BoxRec

I thinks its a shame for Frazier because he was a great fighter but he was in the best heavyweight era with Foreman and Ali and i was just wondering how u guys thought hee would compare with fighters now a days
Personally i think he would beat Wlad because his chins a bit dodgy and Joe had real dynamite but lose to Vitali who has a granite chin.

I think he definitely has problems with Vitali, but once VK started sucking wind as he often times does, Joe would not have let him off the hook. Frazier would probably either take a competitive UD or else make VK quit in a later round.

WK would have had a punchers chance, but me thinks that the sight of the charging, snarling Frazier would have made him go in to his shell and clinch and run until he either got caught or DQ'd. Frazier's chin really was pretty good. Many under rate it because of the nature of his loss to Foremen, but while Wlad is a very hard puncher, I don't think he punches as hard as Foreman, and mroe importantly doesn't have the strong will and determination of George.

dangerousjohnny wrote:It's hard to see him having much success with today's crop of giant-sized heavies.

Both Klitscho's would have a field day with Fraizer
Chris Byrd would easily outbox him for 12 or 15 rounds, possibly stopping him late
Sam Peter would do what Foreman did

Fraizer would beat the likes of Calvin Brock, Oliver McCall, Gomez, etc... but I don't think he'd be a top-5 today

Are you serious? How could he beat the solid 230 lb Gomez? Not only big and strong but a graceful southpaw as well.

dangerousjohnny wrote:

The Great John L wrote:
Are you serious? How could he beat the solid 230 lb Gomez? Not only big and strong but a graceful southpaw as well.

You're forgetting that Fraizer had heart, Gomez does not... plus Gomez is not strong enough to keep Joe off him

Yeah I forgot that Gomez doesn't have heart like the Klitcshkos and Iggy.

He' do almost exactly the same,he'd get to the top of the mountain and eventually get worn down

dangerousjohnny wrote:It's hard to see him having much success with today's crop of giant-sized heavies.

Both Klitscho's would have a field day with Fraizer
Chris Byrd would easily outbox him for 12 or 15 rounds, possibly stopping him late
Sam Peter would do what Foreman did

Fraizer would beat the likes of Calvin Brock, Oliver McCall, Gomez, etc... but I don't think he'd be a top-5 today

I guess this guy has never seen the great Joe Frazier on film....With Comments like these, I do two things:
a. Ignore it
b. or laugh

Frazier would clean house. Chris Byrd? Frazier beat better and slicker boxers (including one guy named Cassius)

The Klitschkos are in the realm of Foreman power-wise but lack both the aggresiveness of George and the punch which was George's key to success . . .the uppercut. Frazier had everything Brewster had vs Wlad in the first fight but much better boxing skills,speed, and defense. Vitali could have some early success but would get worn down late, as he doesn't have the stamina to keep a prime Frazier off of him.

Sam Peter? People correctly call Peter a poor man's Tua. Tua was a poor man's Frazier.

dempseyfire wrote:Frazier would clean house.

- Maybe for a short while in the cruiser division.

Joe had health problems which gave him a short prime on the scale of Tyson. Until I see another 200 lb heavy come along and clean out the challengers and clowns post haste in the manner Joe did, it's assumed the nature of the division has changed and Joe has to move down.

Oh my word.

vitali was battered by a Old passed it Lewis who took a prime Vitali as a replacement.

Vitali would probably not even see the final bell against Frazier.

Byrd, Toney and Jones were naturally smaller men than Frazier and had some success in the division in recent times. None of them come close to Joe Frazier.

Joe's a true great and however you want to play it keep him as he is, pump him full of the same juice these guys are on today... make it 12 rounds, 15 rounds... doesn't matter, Frazier would be champion today. Vitali in his pomp would be a great fight... but Frazier would do what Peter couldn't and stop Wlad.

Ezzard wrote:Byrd, Toney and Jones were naturally smaller men than Frazier and had some success in the division in recent times. None of them come close to Joe Frazier.

