BoxRec

Going to skip over the controversial transition era of Tyson and cut straight away to the chase:

Title defenses of prime Ali vs those of Lewis and Wlad.

Going to skip the Liston fights as the more I talk about those fights the more impossible it becomes in ranking Ali properly. He had 8 straight title defenses after Liston with very few controversies, a career streak of sorts for him.

Floyd Patterson 196¾ 43-4-0 Vs Donovan Ruddock 231½ 26-3-1/Chris Byrd 213½ 31-1-0
Floyd in poor health for the fight, so I see a pair of KOs. At his best in this stage a couple years later in the tournament, I don't see much change in results save he might last the distance against Byrd.

George Chuvalo216 34-11-2 Vs Tony Tucker235 49-1-0/Derrick Jefferson260 23-2-1
Tucker past his best, yet gave Lewis all he could handle, so UD for Tony. Jefferson prime and in some entertaining scraps back then, a bit of a load from what George is used to. Have no problems picking George, but with 11 losses and many more to come, Jeff has a fair chance to beat him.

Henry Cooper188 33-11-1 Vs Frank Bruno 238 36-3-0/Charles Shufford234 17-1-0
I guess Henry is gonna always have a slugger's chance, but don't see how it would be a fair one even against Shufford.

Brian London201½ 35-13-0 Vs Phil Jackson218 30-1-0/Francois Botha 241 44-3-1
Jackson and Botha won't be in HOF, but neither will London. I see London's bridges imploding upon impact.

Karl Mildenberger 195 49-2-3 Vs Oliver McCall 231¼ 24-5-0/Ray Mercer228 30-4-1
Karl's best hope here is McCall/Mercer get DQed for being criminally crazy, but doubt many could ever really favor him to beat them, though he gives Ali plenty of problems.

Cleveland Williams210½ 65-5-1 Vs Oliver McCall 237 28-6-0/Jameel McCline 263 28-2-3
Big Cat more like a itty bitty kitty in this matchup. Let's face it, this was Ali's gift to the ailing Williams coming off his death bed after being pronounced dead at Ben Taub hospital in Houston.

Ernie Terrell 212¼ 38-4-0 Vs Henry Akinwande 237½ 32-0-1/ Corrie Sanders 225 38-2-0
Hmmmm, The Octopus against Huggable Henry. Who knows how that plays out, but Sanders would whack out Terrell post haste as he has nothing to keep Corrie at bay.

Zora Folley 202½ 74-7-4 Vs Andrew Golota244 28-2-0/Lamon Brewster 226 29-2-0
The old saws sez size don't matter, but I can't see oldman Folley lasting any longer than what his footwork lasts unless Golota gets himself DQed first.

I don't see the storied 60s era matching up well at all when it comes to Lewis/Wlad title opposition. I only favored one 60s contender Chuvalo. I ran the matches lineally, so just mixing and matching carefully, we could favor maybe Terrell against Shufford or Jefferson for example, but who would really bet the farm on Ernie lasting the distance when it comes down to the brass tacks of it all?

My point in the exercise was to compare head to head a storied period in boxing history with an era I repeatedly see dismissed in the most egregiously foul terms imaginable. Hugglable Henry may deserve what is slung his way, but realistically, is he going to choose to fight Marvin Hart, Fitz, or Floyd in the manner he fought Lewis?

Given the size and strength difference which should be obvious from my examples, it appears that has created more grappling strategies not dissimilar to the first decades of boxing as today's prototypes of the future sized heavies struggle to evolve better application techniques to use the stronger platforms.

I see those match up's being tough for that version of Patterson.

I can see Ruddock sadly stopping Floyd and Byrd flying his way
to a safe win. Not the best Patterson in that Ali fight to show
himself against such competition. The Patterson of Cooper or Chuvalo
bouts would make it alot more interesting.

I dont see Tucker and Jefferson stopping Chuvalo, but I do see them
winning the decision. Both match ups would be interesting, but I
just can not imagine Chuvalo winning.

As game and brave as Cooper was. I just see both men stopping him
either by TKO or out right KO...maybe 4-6 rounds. Not a good match
for him in either case.

