BoxRec

hey all

does anyone have any articles or any info that they have come
across on the training methods of early prize fighters....

men like Tom Molineaux, Tom Cribb, James Figg etc..

How they trained, what they did specifically etc leading up to
the fight...

Even John L Sullivan...


Thanks again

kym

I know grappling was one of the main key elements of boxing then, as far as anything else goes, I cant be for certain, though I imagine it wasnt much different than the early 20th century with Fitzsimmons and Corbett and Jeffries training; I imagine sparring was the main thing, and road work.

Ta mate..

I notice when I see guys like Flynn, Gibbons, and even Jeffries
you see some Greco in their fights.

I just can not imagine getting away with a two on one grip
in modern boxing, let alone MMA these days.

But good watching in any case...all seem to have decent hip
mobility and square them up in the clinch...would be hard to
take down ;)

I could only imagine the sparring that went into these fights back then. Today guys may box 50 rounds in a gym, for a 12 round fight. Back then, in the day and age of bouts lasting for several hours on end, I cant even imagine. Jeffries and the rest, though they were of early Queensbury times, had to of boxed 100 rounds or more in a weeks time just to get prepared for an actual straight out fight scheduled for 45 rounds.

But I can not imagine the rounds being that intense ...

for example..the longest wrestling match went for 12 hrs in
the 1912 Olympics...nothing happened...very few take down
attempts, not much points scored...maybe like a soccer game
that went on for a day.

So they decided to limit the time periods and add passivity
penalties to wrestling their after to make it faster and more
intense and more GRUELLING>

MMA for example..the longers MMA fight was between Helio
and Santana (?) that went for 3hrs 45mins...it was a lay
a thon in the guard...maybe some kidney kicks, maybe some
light taps..maybe some talking and lots of sweating in the gi...
I have the HL of this fight on film....boring.

Helio and Carlos had plenty of other 2hr long fights...nothing
happened..they get a sub late in the fight.

Now...what makes boxing any different to these fights ? what
makes everyone assume that the fights over those periods were
intense matches that had more than 10 punches a round ?

We laugh at Akinwande for his clinching with Lewis, but that
was accepted then...or even Bruno (who actually had a Greco
coach pre Tyson). yet these fights are considered boring,
and cowardly. BUt people sit back and romanticise over the old
timers and their 100 round slug and hug matches.

From all accounts I have read of Jackson-Corbett it sounds like
it was boring with most the crowd booing and leaving. BUT many
tout this as an epic stalemate worthy of Greek myth.

I believe the old-timers really were practitioners of the phrase "picking your shots". They waited for the right moment, and I imagine alot of their punches were to the body, for the main part, as bare knuckle/skin tight gloved bouts were dangerous to the hands, if too many head shots were connected. So I imagine, for the most part, you are correct in saying nothing much happened in those fights; it really depended on the fighter and the styles...Sullivan never hesitated to belt a man across the jaw, gloves or none, while his opponents were of the old stance and threw punches only when they felt it was the right time; this act of being methodical thinking and action, laid alot of mens downfalls, and still does to this day, depending on circumstances.

Sometimes all the skill in the world makes no damn bit of difference.

And I suppose we get a taste in a way of the London Prize rules when
we watch on YouTube, Kimbo Slice.

The "30 count" and "grappling from waist up" rules Slice does, in a sense resemble the old London Prize Ring rules, but difference between Slice' rules and the actual rules is, a round ended when a man hit the canvas whether he was thrown down or knocked down. Kimbo's set of rules were more or less a 'fight to the finish' set up with someone either winning by their opponent admitting they 'quit' or were knocked out, or completely helpless to the point of not being able to continue.

But...Slice is an excellent example of under the right circumstances, a man can beat this man, etc.

Slice was all but unbeatable (save Sean Gannon) under his rules, and only chalked up a 3-0 record in MMA before getting knocked out by yet another unheralded opponent named Seth Petruzelli. Under Marquis of Queensbury, one would have to expect the same result, had Slice went into it as well.