Joe's a true great and however you want to play it keep him as he is, pump him full of the same juice these guys are on today... make it 12 rounds, 15 rounds... doesn't matter, Frazier would be champion today. Vitali in his pomp would be a great fight... but Frazier would do what Peter couldn't and stop Wlad.

- Toney has been no more than a journeyman in the division at best, and Jones had his single, prearranged win against Ruiz wearing Nady's cuffs.

Byrd is a borderline great in this era down to his cute, southpaw stylings. He's smart enough to know he can't afford to bull anyone around.

Oscar Bonavena and Standers were able to bull Joe around. Joe is a powerful man in his own right and had enough strength to stick himself into 29 yr old Ali's chest for the whole of their fight, and neither could stand directly against the strength of George who was a big man in training to become a truly Big Man.

Fair point about the juice, but we know that Joe would start off in the cruiser division. He was overweight when he started boxing, but by '66 he was dipping into the 190s. 200-205 was his best prime weight. The only win he has over a quality big man is Buster Mathis who was primarily a boxer, not a slugger or a brawler.

I'd like to think even the most vociferous Klitschko and Lewis critics would admit they are a class above Buster. What the critics have been blinkered about is that these BIG heavies are the rule today, not the rare exception in Joe's day. And they all know that all it takes is one punch.

Yes, Joe from around 69-71 would be a heckuva fight against the brothers, but he wouldn't be the favorite and likely the only flush shots he lands will be body shots. He'll be easy to tie up, bull around, and open to thunderous counters. I'd actually fancy him over Chagaev at this point if that's any consolation, but Chagaev appears to be ill, so I'm damning Joe with faint praise as it were.

You chaps need to email everyone when the next 200 lb dominant heavy champ shows up. Leon just never really cut the mustard if you know what I mean. We've all fallen asleep waiting for this mythical beast to make his return.

Broughton

I think Holyfield would have been really no more than a 200lb fighter back in the 1960s. He would be champion today...

What Toney and Jones did was go the distance with these giants (I agree with your assessment of them at HW) and in doing so prove that these giants are not going to crush everyone under 200...

Some people think Peter is going to pulp Frazier. I don't think the evidence suggests that he would.

Sam 'The Blob' Peter dropped Wlad. Frazier would finish him.

Byrd would lose to Smokin' Joe.

Vitali gets a raw deal on this forum. I think he would have been a big test for any of the past greats. Wlad too, but he has an achilles heel.

I don't necessarily subscribe to the bigger is alwasy better in the HW division but I do think it's a valid argument worth considering.

If you're interested here's a link to a fun exercise somebody posted a while back.

http://forum.boxrec.com/viewtopic.php?f ... =shilstone

dangerousjohnny wrote:Don't forget Fraizer had a very weak chin...

Oh really? What do you base this opinion on?

dangerousjohnny wrote:

The Great John L wrote:

dangerousjohnny wrote:Don't forget Fraizer had a very weak chin...

Oh really? What do you base this opinion on?

Big George proved that, I suggest you brush up on your classics

I was aware of those fights. That's hardly damning evidence, since George was one of the hardest punchers of all time. Do you have anything else?

I'm not getting involved in another endless weight argument, so I'll just say this about Frazier. His defense, was average at best, and he got hit ALOT. Jerry Quarry practically hit him at will in 2 fights, but just lacked the punch to get the job done. And before anyone goes contradicting me, just recall Smokin Joe's own words "I'll always take a punch to land a punch"

That right there is a strategy that spells disaster against a bigger puncher.

dangerousjohnny wrote:

The Great John L wrote: I was aware of those fights. That's hardly damning evidence, since George was one of the hardest punchers of all time. Do you have anything else?

Did u ever watch his son fight? Also had a weak chin. It's genetic.

Oh I see.

BTW, you forgot the first Bonavena fight. But then again you probably don't know anything about that.

dangerousjohnny wrote:
And he'd be the same today. Holyfield's legacy is largely built on his wins over Tyson. He wouldn't last with either Klitscho, can't see him beating strong Sam Peter, he's already lost to Byrd...

