BoxRec

Patterson met, & took out, an Olympian making his pro debut. Let's take a look at the division at that time, & the eventual champions coming through the amateur ranks, & see if we can make an analagous fight between an Olympic medallist & the champ at that time which might be competitive.

In 1960, Ali got the chocolates in Rome. Johansson & Patterson were the champions that year, at different times. Could Ali have turned pro & beaten prime versions of either men? I think a stunning right from Johansson in the third, & a leaping left hook from Patterson in the seventh, end matters for the eighteen-year-old from Louisville.

In 1964, Frazier took gold. Liston, the champ in early '64, would have utterly demolished him. I don't see him making a competitive pro debut against the 1964 Ali who succeeded Liston, either. He probably gets outgunned to the point of being stopped, as a matter of fact.
Here's the most plausible, interesting one. Ellis was champion. Foreman snatched the gold in Mexico City. Who would you back between a prime Ellis & a nineteen-year-old, pro-debutant in Foreman? I have to favour Ellis to be honest, but with Foreman's power already evident, this is the one scenario which might just work the shock upset...

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Patterson met, & took out, an Olympian making his pro debut. Let's take a look at the division at that time, & the eventual champions coming through the amateur ranks, & see if we can make an analagous fight between an Olympic medallist & the champ at that time which might be competitive.

In 1960, Ali got the chocolates in Rome. Johansson & Patterson were the champions that year, at different times. Could Ali have turned pro & beaten prime versions of either men? I think a stunning right from Johansson in the third, & a leaping left hook from Patterson in the seventh, end matters for the eighteen-year-old from Louisville.

In 1964, Frazier took gold. Liston, the champ in early '64, would have utterly demolished him. I don't see him making a competitive pro debut against the 1964 Ali who succeeded Liston, either. He probably gets outgunned to the point of being stopped, as a matter of fact.

Here's the most plausible, interesting one. Ellis was champion. Foreman snatched the gold in Mexico City. Who would you back between a prime Ellis & a nineteen-year-old, pro-debutant in Foreman? I have to favour Ellis to be honest, but with Foreman's power already evident, this is the one scenario which might just work the shock upset...

Foreman in 69 was WAAY too wild to beat Ellis (who had a pretty good chin despite being small), he'd have to land a perfect punch.

Ellis would have destroyed the amateur Foreman.

The Ali-Johansson scenario, I discussed before. When the supposed sparring session between the two men went down, Ali was 4-0-0 at the time, yet many professed to believe the stories that Ali easily battered around Johansson; somehow getting in their minds that even Ali at that stage in his career would have defeated a world champion/former world champion.

I dont think he would have. I dont think any of the men listed, as great as they were to become, would have defeated the champions at the time when they were amatuers.

The only man I think that would have had a remote chance at beating a worlds champion, would have been Teofilo Stevenson, in 1978-1979 against Muhammad Ali. And even then, jumping from three round bouts to 15 rounds is quite a hell of a jump to make, considering most of Stevenson's opponents were teenagers and young adults. But considering Ali's early development of Parkinson's syndrome, and how Leon Spinks took the belt from Ali and he had seven or eight bouts as a pro, doesn't rule it out either.

Also, I give props to Rademacher for lasting six rounds against the worlds best. It was a far greater effort than, say, Tom McNeeley's was and he was also a great amateur on the national level and a solid pro on the state level.

Maybe T. Stevenson might have given the top talent a run. Would anyone agree? He might have represented the greatest threat in terms of a Olympic champion stepping in with a reigning champion. Can't remember my time lines on this one who was the best of the best at the time he was reigning Olympic champ? Ali? Holmes? Norton? Foreman? Like I say I can't quite remember the timelines on this one. I remember some talk of Ali Vs Stevenson but was that when Ali was at his best? Or quite faded?

This is limited to future champions on the professional scene, though. Stevenson is ineligible for the discussion.

I agree Ellis is probably --- perhaps to the point of approaching certainty --- going to take Foreman to school. However, I see it as a possibility that Foreman could perhaps hurt the smaller man early, & move on from there. It's the most credible scenario, IMO, without being especially credible. Patterson & Johansson would have unquestionably floored Ali for the count, Ali in '64 wouldn't take long to outclass Frazier, & what Liston in '64 would have done to a debutant Frazier...yeeeeesh

I remember some talk of Ali Vs Stevenson but was that when Ali was at his best? Or quite faded?

Faded. Believe the challenge was issued in 78-79. Was either a series of four rounders throughout the period of a week, or a fifteen round contest. The fight would have pulled off, had Stevenson not stuck to being a loyal communist.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:This is limited to future champions on the professional scene, though. Stevenson is ineligible for the discussion.