It is unfortnate that we do not have the footage of mid to late 19th
century training, fights etc...

damned technology.

Confliction in rules, I believe, wasn't so much a 'case proved' that one sports set of rules were better than another. Under London Prize Ring Rules, John L. Sullivan would have more than likely defeated Muhammad Ali, and Ali defeat Sullivan under the Marquis of Queensbury.

I guess the best case in point, to prove this, least imo, was when Royce Gracie returned to the UFC and fought Matt Hughes(?). Gracie, when he first started, was under a set of rules that was more or less no rules, with the exception of no biting. The result? The Brazilian Jui Jitsu expert, mainly fought off his back, pulling his opponents hair holding for dear life and landed as many elbows as he could before he knocked a man out or landed a choke.

Fast forward years later, and albiet he was passed his best, the rules were dramatically altered. No hair pulling, no groin kicks/punches, no fish hooks, only certain elbow and knee shots were allowed, etc....what happened to Gracie? He was defeated in the 1st round. Even at his best, the confliction of rules would have been too much, I believe, for Gracie to have over come.

Hughes would have destroyed Royce under any set of MMA rules.
Royce had not evolved, like everyone else has. MMA like EVERY sport
evolves.

It just seems that many about the place think that boxing is the
only sport that has not.

Even under their own rules, the Gracies have lost to Judo players,
Kimura for example and Lutra Livre fighters during the 80s and
90s.

One can say that Royce lost to Sakuraba under Royces dictated
rules.

Hughes vs Royce would have played out had you have transplanted
that Hughes to a peak Royce under UFC 1 rules.

Hughes is the better athlete and has more tools in his tool box,
like most modern fighters he has all that those in the past had
but that bit more.

Even under their own rules, the Gracies have lost to Judo players,
Kimura for example and Lutra Livre fighters during the 80s and
90s.

I love that old bastard Roberto Leiato, a true professional wrestler

hehehe :) crazy kids

Robinson wrote: MMA like EVERY sport
evolves.

It just seems that many about the place think that boxing is the
only sport that has not.

--- The need to ascribe a scientific theory not fully understood by the scientific community that's still being developed and refined sounds like a cover for someone to talk nonsense about boxing.

You're assumption is that evolution is an improvement is an old one as can be seen in longstanding human bias of the magnificence of the big brained intelligence of me, me, and myself, oh aren't we such the smarty pants compared to all those low brows at the turn of the previous millenniums.

The rules and conditions of boxing have changed. More fights than ever in climate controlled conditions, shorter rds, bigger gloves, less fights, more fights available to be seen via the media with less boxers competing.

Yet as far back as Ben Caunt/Bendigo of the 1840s and Cribb/Molineux in the early 1800s, we see confrontations of size and strength against quickness and cleverness, experience and tactics against explosive youth, public challenges, and cries of foul play and cowardice.

Boxing evolved only in the butchered, misappropriated, fad usage of popular modern culture that knows nothing but the here and now. The great dramas of a fight long well played out before Ali ever bounced around in the ring. These old guys developed their own techniques and styles which you can read about in Bare Fists by Bob Mee. Lot of pre queensbury training issues answered as well.

Broughton

would you be able to let me know any pre Queensbury training
you have uncovered ?

I would appreciate it as you seem to have an interest-knowledge
on this era.

Thank You

Robinson wrote:Broughton

would you be able to let me know any pre Queensbury training
you have uncovered ?

I would appreciate it as you seem to have an interest-knowledge
on this era.

Thank You

You could try putting some effort into it and read a few books on the subject. There are plenty of books about "pre Queensbury" fighters that detail training methods. I know that would require a great deal more effort than watching a 2 minute Youtube video, but you would be surprised how much can be learned from books.

Thanks John L...

I never thought about that...and perhaps just maybe after I had
read up on the topic...would it be ok with you if I did ask say
people that frequented a major boxing forum and see if I could
find anything that they may have come across ?

But...maybe your right Ill just go back to YouTube and dumb
myself up.

