Bartley Gorman

[Robinson]

Hey guys, I am interested in finding out if their is any footage
available of the King of the Gypsies. I have you tubed but while
finding short clips I have yet to find a film of his fights.

Those that saw him fight, how do you think he would fair
against other famous bare knuckle greats.

Sullivan, Figg, Belcher, Brain etc

Thanks again guys

[Robinson]

I have read a bit of him on YT, along with many other legendary
local bare knuckle fighters, but fail to find much footage of them.

On YT you can see some of him in older years doing interviews
and recollecting.

His son Jerry has a few clips of him training and boxing I think
ama stuff.

Would be interesting to see these men in action.

[yiddo14]

It's usually pretty under-whelming watching these fellas after reading their books.

You spend a few hours reading of how fantastic they were at fighting and how they are some of the toughest men about, yet in reality you will see guys that would get owned by domestic level pro boxers.

Tough guys no doubt, especially compared to the average man in the street, but there is a very good reason why these guys featured in hard men books have never done anything in a pro ring...it's because they were not good enough.

Lenny Mclean was a great example.
After reading his book as a yougster I thought, how on earth didn't this man win Heavyweight Titles etc! The man looked the part too, huge at 6'3 and 20 odd stone. Then you hear about the likes of Johnny Waldron(domestic level British Light Heavyweight)sparking him out twice in unlicensed fights and you then start to realise!

[Robinson]

I have found this to be the case also....that is why I am
always interested to see film of them fighting..that is
where the proof lies.

I suppose Joe Savage v Bert Cooper is a good illustration
of what you said.

Makes you wonder what we would think if we saw film of
the great bare knuckle fighters, as opposed to read the
romantic words we have to remember them by.

[dr_devious]

Gorman, Mclean, Shaw etc would get demolished by the old school bare knuckle greats such as Sullivan, Cribb, Belcher etc.
These guys were basically glorified bar room brawlers, whereas the 19th century greats were professional fighters, trained and very athletic.

[Robinson]

Yes but how well trained were they ?

from all accounts not as well trained as
many assume.

When a brisk distance walk is included as training...

[bollox]

I've been reading about some of these unlicensed fighters such as Gorman, Shaw and McLean and watched some footage on youtube of Shaw and McLean (nothing on Gorman except for the interview). Interesting viewing although I wouldn't class them as top fighters, tough vicious brawlers at best

One guy nutted McLean during the instructions then Lenny knocked him down with the first punch. Then stomped him unconscious. Shaw did a similar thing to a gypsy opponent. He KO'd him then half picked him up off the floor only to punch him some more

Apparently Gorman challenged both Shaw and McLean but nothing came of it

[bollox]

The guy didn't look that big but he was a pretty nasty piece of work. McLean too. I looked for some footage of McLean being KO'd but couldn't find any

[fist]

Gorman, Mclean, Shaw etc would get demolished by the old school bare knuckle greats such as Sullivan, Cribb, Belcher etc.
These guys were basically glorified bar room brawlers, whereas the 19th century greats were professional fighters, trained and very athletic.

Hmm how do you come to that conclusion regarding Gorman, who unlike Mclean and Shaw never lost a fight. Plus the youtube clips of bareknuckle fighters do not necessarily reflect the likes of Gorman, of which there is no footage available. Mclean and Shaw had a few unlicensed fights that were recorded and can be found on youtube, and yes many of you are right, they were past their best, hardly in athletic condition and pretty much fought like amatuers.

That said, it does not mean that Bartley Gorman should be criticised in the same way.

[yiddo14]

The world of unlicensed, street fighting , bar brawlers is full of tales of such and such offering X out for a straightner etc...

There are one or two from my town, big ex-doorman, local bar room brawlers that claim they offered Shaw, Gorman AND McLean(between the two of them) fights back in the day and were refused.
It's all hear say and myth.

I will say having met Roy Shaw on a couple of occasions he is one solidly built fella! Even though he must be 70, he is built like a little pocket battleship. Very polite and courteous though.
Apparently, as mentioned above he was a very good Boxer in his youth.
In his book it claims that Mickey Duff(his promoter)said he was a very good prospect at the time he had him and before he went to Prison, and was an old man when he took up the unlicensed game(still managed to beat Ron Stander in a fight though)

Was Gorman an actual fighter on the unlicensed cicuit or did he just fight against Gypsies at fairs and in straightners etc?