I agree Ellis is probably --- perhaps to the point of approaching certainty --- going to take Foreman to school. However, I see it as a possibility that Foreman could perhaps hurt the smaller man early, & move on from there. It's the most credible scenario, IMO, without being especially credible. Patterson & Johansson would have unquestionably floored Ali for the count, Ali in '64 wouldn't take long to outclass Frazier, & what Liston in '64 would have done to a debutant Frazier...yeeeeesh

While Foreman was unquestionably a massive puncher he seldom scored one punch KO's against good competition and even if the amatuer Foreman got lucky against a prime Ellis it's unlikely he would have been able to land enough solid shots to stop him. And most likely he would not have posed any threat at all to Ellis after 3 or 4 rounds.

BoxBuzz wrote:Maybe T. Stevenson might have given the top talent a run. Would anyone agree? He might have represented the greatest threat in terms of a Olympic champion stepping in with a reigning champion. Can't remember my time lines on this one who was the best of the best at the time he was reigning Olympic champ? Ali? Holmes? Norton? Foreman? Like I say I can't quite remember the timelines on this one. I remember some talk of Ali Vs Stevenson but was that when Ali was at his best? Or quite faded?

--- Teo/Ali was proposed for 77 which ended up being one of Ali's weakest years in advance of his disasterous 78.

Teo bigger, stronger, and fully matured, good power. Cubanos have excellent pro connections and could have gotten some first rate trainers, and of course this a pre Rocky pure Cold War rivalry, not a delusional Hollywood fantasy.

Would give Teo a decent chance in this one, but legend is that Castro ran it a visiting Duran who told him that was a crazy idea, so Castro nixed the deal. Great history down the drain thanks to Duran, the rat!

Folks have forgotten the best of the lot, the true "heavy" not a superheavy, the great Felix Savon. Check the tube for a line up who's who future heavy talents getting their beans blasted out, Tua, Krasnaqi, Iggy, Biggs and others.

Savon around the 6-7 mark of whipcord lean physiology had to dehydrate hard to make 200. Natural 220-230lbs with no additional training. Lewis and Evan Field very vulnerable around Savon's first gold in 92. Lewis with Tucker who almost sparked him, Bruno who outboxed him, and McCall who did the deed with a single right, Savon's specialty shot. EF close to sparked against Foreman/Cooper and looking clueless against overrated Larry who couldn't even stand up without hanging on the ropes.

2000-01 and EF and Ruiz engaged in the great dreary rubbermatch series in history and LL sparked by another single right. I fancy Savon bigtime in these matchups. 362-21 ama record 'bout as good as it gets with a natural pro style.

Holyfield was never close to getting sparked by Foreman. He was not in serious danger at any moment during that bout. Likewise, whilst not convincing against Holmes, he still stood the clear winner at the end --- a long way removed from clueless, surely. The ams & the pros are completely different worlds, as the same sport goes. There've been countless amateurs, of serious repute, who've fallen over in the pro ranks. It's no coincidence.

Savon deserves little benefit of the doubt in professional bouts over twelve or fifteen rounds, IMO.

lennox lewis taking on the 21 year old Tyson who destroyed Spinks is funny

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Holyfield was never close to getting sparked by Foreman. He was not in serious danger at any moment during that bout.

--- Need to watch that fight again.

They both hurt each other during the fight, but the difference being that Evan Field has a burst of quick follow up flurries that can't put George away, whereas George has more time between his shots, allowing Evan some recovery. In fact, my theory is Evan Field took so much punishment, including a flush low blow early and juicy left hooks to the body, that he got rearranged internally and was never the same. He was hanging on to Old Gramps for dear life by the end he was so tapped out and this his absolute prime.

That partially explains his poor performances for the rest of his career, a really bad record after this point, something like 16-10-2 off the top of my head. If old George and cracked up Coop could buzz him, a young strong guy like Savon could turn the trick on him or Lewis. Certainly not trying to make Savon a favorite in his pro debut, but styles make fights and Savon a fairly cautious defensive fighter for an amateur who had one punch power and could pounce to finish as good as anyone.

I dont know what your saying.

Can anyone name any Cuban amateur star who defected who ever fought in the pros close to the hype they had coming out of a great amateur career? Casamayor would come closest.

dempseyfire wrote:Can anyone name any Cuban amateur star who defected who ever fought in the pros close to the hype they had coming out of a great amateur career? Casamayor would come closest.

--- JC Gomez is 158-12 and fairly well touted in his day before defecting.

Too young to crack the Cuban Olympic team in 92, and defected in 95 to start his pro career. 11-0 in WBC cruiser title matches and been on the simmer in the heavies ever since. Finally getting a go at Vitali for his WBC belt.

Well, you saw Holyfield close to getting sparked against Foreman. I didn't, no changing that.