BoxRec

The world of hypothetics has drawn the fates for these two HW's.

George Foreman looking for his rematch with Ali is set to face up
and coming terror puncher Shavers.

Mid-late 1976.

Foreman has just gone up and down against Ron Lyle, and
re-KOd Frazier.

Shavers has just had two wins over tough contender Henry
Clark.

How do you guys see this one...will Foreman get the KO ?

or will Shavers be able to put the big man down and perhaps
out last him ?

The winner gets the champion Ali.

12 rounds.
George Foreman 6'4, 224lbs vs Earnie Shavers 6', 211lbs

Foreman, just a better fighter in almost every aspect, especially chin.

dempseyfire wrote:Foreman, just a better fighter in almost every aspect, especially chin.

He even qualifies as a better two-handed hitter than Shavers, & Shavers' biggest punch --- the right --- is arguably a lesser single-shot than Foreman's right hand (you could argue day & night, of course).

Point is, Foreman had it all over Shavers. Sure, he wasn't the same man mentally when he returned from his post-Zaire hiatus, &, yes, it did tell on him as a fighter. Physically, however, he still showed enough to deal with Lyle, who also beat Shavers, & who was probably a better fighter overall.

I think Foreman knocks him out, but a slim chance would always exist for Shavers. He didn't start especially quickly, though, which would've been his best bet. There would be next to zero chance for Shavers against the blazing early assault of a post-Jamaica, pre-Zaire Foreman.

I disagree about the right hand. Shavers truly had a natural God-given power with his right . . .even badly thrown shots would put guys into lala land.

But yes, Foreman's jab and durability give him a decisive edge.

Foreman had one of the finest chins ever seen on a fighter.

A chin usually beats a puncher & take into account that Foreman was probably 97% of the puncher that Shavers was & add in the fact that Shavers didn't have a titanium chin, I think Foreman would have sparked him fairly easily.

Make it past 3 rounds against Shavers and you can out hustle him. Foreman had a damn good chin, and his chin would allow him to get through the first several rounds and then BAM...down goes Shavers

dempseyfire wrote:Foreman, just a better fighter in almost every aspect, especially chin.

Well Shavers chin held up better against Lyle than Foremans did, as Shavers was stopped because he ran out of gas. Everyone always jumps all over Shavers for his chin, but his stoppages were almost always because he ran out of gas (except for the Quarry fight where he was hit with about 50 power shots), including against the huge punching Lyle.

Also, George didn't look very good against Lyle or the well past it and obese version of Frazier.

Shavers in an upset, as he stops Foreman in 2.

The Great John L wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:Foreman, just a better fighter in almost every aspect, especially chin.

Well Shavers chin held up better against Lyle than Foremans did, as Shavers was stopped because he ran out of gas. Everyone always jumps all over Shavers for his chin, but his stoppages were almost always because he ran out of gas (except for the Quarry fight where he was hit with about 50 power shots), including against the huge punching Lyle.

Also, George didn't look very good against Lyle or the well past it and obese version of Frazier.

Shavers in an upset, as he stops Foreman in 2.

Do you really believe that Foreman didn't look that good against Frazier in the rematch?

OK, the fight lasted longer, but that's only because for the 1st time in Joe's career, he backed off & had ultimate respect for his opponent.

Once he started to tire & George started landing, he started to bounce Frazier around like a basketball, just like in fight 1.

I don't see how one can argue Shavers handled Lyle's power better. Even if he went down more, one guy was deposited lifeless on the canvas and the other wasn't, fatigue or not. One suffered numerous KO losses and one suffered only one vs Ali. Shavers had inferior technique, inferior stamina (and that's saying a lot) . . .I'd say the one thing Earnie has on Foreman is better one-shot power but that is about it.

I would pick foreman but I think Shavers would have a serious chance.
Of the two, Shavers was quicker. Sometimes shavers did seem to have stamina problems. On the other hand, he fought a hard 15 rounds against Ali; Foreman never did that. Head to head though, it's doubtful this is going to go long.

My best guess is that it would be something like both of their fights against Lyle. A lot of fireworks with each guy getting hurt. They may have been the two hardest hitting punchers in the history of boxing. The biggest difference between the two is that Foreman was a great finisher and Shavers. It's less likely that Foreman would let Shavers off the hook if he had him hurt. Foreman would probably win two out of 3.

To compare their two fights with Ali is not fair. The Ali who fought Shavers was beyond washed up and already beginning to suffer from Parkinsons. IMO he would've lost to the 1974 Foreman. Likewise, Shavers would've been stopped by the Ali of Zaire, as he almost was in the 15th round of their 1977 fight.

dempseyfire wrote:To compare their two fights with Ali is not fair. The Ali who fought Shavers was beyond washed up and already beginning to suffer from Parkinsons. IMO he would've lost to the 1974 Foreman. Likewise, Shavers would've been stopped by the Ali of Zaire, as he almost was in the 15th round of their 1977 fight.

