even a half full hall! Hatton-Malignaggi - papered house, free hotel rooms with tickets. Another promotional masterpiece. GBP tried to attach themselves to Jones-Calzaghe but Jones told them where to go.

GBP jump on trains, fact. Calzaghe would not have been in America at all had he not had big outdoor crowds vs Manfredo and Kessler. Warren did the work for those and he also provided the venue for Hopkins-Calzaghe, which was one of HBO's lowest-ever viewed boxing shows - nice work GBP.

As regards Pacman, the vast, vast, vast bulk of the responsibility for his success is due to Bob Arum, obviously. GBP no more created Pacman than Mayweather jr created Hatton.

MatthewS wrote:I did find one thing funny about the issue.... the appraisal of the Tyson Fury debit which mentioned 'he's shown he can match hand speed with a cruiser', or words to that effect.... did the poor mope they fed to him actually get a punch off?

good point lol

Glyn Leach wrote:This whole concept of GBP co-promotion is one of the biggest myths in boxing. GBP are like a dog with a full bladder, running round pissing on everything saying "we were here, we were here". Their actual involvement in the Manchester show was totally minimal, Frank Maloney put that together. And what a good job GBP did of co-promoting Haye-Barrett - two-for-one ticket offers to get even a half full hall! Hatton-Malignaggi - papered house, free hotel rooms with tickets. Another promotional masterpiece. GBP tried to attach themselves to Jones-Calzaghe but Jones told them where to go.

GBP jump on trains, fact. Calzaghe would not have been in America at all had he not had big outdoor crowds vs Manfredo and Kessler. Warren did the work for those and he also provided the venue for Hopkins-Calzaghe, which was one of HBO's lowest-ever viewed boxing shows - nice work GBP.

As regards Pacman, the vast, vast, vast bulk of the responsibility for his success is due to Bob Arum, obviously. GBP no more created Pacman than Mayweather jr created Hatton.

And I accept this, but tell me a guy under the age of 24 that is going to set the boxing world alight that is being held back.

Calzaghe was in his 30's before GBP had started, Hatton approaching his peak, as was Pacquiao.

Where are the NEW stars.... Khan?

stujones wrote:

Ant Evans wrote:Exactly, Oscar again stacked the deck, the scales, everything to get himself a win over a "name" for the first time since 2002 and - again - it blew up in his face.

And - again - he quit like a bitich. Only this time without the Ricky Martin impression on the canvas ala his quit job v Hopkins.

So Ricardo Mayorga isn't a name now?

What sort of name though? What is he best known for? He's a cartoon bad guy that old fighters use as a marketing tool for their totally uninteresting fights. 'Old Ricardo, he'll have a fag, slag a few people off, god love him.' That's how sad fighting Mayorga is. You don't achieve anything by fighting Mayorga.

And regarding your point about stars, you said "No stars", you mentioned nothing about new stars, that's why I answered as I did. Don't change the goalposts.

banjo wrote:The reason why boxing is the way it is at the moment is because younger, hungrier fighters are not getting their chances and we are being fed the same old recycled garbage because these days people only seem interested in big name, big money fights no matter how washed up the fighters in question are.

The days where we see a young, hungry for glory fighter who happens to be relatively unknown outside his own country(like Lloyd Honeyghan for example) travel over to the superstar and rip the title away from him are long gone. Mainly because those fights don't make any money, these days younger fighters just pick up the vacant alphabet belts which have been dropped by the big names who have no interest in fighting them and then get derided as no-marks etc. by supposed "experts" and the same experts are the ones who are going to be whinging when all the superstars have retired and nobody is there to take the place.

Yes, but name me a fighter - Berto - well he is a champion.... Khan? Seriously want to see Khan vs Marquez now? Prescott maybe, but what has he done signing for a relatively un heard of promoter.

Look what happend to the two next big things - Taylor and Pavlik - Taylor championship reign turned into a damp squid, and Pavlik just got outclassed in a fight that was supposed to be the crowning of the new star.

Do you really want to see the Escobedo vs Pacquiao?

Scoobydoo vs Pacquiao? Is that chief support to Oscar vs Laila Ali?

Damn that Richard Shafter is good ...

Glyn Leach wrote:

stujones wrote:

Ant Evans wrote:Exactly, Oscar again stacked the deck, the scales, everything to get himself a win over a "name" for the first time since 2002 and - again - it blew up in his face.

And - again - he quit like a bitich. Only this time without the Ricky Martin impression on the canvas ala his quit job v Hopkins.

So Ricardo Mayorga isn't a name now?

What sort of name though? What is he best known for? He's a cartoon bad guy that old fighters use as a marketing tool for their totally uninteresting fights. 'Old Ricardo, he'll have a fag, slag a few people off, god love him.' That's how sad fighting Mayorga is. You don't achieve anything by fighting Mayorga.

And regarding your point about stars, you said "No stars", you mentioned nothing about new stars, that's why I answered as I did. Don't change the goalposts.

Well I responded to Ant's post about GBP "poaching" existing stars and I talked about Larry Merchant piece on new stars and mentioned the 4 stars Larry predicted - 2 GBP promoted fighters were mentioned as well as Khan and Povetkin. So my entire post was about new stars, in a response to a post about that GBP doesn't make new stars - no goal post changed there.

Ricardo Mayorga, might not be elite but he was a belt holder at the time. He was the champ. Alot of this edition praises Froch for winning the VACANT WBC title against a good fighter, but with no wins in world class - a big achievement (and rightfully so)... but when DLH beats the actual belt holder, who had wins in world class, was not that many years before was in P4P lists - well "you don't achieve anything".