BoxRec

OK just wanted to know, who people think is the best heavyweight who was under 6 feet tall, .. Here's my list :

Mike tyson 5-10 - 11"
Joe Frazier 5 11 and half"
James toney 5- 9"
David Tua 5 - 10"
Rocky Marciano 5 10"
Eric Butterbean Esch 5 11 and half
Stacy goodson 5 9"
Archie Moore 5 11"


care to add anymore? and who you think was the best heavyweight who was under 6 feet.

peace



Care to add anymoe?

I dont have any

oh what the hell......bert cooper

Tommy Burns - 5'7"

tyson by a mile

James Toney at an elevated age is the most impressive of all time for me. I believe he could have moved up years earlier and ran off an unbelievable streak of former MW Champ vs HW's without ever getting knocked out. What he did at HW and he's still doing now is already incredible to me. MW's may sneak in and snatch a win or a belt at HW once in awhile but they don't ever consistently streak through the divisions top punchers. They especially aren't supposed to ever be able to win fights like Toney vs the big boys and are usually expected to use speed. His is an anomoly with some of the tiniest HW hands of all time and 1 of the greatest chins ever.


Tyson was meteoric and exciting. He burned it up and then burned it out. He dominated while he did and then he self imploded. It was very possible for these 2 to have met if James would have moved up earlier. The decision in his career to try to collect the 175 and 190 belts likely held him back from being considered the best ever. Branding him at HW and the success that came with it deemed those other classes irrelevant. It would have been great for boxing too, having a young, prime Toney talking smack to the biggest guys in the World.

Kronkpride wrote:James Toney at an elevated age is the most impressive of all time for me. I believe he could have moved up years earlier and ran off an unbelievable streak of former MW Champ vs HW's without ever getting knocked out.

It was definitely impressive, but I think he also moved up in proper time when division was so weak he could win with some top contenders (Ruiz, Peter). I think few years earlier Holy would tear him apart (and so would Lewis and even past-prime Tyson), and there were a lot more fighters who would be quite dangerous for him (Mercer, Moorer, Bowe, ...)

Sam Langord was really short for HW, even if you take into account the limit for HW was probably something like 190.

i doubt toney's career at hevyweight would have been any more successful if he'd moved up sooner. he was an out of shape heavyweight no matter his age. if he was in shape, he wouldn't be at heavyweight.

I'll throw Everett "Big Foot" Martin in for going the distance with people like Tony Tubbs, Michael Moorer and Herbie Hide and for beating Bert Cooper and Tim Witherspoon. All hail the "Big Foot"

Floyd Patterson was marginally 6'.

Sam Langford was 5'8.

JOe Goss was 5'8.

Tom Sharkey was 5'8.

Joe Choynski was 5'11.

Pete Everett was 5'11.

Jose Urtain was 5'11.

Are a few more that I dont think have been listed that I can
think of.

Many heavweights are shorter than reported. Tyson isnt 5-11.5 and Frazier isnt that tall either. Many people , who have met them say arround 5-9. So maybe there are some more HW , who were under 6 F, although they had been reported to be taller. Id say Tyson and Frazier are the best short HWs ever. I would say they play in the same league.

To name a few on my list:

Frazier
Marciano
Tyson
Langford
Jeanette
Sullivan
McVey
Fitzsimmons
T. Sharkey
A Moore
Burns
Childs
Bivins
Godoy
Choynski
Bonavena
Hart
Miske
Norfolk
Farr
Tua
J. Clark
Uzcudun
TJ Fox
Godfrey (Old)
Stribling
Killen
Mauriello
Weinert
Galento
Schreck
Cardiff
Kilrain

Based on my criteria for all-time rankings, which is a combination of accomplishments and who-beats-who, I would rate the sub 6 foot heavies as such:

1. Marciano
2. Frazier
3. Tyson
4. Langford

Afterwards it fades away a bit.

As for what people have said about Toney, I agree, he is a freak to have accomplished what he has at higher weights, and he has done it through a combination of strong chin, very good technique, good defense and mediocre opposition. If James Toney was at a healthy weight today, he would weigh perhaps 185lb, probably less. He is not a natural heavyweight, just a tremendously skilled, big hearted, iron chinned fat guy.

Great list, John L. Very expansive.

On accomplishment, the best I would rank would be Marciano & Frazier. In a head-to-head context, I think Tyson is my man of choice (as Tyson accomplished less in my eyes than the above two men, but would, IMO, likely defeat each of them).

frazier

he outguts tyson and out speeds marciano

Rocky Marciano, in my opinion.