Perfectly summed up.

There were only 3 years between Ali's fights with George & Earnie, but it might as well have been 23 as Ali had deteriorated so badly.

It's beyond comprehension that anybody could compare the 2.

Ambling Alp wrote:I would pick foreman but I think Shavers would have a serious chance.

My point exactly. If they fought 5 times I would say that George probably wins 3 or 4 times, but Shavers is a live opponent and I think Ernie does well the first time they fight because George was more arrogant than Shavers and probably would have underestimated Shavers as he did Lyle.

And again the simple reviewing of Shavers record and saying that he was KOd on a number of occasions is a very poor understanding of boxing and indicates that maybe some people haven't even watched those Shavers fights. As I noted the only time Shavers was stopped without being completely gassed was against Quarry and in that fight he was hit with about 30 or 40 clean power shots from a very hard puncher.

And yes if you want to say that it doesn't matter if Shavers was gassed when he was stopped against Lyle, then it clearly doesn't matter that George was gassed against Ali. George had a great chin, but he was clearly hurt by the first solid Lyle shot and Shavers wasn't. In fact, Foreman was dropped by Jimmy Young while Shavers wasn't in their two fights.

Shavers had a very good chin, maybe excellent when you consider that he was hardly a great defensive fighter. The simplistic way that many review records and pass judgments based on simple numbers is really pretty sad. More than most sports, it's important to go beyond mere numbers when evaluating a fighter and Shavers chin is probably the best example I can site, because almost everybody merely looks at his stoppages and assumes his chin wasn't that great.

Does anyone care to list the fights where Shavers was dropped by a single shot in an early round before he ran out of gas?

dempseyfire wrote:To compare their two fights with Ali is not fair. The Ali who fought Shavers was beyond washed up and already beginning to suffer from Parkinsons. IMO he would've lost to the 1974 Foreman. Likewise, Shavers would've been stopped by the Ali of Zaire, as he almost was in the 15th round of their 1977 fight.

I think you misunderstood my popint. Of course Ali was much better in 1974 when he fought Foreman than he was by 1977 when he fought Shavers.
My point was that Shavers seemed show good stamina in the Ali fight. He fought at a pretty good pace for 15 rounds. Foreman never did that.
Maybe he could have, but I don't think so.
So I think an "in shape" Shavers had better stamina than Foreman.

I do agree with John L. that in some fights Shavers didn't show good stamina. Most of his ko defeats were a combination of being tired and getting hit with a lot of punches because of his poor defense.
He had a decent chin.

To me the bottom line is Foreman probably would have won, but Shavers would certainly have a chance.

The Great John L wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:I would pick foreman but I think Shavers would have a serious chance.

My point exactly. If they fought 5 times I would say that George probably wins 3 or 4 times, but Shavers is a live opponent and I think Ernie does well the first time they fight because George was more arrogant than Shavers and probably would have underestimated Shavers as he did Lyle.

And again the simple reviewing of Shavers record and saying that he was KOd on a number of occasions is a very poor understanding of boxing and indicates that maybe some people haven't even watched those Shavers fights. As I noted the only time Shavers was stopped without being completely gassed was against Quarry and in that fight he was hit with about 30 or 40 clean power shots from a very hard puncher.

And yes if you want to say that it doesn't matter if Shavers was gassed when he was stopped against Lyle, then it clearly doesn't matter that George was gassed against Ali. George had a great chin, but he was clearly hurt by the first solid Lyle shot and Shavers wasn't. In fact, Foreman was dropped by Jimmy Young while Shavers wasn't in their two fights.

Shavers had a very good chin, maybe excellent when you consider that he was hardly a great defensive fighter. The simplistic way that many review records and pass judgments based on simple numbers is really pretty sad. More than most sports, it's important to go beyond mere numbers when evaluating a fighter and Shavers chin is probably the best example I can site, because almost everybody merely looks at his stoppages and assumes his chin wasn't that great.

Does anyone care to list the fights where Shavers was dropped by a single shot in an early round before he ran out of gas?

I disagree John. Yes Earnie was usually stopped after he got tired but a lot of his KO wins were 'comeback' knockouts and not all were in the later rounds . . .vs Ellis, Davis, Williams, Shavers was badly hurt right before the KO that won the fight. Also, fatigue is an issue for many KO losses, but citing his lack of stamina I believe strongly favors Foreman in this matchup, as in a slugfest where technique goes out the window, the guy with the better conditioning and durability will prevail.

I wasn't saying Shavers had a bad chin, but Foreman was clearly the more durable guy. Whether you want to call it chin or stamina of a combination of both, Foreman is the guy who will prevail in a slugfest with Shavers. I give Earnie maybe a 1 out of 6 chance of landing that perfect shot and knocking George out.