[yiddo14]

In his book it claims that Mickey Duff(his promoter)said he was a very good prospect at the time he had him and before he went to Prison, and was an old man when he took up the unlicensed game(still managed to beat Ron Stander in a fight though)

Was Gorman an actual fighter on the unlicensed cicuit or did he just fight against Gypsies at fairs and in straightners etc?

I don't think that Gorman took part in the unlicensed circuit as such. Although he did fight for money I think it was for 'King of the Gypsies' titles and such like rather than the sort of stuff that Shaw and McLean were into. Regarding Shaw v Stander - yes, Shaw did beat him but he freely admits in his book Prettyboy that Stander didn't take the fight seriously and turned up with broken ribs and way out condition after being on the piss for ages. Shaw says that in reality Stander was a miles better boxer than him and under other circumstances the American would have beaten him fairly easily.

Yeas I know he admitted Stander would have beat him had he been in shape.
He also smashed The King Of The Gypsies Donny Adams, who was unbeaten before he met Shaw I think.

That fight is on youtube I think. Shaw smashes him to pieces in the first few seconds.

The Stander admission illustrates just how far behind these guys were in terms of talent compared to average pro fighters.

[dempseyfire]

Yes but how well trained were they ?

from all accounts not as well trained as
many assume.

When a brisk distance walk is included as training...

Have you looked at training regimens for the old turn of the century guys??? It is certainly not just brisk walking . .

Comparing a bunch of pseudo bare-knuckle off-circuit 'champs' with guys who were world champions when boxing as a world sport was bare-knuckle fighting . . is pretty ridiculous.

[Robinson]

Many of these World Champions were more or less English champions.

And the training, when they started training, was covered on the
pre Queensbury training thread.

Pretty intense stuff.

[bollox]

In his book it claims that Mickey Duff(his promoter)said he was a very good prospect at the time he had him and before he went to Prison, and was an old man when he took up the unlicensed game(still managed to beat Ron Stander in a fight though)

Was Gorman an actual fighter on the unlicensed cicuit or did he just fight against Gypsies at fairs and in straightners etc?

I don't think that Gorman took part in the unlicensed circuit as such. Although he did fight for money I think it was for 'King of the Gypsies' titles and such like rather than the sort of stuff that Shaw and McLean were into. Regarding Shaw v Stander - yes, Shaw did beat him but he freely admits in his book Prettyboy that Stander didn't take the fight seriously and turned up with broken ribs and way out condition after being on the piss for ages. Shaw says that in reality Stander was a miles better boxer than him and under other circumstances the American would have beaten him fairly easily.

Yeas I know he admitted Stander would have beat him had he been in shape.
He also smashed The King Of The Gypsies Donny Adams, who was unbeaten before he met Shaw I think.

That fight is on youtube I think. Shaw smashes him to pieces in the first few seconds.

The Stander admission illustrates just how far behind these guys were in terms of talent compared to average pro fighters.

Adams was King of the Gypsies? I thought Gorman held that errm.... title, from '72 to '92

[hhaehre]

Adams was King of the Gypsies? I thought Gorman held that errm.... title, from '72 to '92

Adams was the WBA gypsy champion while Gorman held the WBC gypsy belt.

[bollox]

I wonder who the IBF, WBF, IBO, WTF etc etc etc champs were?

[yiddo14]

Adams was King of the Gypsies? I thought Gorman held that errm.... title, from '72 to '92

Adams was the WBA gypsy champion while Gorman held the WBC gypsy belt.

[Woodcuttersgypsy]

Don Adams wasnt a Romany gypsy. He was described as the king of the gypsies but that was merely by the press. i believe he was just a scrap man.

Never saw Bartley Gorman but I have seen a fair few fights with the Romany men of the south & east England.

[JMac]

John Fury, Tyson's father is supposed to be a relative of Gorman and has his picture in Gorman's book. I had a few conversations with him and he said he had over 100 bare knuckle fights. Somebody at the time told me he was the current King of the Gypsies. This was around '06. I don't know if it was true. He is a big bastard and looks like he would be tough in a street fight. I know his pro boxing record was nothing special at 8-4. He told me he didn't like pro boxing because there was too many rules. Now he will be spending time in jail for blinding some guy in a street fight.