Thanks again

Robinson wrote:Thanks John L...

I never thought about that...and perhaps just maybe after I had
read up on the topic...would it be ok with you if I did ask say
people that frequented a major boxing forum and see if I could
find anything that they may have come across ?

But...maybe your right Ill just go back to YouTube and dumb
myself up.

Thanks again

Anytime pal. Glad I could help.

Bare knucklers did a huge amount of roadwork -not necessarily running- but often walking briskly for hours, a sizable number of miles a day. Chopping wood was an almost daily activity for a fighter in training.

Their diet often included dry or stale bread -why I do not know- roasted or boiled red meat and very few vegetables or white meat. A glass of port wine was often part of the diet. Brandy or bourbon were often used in the corners.

Bare knuckles also shaved their heads or wore crewcuts so the opponent wouldn't pull their hair.

Thank you for that enrique.

Appreciated.

amongst the material i am sending there are several comments regarding the training methods used in the early days.this is one I had to hand

1919 article
Strenuous Training of Old-Time
Fighters.

Another interesting phase of
primitive boxing methods was the
amazing systems of training In
vogue then. It represented a "grilling"
equal only to that sustained In
the fight itself. Back in the era of
Deaf Burke we learn that fighters
plodded for miles holding to the
rear of a fast driven cart. This
conditioning stunt ended only when
the pugilist collapsed from sheer exhaustion,
He was then toted back
to his tavern and revived with copious
dashes of cold water, followed
by a glutton's meal of raw beef, ale
and stale bread. What a rumpus
Willard and Dempsey would kick up
at the thought of exchanging their
well ventilated gyms, skipping rope,
punching bags, sparring partners and
motor cars for such a strenuous routine.
So much for progress

Thanks Rob.

It seems that boxing experts and fans were as critical
of the contemporary champions then as they are today.

The past it seems was always greener to a great many.

Simple assumptions can be entertaining, but they can also be frustrating. While it's true that society has advanced, not all things have improved, and the talent in all sports has not necessarily improved. You won't get any argument from me if you say that in general football (US) and basketball have improved greatly over the past decades. It's pretty obvious to anyone who has lived through the past 50 years that these two sports are much more popular, have a higher level of participation and much greater investment in training facilities. Baseball is a little tougher to acknowledge, and if not for the foreign participation, you could easily argue that talent is slowly declining due to the great increases in participation in other sports.

On the other hand, the same logic points to a decline in general boxing talent, as anyone with any knowledge of the sports' past few decades knows, the participation and investment in the sport is a tiny fraction of what it once was. Many who don't agree point to the increased number of "title holders" from other countries as an indication that it's solely a decline in the US, while participation has increased in foreign countries. But I think that participation in most other countries is no better, and in many cases less than it was 40-50 years ago. The decline in US participation is not slight, but quite steep, and affects all weight classes.

Yes, it's true that there have been many advances in sports training, but if few people choose to participate in the sport, then it's nearly impossible for the talent level to improve. It is certainly true that you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear, and unfortunately, there are virtually no top athletes participating in pro boxing.

As far as the topic of this thread is concerned; obviously, there were many training methods utilized throughout history, and much of it is well documented, which is why I suggested reading for yourself so that you get a more complete understanding rather than merely reading the good, but brief descriptions posted in this forum. And of course, you are correct that much of the marathon fights in the bare knuckle period consisted of great lulls in the action, as it would be impossible to fight for 2-3 hours at a brisk pace. However, that hardly indicates that these guys weren't well trained, skilled and amazingly tough.

And of course, you are correct that much of the marathon fights in the bare knuckle period consisted of great lulls in the action, as it would be impossible to fight for 2-3 hours at a brisk pace. However, that hardly indicates that these guys weren't well trained, skilled and amazingly tough.

Throw in the gloves we have today, to those old timers who trained like they did, I bet 10-1 they could fight a 15 rounder easy at a high paced rythem and 5-1 they could do at least 20- 30 rounds at a relatively entertaining pace as well.

As they sipped on that brandy in between rounds.