London would be out worked and out muscled Botha and Jackson. I can
see both men winning by stoppage.

Mildenberger is over matched here. Mercer may struggle early if he boxes
down to this level of comp, but he comes through with a KO. McCall has
less troubel and wins by KO early.

Williams in this period was a shadow of perhaps a shadow. Both these guys
stop him. Even the challenged mcCall finds the right hand to end the match.

Terrel looks terrible against Akinwande who no doubt wins the decison. It could
go either way, thats if the judges are still at ringside and not in their cots by
nights end. Sanders would find the shot to put Terrel away no doubt.

Folley as good as he WAS at this time does not have the speed and size to over
come the powerful though inconsistent Golota. I see the mad Pole winning by KO.
Brewster would have it in him to get a good and sound win also.

Broughton...

would you perhaps be interested in matching the Jeffries, Burns
challengers against say the terrible Tyson opponents ?

Or perhaps the great Louis challengers against those faced by
Holmes? As much as you love my favourite fighter Holmes.

Mr Broughton I draw the same conclusions as you in this one..

Robinson wrote: would you perhaps be interested in matching the Jeffries, Burns
challengers against say the terrible Tyson opponents ?

Or perhaps the great Louis challengers against those faced by
Holmes? As much as you love my favourite fighter Holmes.

- I enjoy looking at legit hythetical matchups because that is the essence of matchmaking and fight build up, trying to figure how the fighters match up and picking the favorite as well as seeing how the odds start and finish at.

I picked Ali vs Lewis/Wlad era because there is only 35yrs or so difference in the eras and the footage we have is excellent and articles easier to access.

I don't think we need match 35 yr old Fitz against Trever Berbick to know how those matchups would go.

Louis has a HOF career before he ever wins the title, so trying to match his era against Holmes is doomed because Holmes not nearly so talented, touted, or willing to fight the best not to mention that he was a late bloomer at an age where Louis had entered into his inactive army phase. I rather enjoy matching Louis/Ali/Tyson age to age as they are the top youngest ever heavies by a long shot with greatest deference to Patterson and they have that long inactive period forced on them which makes interesting comeback comparisons.

What I prefer doing with Holmes, is making him fight the guys in his era he never faced in a timely manner, if at all. We end up with a shadow career against better opposition when you do that, and certainly he won't be chasing a phantom Rocky record as he's gonna take his whoopin's early and often.

Or alternately, match him and Big Jess Willard's opposition on the way to late blooming titles. That would be classic!

Jack Johnson's vs Tommy Burns' opposition would be interesting since they were defending in the same era against 2nd and 3rd tier opposition.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: What I prefer doing with Holmes, is making him fight the guys in his era he never faced in a timely manner, if at all. We end up with a shadow career against better opposition when you do that, and certainly he won't be chasing a phantom Rocky record as he's gonna take his whoopin's early and often.

I'll be interested to see you spin that one.

The usual way it is done, with Page for instance, is to just ignore their losses at critical times and repeat, ad nauseum, that Holmes ducked him.

Do try to keep it realistic though. No backing your 'theories' up with 'secret' fights in Canada behind closed doors where Witherspoon KO'd Holmes in a rematch.

The fact that two people picked Derrick Jefferson to beat Georger Chuvalo and a 41 year old Mercer to beat any top fighter tells you all you need to know.

Zora Folley loses to Lamon Brewster?

Sanders beats Terrell?

Nice dreams but this is an utter joke.

dempseyfire wrote:The fact that two people picked Derrick Jefferson to beat Georger Chuvalo and a 41 year old Mercer to beat any top fighter tells you all you need to know.

Zora Folley loses to Lamon Brewster?

Sanders beats Terrell?

Nice dreams but this is an utter joke.

Yeah, but remember this is just another attempt to belittle Ali's achievements.

In BRR's dreams he probably sees Hasim Rahman standing Ali on his head.

Compared to this young fellow, granberry's views seem almost reasonable.

dempseyfire wrote:The fact that two people picked Derrick Jefferson to beat Georger Chuvalo and a 41 year old Mercer to beat any top fighter tells you all you need to know.

Zora Folley loses to Lamon Brewster?

Sanders beats Terrell?