Ambling Alp wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:To compare their two fights with Ali is not fair. The Ali who fought Shavers was beyond washed up and already beginning to suffer from Parkinsons. IMO he would've lost to the 1974 Foreman. Likewise, Shavers would've been stopped by the Ali of Zaire, as he almost was in the 15th round of their 1977 fight.

I think you misunderstood my popint. Of course Ali was much better in 1974 when he fought Foreman than he was by 1977 when he fought Shavers.
My point was that Shavers seemed show good stamina in the Ali fight. He fought at a pretty good pace for 15 rounds. Foreman never did that.
Maybe he could have, but I don't think so.
So I think an "in shape" Shavers had better stamina than Foreman.

I do agree with John L. that in some fights Shavers didn't show good stamina. Most of his ko defeats were a combination of being tired and getting hit with a lot of punches because of his poor defense.
He had a decent chin.

To me the bottom line is Foreman probably would have won, but Shavers would certainly have a chance.

I disagree about the stamina. Most of Ali-Shavers was fought at a turtle's pace . . the fight picked up in the last 3 rounds but most of the rounds before were pretty tame. And Shavers STILL almost got stopped in the last round b/c he was so fatigued.

Foreman's stamina is not as bad as it has been made out to be. Foreman kept up a pace vs Peralta in their first fight, for example, that was incredible for 10 rounds. The one Shavers fight I can think of where he doesn't look incredibly fatigued by the middle rounds is actually the first Holmes fight.

dempseyfire wrote:I disagree John. Yes Earnie was usually stopped after he got tired but a lot of his KO wins were 'comeback' knockouts and not all were in the later rounds . . .vs Ellis, Davis, Williams, Shavers was badly hurt right before the KO that won the fight.

A LOT of his KO wins were "comeback" KOs!?! The guy had a lot of KOs and you've named a few. So what? Sounds like the arguments some use against Dempsey because he was hurt against Carpentier. Sahvers didn't go down in those fights and in fact had the resolve and ability to stop his opponents after getting rocked. As I said before, name a fight where a non-fatigued Shavers got dropped by one or two shots. He had an excellent chin.

dempseyfire wrote:Also, fatigue is an issue for many KO losses, but citing his lack of stamina I believe strongly favors Foreman in this matchup, as in a slugfest where technique goes out the window, the guy with the better conditioning and durability will prevail.

Fatigue was the cause of all of his stoppages, save for the Quarry fight where he was hit a ton of times.

And yes, in general George had better stamina. In fact, that's the only thing that saved him against Lyle, who just didn't have quite enough left at the end. Foreman had a great chin, but Shavers was one of the hardest punchers in history, and besides Lyle, George never fought anyone who could punch nearly as hard. And look at what happened against Lyle. Shavers would probably have fought Foreman the same way he fought Lyle, and that would have given him a very good chance of pulling the upset.

The Great John L wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:I disagree John. Yes Earnie was usually stopped after he got tired but a lot of his KO wins were 'comeback' knockouts and not all were in the later rounds . . .vs Ellis, Davis, Williams, Shavers was badly hurt right before the KO that won the fight.

A LOT of his KO wins were "comeback" KOs!?! The guy had a lot of KOs and you've named a few. So what? Sounds like the arguments some use against Dempsey because he was hurt against Carpentier. Sahvers didn't go down in those fights and in fact had the resolve and ability to stop his opponents after getting rocked. As I said before, name a fight where a non-fatigued Shavers got dropped by one or two shots. He had an excellent chin.

dempseyfire wrote:Also, fatigue is an issue for many KO losses, but citing his lack of stamina I believe strongly favors Foreman in this matchup, as in a slugfest where technique goes out the window, the guy with the better conditioning and durability will prevail.

Fatigue was the cause of all of his stoppages, save for the Quarry fight where he was hit a ton of times.

And yes, in general George had better stamina. In fact, that's the only thing that saved him against Lyle, who just didn't have quite enough left at the end. Foreman had a great chin, but Shavers was one of the hardest punchers in history, and besides Lyle, George never fought anyone who could punch nearly as hard. And look at what happened against Lyle. Shavers would probably have fought Foreman the same way he fought Lyle, and that would have given him a very good chance of pulling the upset.

In summary what I was saying was that the guy could be hurt by hard punches. I certainly don't see him 'walking' through Foreman's shots like he did Holmes and Ali.

I agree he had a solid chin, but somehow implying that Shavers could take punches better than George b/c Foreman went down more vs Lyle is ridiculous. Foreman faced plenty of big punchers in the 70s and 90s (Frazier, Norton, Lyle, Morrison, Cooney, Briggs) and only went down vs Lyle after being inactive for over a year and coming back from a KO loss vs Ali (that his management would put him in straight vs Lyle is just crazy in today's context) If you wern't implying that, then I think we're slightly on the same page.