1-Iron Mike
2-Joe Frazier
3-James Toney
4-Rocky Marciano

xanxicar wrote:OK just wanted to know, who people think is the best heavyweight who was under 6 feet tall, .. Here's my list :

Mike tyson 5-10 - 11"
Joe Frazier 5 11 and half"
James toney 5- 9"
David Tua 5 - 10"
Rocky Marciano 5 10"
Eric Butterbean Esch 5 11 and half
Stacy goodson 5 9"
Archie Moore 5 11"

theres a few fellas that shouldnt be mentioned in this thread let alone your orginal post. butterbean being one of them

Jan wrote:Many heavweights are shorter than reported. Tyson isnt 5-11.5 and Frazier isnt that tall either. Many people , who have met them say arround 5-9. So maybe there are some more HW , who were under 6 F, although they had been reported to be taller. Id say Tyson and Frazier are the best short HWs ever. I would say they play in the same league.

Tbh I dont think think that tyson is 5 9" if u watch his fights with bruno , he doesnt look 6 inches shorter than bruno(bruno is 6 3") so i think 5 10" or 5 10 and a half(178 or 179cm) is i think accurate height of tyson. Same goes for Frazier , he doesnt look half a foot shorter than Cassius clay....

Tyson imo

Yes. its true that tyson didnt look 5-9 in the ring. but outside the ring he really didnt look 5-11. maybe the boxers get messured in shoes.

There are no "official" measurements of boxers. All measurements, ht., reach, fist size, etc. is whatever the boxers manager gives whoever is compiling the tale of the tape. Only the official weight at the weigh in is checked, and sometimes it is not accurate. Some fighters weigh in clothed, with things in their pockets etc. in the hywt. class. In the lighter classes, a hometown guy or a fan favorite might get some advantages at the scale.

jezzamundo wrote:Based on my criteria for all-time rankings, which is a combination of accomplishments and who-beats-who, I would rate the sub 6 foot heavies as such:

1. Marciano
2. Frazier
3. Tyson
4. Langford

Afterwards it fades away a bit.

As for what people have said about Toney, I agree, he is a freak to have accomplished what he has at higher weights, and he has done it through a combination of strong chin, very good technique, good defense and mediocre opposition.

- Sorry to see such an honourable effort at a credible list to be ruined by mention of a fighter who orders his shorts from a tent factory.

OK, let me get in that Sam Langford is the greatest fighter to have ever lived, period. Not the best ever in a single weight class, just the greatest fighter ever which should be self explanatory. No problems with your top 3 short heavy rankings, afterall, it's just personal opinion which we all have and it's reasonable.

What are these so called accomplishments at heavy by Toney? He "KOed" a past it Mr. Evan H. Field who was 2-3-1 in his last 6 fights. Mr. EH Field's corner abandoned him after he experienced a senior balance moment. He was never hurt, just clueless and lost. He was hanging on to last spot of Ring's top 10 on reputation if that, so Toney made a big splash in his debut.

Guinn had fallen out of the top 10 and was 3-2-1. That was his next best win, but almost 4 yrs ago.

Can you point me to a single fight where he shows defensive class. No, an old EH Field who can't pull the trigger doesn't count. I guess maybe Guinn down to Guinn only landing 25% of the 4 punches he throws every round, is that what you mean?

Finally, are you stating Toney was a freak to accomplish what he has in part to mediocre opposition? His record coming up on 6 yrs in the division is 5-2-1, 1 "KO" in 10 fights. Do we need to bring up what Jimmy Ellis' or Ezzy Charles' record was at heavy as a reminder of what true excellence is?

Kronkpride wrote:James Toney at an elevated age is the most impressive of all time for me. I believe he could have moved up years earlier and ran off an unbelievable streak of former MW Champ vs HW's without ever getting knocked out. What he did at HW and he's still doing now is already incredible to me. MW's may sneak in and snatch a win or a belt at HW once in awhile but they don't ever consistently streak through the divisions top punchers. They especially aren't supposed to ever be able to win fights like Toney vs the big boys and are usually expected to use speed. His is an anomoly with some of the tiniest HW hands of all time and 1 of the greatest chins ever.

Toney's inability to win a belt even in this fragile division shows how really great he is at HW.

I'm a huge James Toney fan, but I think the praise that some are heaping on him in this thread is very hard to understand. It's possible that if he had moved up to HW earlier in his career he may have been able to establish some type of legacy in the division. Of course, it's also possible that he would have merely become a mediocre obese HW at a younger age. Either way, he hasn't really accomplished much in the division, besides performing so badly in his second fight that many actually were duped into thinking that Sam Peter could fight.

Toney is a HOF boxer, but he's nothing more than an over the hill, obese journeyman HW.