- Need to hire an electrician to replace that faulty switch. I picked George over Jeff, but that in no way negates Jeff's reasonable chance to win. Might get your dear old granny to explain the concept of odds to you.

Mercer was at least as much a top fighter as Mildenberger was. Lewis sued Tyson to stop their bout in advance of Lewis/Tyson because he feared Mercer would beat Tyson, scratching Lewis' big opportunity.

Folley was entering his late 30s as an 80+ bout vet with 7 losses coming into Ali, most by KO. Not a good game plan against Brewster.

Cleve Williams KOed Terrell, so a bigger, stronger lefty specializing in first round KOs does it quicker.

Disagree all you want, but you bring nothing to the table but feeble cries of protestation.

I cannot believe the sheer gullibility of some people.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:The fact that two people picked Derrick Jefferson to beat Georger Chuvalo and a 41 year old Mercer to beat any top fighter tells you all you need to know.

Zora Folley loses to Lamon Brewster?

Sanders beats Terrell?

- Need to hire an electrician to replace that faulty switch. I picked George over Jeff, but that in no way negates Jeff's reasonable chance to win. Might get your dear old granny to explain the concept of odds to you.

Mercer was at least as much a top fighter as Mildenberger was. Lewis sued Tyson to stop their bout in advance of Lewis/Tyson because he feared Mercer would beat Tyson, scratching Lewis' big opportunity.

Folley was entering his late 30s as an 80+ bout vet with 7 losses coming into Ali, most by KO. Not a good game plan against Brewster.

Cleve Williams KOed Terrell, so a bigger, stronger lefty specializing in first round KOs does it quicker.

Disagree all you want, but you bring nothing to the table but feeble cries of protestation.

Sorry clown, you're not fooling anyone except Robinson who simply loves the argument that the all the old timers were 'over-rated' . . .

Mercer when Wlad fought him was 41 years old and hadn't fought a name fighter in 5 years. A peak Mildenberger would've comfortably outboxed that Mercer . . .hell, even the prime Ray couldn't decisively beat the very average Ferguson and needed a hail mary nose-break to beat Damiani.

Folley was 34 and yes past his best when he fought Ali. But still much better than a 34 year old Brewster coming off over a year layoff, major eye surgery, and several severe beatings in one career that should normally span over three. Who in his prime couldn't even win a slugging match with glass-headed Ettiene. Folley forgot more about boxing than poor Lamon ever learned.

Sanders was not bigger and stronger than Williams, but of course to you one inch in height and 10 lbs of flab give fighters major strength advantages. Sanders lacked the skills and most importantly the stamina to ever beat any top fighters except . . .duh duh dah . . .Klitschko. Terrell, a tall durable fighter with excellent stamina and a persistent sledghammer jab would be Sander's worst nightmare.

When you have followed boxing as long as I have and had some, hell any, experience in the ring yourself, you learn ring skills and stamina are the meat and potatoes of boxing. To even suggest an amateur like a Derrick Jefferson . . .awful stamina, awful defense, weak chin . . would somehow find a way to win vs an incredibly conditioned, durable body destroyer with a high workrate like Chuvalo over 12-15 rounds, just displays a sheer ignorance of how this sport operates.

I'm convinced.



I just kicked Ali out of my top 20.

dempseyfire wrote:

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:The fact that two people picked Derrick Jefferson to beat Georger Chuvalo and a 41 year old Mercer to beat any top fighter tells you all you need to know.

Zora Folley loses to Lamon Brewster?

Sanders beats Terrell?

- Need to hire an electrician to replace that faulty switch. I picked George over Jeff, but that in no way negates Jeff's reasonable chance to win. Might get your dear old granny to explain the concept of odds to you.

Mercer was at least as much a top fighter as Mildenberger was. Lewis sued Tyson to stop their bout in advance of Lewis/Tyson because he feared Mercer would beat Tyson, scratching Lewis' big opportunity.

Folley was entering his late 30s as an 80+ bout vet with 7 losses coming into Ali, most by KO. Not a good game plan against Brewster.

Cleve Williams KOed Terrell, so a bigger, stronger lefty specializing in first round KOs does it quicker.