Seamus wrote:I'm not getting involved in another endless weight argument, so I'll just say this about Frazier. His defense, was average at best, and he got hit ALOT. Jerry Quarry practically hit him at will in 2 fights, but just lacked the punch to get the job done. And before anyone goes contradicting me, just recall Smokin Joe's own words "I'll always take a punch to land a punch"

That right there is a strategy that spells disaster against a bigger puncher.

Fair quote but Quarry was a highly skilled fighter and many of these guys aren't.

Few could bomb Joe out back then and few would now.

I do rate the Klit brothers. I think they could have graced any of the golden eras.

Holyfield liked to mix it up too and he has proved that a smaller man can be great in contemporary heavyweight boxing.

Ezzard wrote: Holyfield liked to mix it up too and he has proved that a smaller man can be great in contemporary heavyweight boxing.

- At his age, I wouldn't call Mr. E. H. Field a contemporary heavy. He didn't face any of the monsters starting out and has exactly two wins over big boys.

He was out on his feet a couple of times against 40ish Foreman and hanging on for dear life the last few rounds. He was 1 of 3 against Bowe with a single majority decision, and zer0-1-1 against Lewis.

Guess we'd have to include Douglas as a big boy, but everyone knows Buster never put much in that fight other than making the scratch mark for the start, but a win is a win, so that's technically 3 wins against 3 losses and a tie.

Both Klitchkos and Lewis are bigger/stronger/ better fighters than the mentally limited Bowe who pretty well handled Mr. Field and more prime than 40ish Foreman. That was the best version of comeback Foreman he beat, his best win of his career IMO. Technically and nutritionally, Mr. Field was bigger than Joe with a different style to get back to the subject of the thread.

Mr. Field also had a chance to acclimate in the junior division where he took smaller punches as he learned his trade which is what I am saying Joe would have to do in order to have any chance of heavy success.

And lets not forget the 46yo Evanders' disputed loss to the poster child of modern HWs, the 7 foot 320+ lb Valuev.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:Technically and nutritionally, Mr. Field was bigger than Joe with a different style to get back to the subject of the thread.

How exactly is a fighter "nutritionally bigger" than someone else?

The Great John L wrote:And lets not forget the 46yo Evanders' disputed loss to the poster child of modern HWs, the 7 foot 320+ lb Valuev.

- Oh, sure, the King promoted exhibition round robin decades long serial bouts with endless boring "disputed" decisions starring E. H. Field, Ruiz, Valuev, and all the miscellaneous leftover supporting cast of The Don's stable.

Latest installment to be in theaters near you very soon when the scriptwriters strike is settled.

PureDeeComedy not even the legendary WWE can match.

The 2nd fight with Lewis was close and Holy was far further bryond the brow of the hill than Lennox.

Klitschko aside... Peter, Ruiz, etc would be scrambled by Holy and Joe.

Holy was a 190-200 lb guy who used modern technology and talent to take on the giants. I don't see why any of the past greats couldn't do the same.

Sure styles may mean that a Byrd/Tunney might fair better than a short swarmer but it still can be done (even if you subscribe to bigger is better).

Ezzard wrote:The 2nd fight with Lewis was close and Holy was far further bryond the brow of the hill than Lennox.

Klitschko aside... Peter, Ruiz, etc would be scrambled by Holy and Joe.

- Maybe you didn't get the email, but Mr. E. H. Field did not "scramble" Ruiz in their classic series.

Nor did he ever hold Lewis "close" other than work his way inside his jab on occasion to attempt a fruitless effort to muscle him around. The only drama in the fight was the tension waiting to see if Mr. Field could crack Lewis's chin. He never landed flush and looked out of sorts by a big strong prime heavy using his assets to outbox him.

Easy to talk smack about Peter on the internet, but the only guys who ever handled him are the best in his division and possible HOFers. Peter would knockout many HOFers. He also has a wide swinging clubbing style of young Foreman and he won't have to go looking for Frazier or Mr. Field for that matter.

Look, Frazier one of my favorite fighters, but a fighter has got to know his limitations to paraphrase movie 'ardman Mssrs Eastwood.