Disagree all you want, but you bring nothing to the table but feeble cries of protestation.

Sorry clown, you're not fooling anyone except Robinson who simply loves the argument that the all the old timers were 'over-rated' . . .

Mercer when Wlad fought him was 41 years old and hadn't fought a name fighter in 5 years. A peak Mildenberger would've comfortably outboxed that Mercer . . .hell, even the prime Ray couldn't decisively beat the very average Ferguson and needed a hail mary nose-break to beat Damiani.

Folley was 34 and yes past his best when he fought Ali. But still much better than a 34 year old Brewster coming off over a year layoff, major eye surgery, and several severe beatings in one career that should normally span over three. Who in his prime couldn't even win a slugging match with glass-headed Ettiene. Folley forgot more about boxing than poor Lamon ever learned.

Sanders was not bigger and stronger than Williams, but of course to you one inch in height and 10 lbs of flab give fighters major strength advantages. Sanders lacked the skills and most importantly the stamina to ever beat any top fighters except . . .duh duh dah . . .Klitschko. Terrell, a tall durable fighter with excellent stamina and a persistent sledghammer jab would be Sander's worst nightmare.

When you have followed boxing as long as I have and had some, hell any, experience in the ring yourself, you learn ring skills and stamina are the meat and potatoes of boxing. To even suggest an amateur like a Derrick Jefferson . . .awful stamina, awful defense, weak chin . . would somehow find a way to win vs an incredibly conditioned, durable body destroyer with a high workrate like Chuvalo over 12-15 rounds, just displays a sheer ignorance of how this sport operates.

I never said old timers were over rated.

And I should correct myself I was including the Mecer that fought Lewis and not
Wlad. My mistake.

Ali is still a top and sensational HW. No disputing that. This thread only counts his
1960s bouts. Far from concluding the greatness of Ali.

dempseyfire wrote: Sorry clown. . .

Mercer when Wlad fought him was 41 years old and hadn't fought a name fighter in 5 years. A peak Mildenberger would've comfortably outboxed that Mercer . . .

Folley was 34 and yes past his best when he fought Ali. But still much better than a 34 year old Brewster coming off over a year layoff, major eye surgery, and several severe beatings in one career that should normally span over three.

- Ah, my sweet fluffums, pity you can't operate at a high enough level to understand the Brewster example I used was the younger, fresher version who went on to KO Golota, Krasniqi. Old man Folley might have a chance to outbox Brewster in his youth when he made a name for himself, but not the old man version who was well established as having a weak chin by then.

German hometowner Milde had never beat a single top 10 opponent save arguably Machen who was already coming into the fight with 2 recent decision "losses" to local hero Terrell and in Patterson's adoptive home country, Sweden. Machen much more deserving of a title shot than Milde who was a fine fighter, but had losses to much poorer quality fighters than Mercer had, not mention being smaller and weaker. Nor did he show any class in the elimination tourney after this against Bonavena and subsequent fights against Martin and Cooper.

Mercer was past his best, but enough of a threat in his comeback to cause Lewis to sue Tyson to prevent him from fighting Mercer as a tuneup in advance of Lewis/Tyson.

Yes, Sanders was larger framed than Williams, quicker, well skilled and a much faster starter. It's a fact that lefties have shown their huge advantages in the modern era compared to the dark ages when lefties couldn't get title fights, probably prompting Sanders to pursue pro golf rather than put up with backroom stabbings of boxing. More interesting is how you ignore Ernie's losses going into the Ali fight. He lacks the strength to tie up the Wild Bull of Pretoria which was the only way Ernie squeaked out the distance against Big Cat in the rematch.

Yes fluffums, you've shown a distinct preference for outrageous outrage over class breakdowns of fights. These are all hypotheticals and I've given my breakdown and backed up every single point. After hoisting yourself with great petard, you completely ignore every weakness of your favored fighter and focus on every weakness of your hated fighter, distinctly off balance and out of whack.

Nice exchange of views here, very informative.
I am an Ali fan, but i don't have any problems with BRR's arguments.
In fact, i find them very persuasive.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

dempseyfire wrote: Sorry clown. . .

Mercer when Wlad fought him was 41 years old and hadn't fought a name fighter in 5 years. A peak Mildenberger would've comfortably outboxed that Mercer . . .

Folley was 34 and yes past his best when he fought Ali. But still much better than a 34 year old Brewster coming off over a year layoff, major eye surgery, and several severe beatings in one career that should normally span over three.

- Ah, my sweet fluffums, pity you can't operate at a high enough level to understand the Brewster example I used was the younger, fresher version who went on to KO Golota, Krasniqi. Old man Folley might have a chance to outbox Brewster in his youth when he made a name for himself, but not the old man version who was well established as having a weak chin by then.

German hometowner Milde had never beat a single top 10 opponent save arguably Machen who was already coming into the fight with 2 recent decision "losses" to local hero Terrell and in Patterson's adoptive home country, Sweden. Machen much more deserving of a title shot than Milde who was a fine fighter, but had losses to much poorer quality fighters than Mercer had, not mention being smaller and weaker. Nor did he show any class in the elimination tourney after this against Bonavena and subsequent fights against Martin and Cooper.

Mercer was past his best, but enough of a threat in his comeback to cause Lewis to sue Tyson to prevent him from fighting Mercer as a tuneup in advance of Lewis/Tyson.

Yes, Sanders was larger framed than Williams, quicker, well skilled and a much faster starter. It's a fact that lefties have shown their huge advantages in the modern era compared to the dark ages when lefties couldn't get title fights, probably prompting Sanders to pursue pro golf rather than put up with backroom stabbings of boxing. More interesting is how you ignore Ernie's losses going into the Ali fight. He lacks the strength to tie up the Wild Bull of Pretoria which was the only way Ernie squeaked out the distance against Big Cat in the rematch.

.

Brewster lost in slugging matches to guys with worse chins than Folley (Ettiene) and boxing matches to guys with much less skill/durability (Shufford,Meehan). Since the version of Folley who fought Muhammad had just beaten Bonavena, a guy who hit as hard as Brewster and brought on a lot more pressure, Folley still had the goods at that point to outbox Mr. 15 punches a round in Lamon.

Sanders was NOT larger framed, faster, nor as skilled as Williams. Any of the posters here can simply go to Youtube and look at the Williams-Liston fights and any Sanders fight. You are simply not telling the truth. Lefties couldn't get title fights? You say this in the same thread that is discussing the merits of Karl Mildenberger as a title challenger!

DF wrote, "Since the version of Folley who fought Muhammad had just beaten Bonavena, a guy who hit as hard as Brewster and brought on a lot more pressure, Folley still had the goods at that point to outbox Mr. 15 punches a round in Lamon."

Folley had fought Bonavena over TWO years prior to fighting Ali. That version of Bonavena had 8 pro fights. That Folley lost to Brian London 8 months after fighting Ali probably tells a lot more about where Folley was in his career at the time of the Ali fight.

..re:john galt..why would anyone select a user name from one of the most gawd-awful novels ever published in the english language????

Why do you care?

I think he cares because he is more of an Engels and Marx fan.

Oh right, b/c thinking Ayn Rand is crap= COMMUNIST!!

DF wrote: "Oh right, b/c thinking Ayn Rand is crap= COMMUNIST!!"

What is it about Ayn Rand that bothers you Dempsey?

John Galt wrote:DF wrote: "Oh right, b/c thinking Ayn Rand is crap= COMMUNIST!!"

What is it about Ayn Rand that bothers you Dempsey?

I don't waste time thinking about her. As to my opinion of her work, I think it's crap.

I think she was hot. So deal with that DF !

Robinson wrote:I think she was hot. So deal with that DF !

To each his own . . .

So long as you don't start posting Thatcher and Bronwyn Bishop
pics...I wont be making any happies in my pants.

current eras are probably never realized as being
great. specific fights: yes, but eras: no. even in the
seventies' forums, had there been any, probably
lots of ali bashers and frazier critics would have
been around. claiming that the louis and marciano
time was way better. that is the nature of human
memory.

reminds of teachers. we definitely have made some
progress in human knowledge over the last 2.ooo
years, yet teachers throughout this time claim that
pupils get dumber and dumber each year ... same
phenomenon.