BoxRec

Taking the annual Ring ratings, let's use 1973. How would Vitali do against the 1973 version of the following:

Foreman
Ali
Frazier
Norton
Quarry
Lyle
Shavers
Bonavena
Bugner
Ellis
Wepner

My take on these matchups

Foreman stops Vitali on cuts in the middle rounds of a brutal fight.
Ali takes a competitive UD, controlling the fight most of the way.
Frazier loses by late round TKO after he is battered and bloddied in a give and take war. The '73 Joe had lost a step.
Norton rallies late to earn a tough draw.
Quarry gets stopped in the 5th after being dropped and cut.
Lyle forces the fight and takes the early rounds before Vitali stages a late rally but comes up short losing a MD to the determined Lyle.
Shavers rocks Vitali in the 2nd round and drops him twice before the ref stops it in Earnie's favor.
Bonavena tries everything but can't quite reach Vitali enough and loses a lopsided dec.
Bugner fights very well and keeps it close before fading and losing the last few rounds and a close UD.
Ellis is stopped in the middle rounds of a lopsided fight. A prime Ellis would have been a different story, but the 73 version was faded.
Wepner is chopped up and stopped in the 4th on cuts in a totally one sided fight.

The Great John L wrote:My take on these matchups

Foreman stops Vitali on cuts in the middle rounds of a brutal fight.
Ali takes a competitive UD, controlling the fight most of the way.

- Foreman in his pomp is at least a reasonable pick even if in 40+ fights Vitali has only had a single cut. About like saying Foreman runs out of steam and gets KOed in the 8th.

Your take on Ali in 73 is about as limp wristed as it gets. 73 Ali was the most miserable year of his life after a stellar 72 year. He was completely shut down by Norton in two fights and goes the distance against mighty Rudi Lubbers in Indonesia.

You gents really need to give it up trotting out all these ol' dead guys to knock Vitali off his perch. Vitali, like every heavy champ not named Rocky has already had his bad days and risen to the top. Don't make me create my Buckhorse vs Ali thread and make Buckhorse the betting favorite.

Or at least match up 72 Ali and give the ol' guy a chance.

The only guys Vitali is clearly beating is Wepner and the faded 73 version of Ellis. A Shavers fight can go either way with perhaps the more durable Vitali being a slight favorite. I think Bonavena's awkward style and constant pressure, along with his excellent chin, would wear Vitali out down the stretch. Quarry would have trouble early but adjust his gameplan and plug away quick in and out counters to Vitali's rib cage to score a late TKO. Lyle and Foreman bomb him out within 7. Norton also a late TKO. Ali and Bugner would both score TKO wins on cuts.

I think you're over-rating Vitali after the Gomez fight John L. When has Vitali even faced a prime fighter with a punch and a good jab with excellent stamina like Norton??? I haven't seen Vitali display anything to suggest he could beat the greats of the past except getting grounded down by the one great fighter he ever faced( Lennox) who was way past his best and out of shape, and beat a bunch of overweight C-graders like Sanders,Peter, and Johnson. In addition, both Klitschkos have a serious vulnerability to cuts, which in an era of very fast guys with the ability to SNAP their shots (something the likes of Tony Thompson,Brock, and Gomez just do not do) would have their faces running red in many fights.

This is like taking the 2009 Triple A homerun king and saying he could hit balls out of the park vs Gibson and Ryan.

dempseyfire wrote:I think you're over-rating Vitali after the Gomez fight John L.

Actually, I don't think Vitali really looked that good against Gomez. I would agree that the current version of Vitali would probably only beat the faded Ellis and the clumsy Wepner, but a younger Vitali would have presented some problems for most of these guys. The '73 version of Quarry was not the same guy as the '69 version and it's hard to imagine him getting past Vitali's arm punches. The same could be said of Ringo, who was also not at his peak, and would have struggled with Vitali's Calzaghe like shots. Frazier was also a few steps below his best, although I guess I could still see a faded Joe making Vitali want to quit, it's just a matter of whether he could do it before he took too many shots.

Bugner was a very good fighter, and could have pulled it out against Klitschko, and yes I could easily see Norton beating Vitali, but I just can't see it being easy. We're really not that far off, except I think a few of these guys (Quarry, Frazier and Bonavena) were not at their best at EOY '73.

The Great John L wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:I think you're over-rating Vitali after the Gomez fight John L.

Actually, I don't think Vitali really looked that good against Gomez. I would agree that the current version of Vitali would probably only beat the faded Ellis and the clumsy Wepner, but a younger Vitali would have presented some problems for most of these guys. The '73 version of Quarry was not the same guy as the '69 version and it's hard to imagine him getting past Vitali's arm punches. The same could be said of Ringo, who was also not at his peak, and would have struggled with Vitali's Calzaghe like shots. Frazier was also a few steps below his best, although I guess I could still see a faded Joe making Vitali want to quit, it's just a matter of whether he could do it before he took too many shots.

Bugner was a very good fighter, and could have pulled it out against Klitschko, and yes I could easily see Norton beating Vitali, but I just can't see it being easy. We're really not that far off, except I think a few of these guys (Quarry, Frazier and Bonavena) were not at their best at EOY '73.

Fair enough. I think Vitali is a very good fighter, but I can't fathom the talk of him (of course by others, not you) being one of the greats and beating the likes of a prime Frazier, I don't remember many fans Pavlik or Cotto after they had beaten a slew of top contenders (and better fighters than Vitali has beaten) claiming they would beat Hagler and Pryor respectively. People make way too much of a big deal over the fact he's 6'7. Willard was 6'6 and had all of the attributes Vitali had (athletic,big punch,durable) but the difference is he was in a much deeper era filled with fighters who actually got into fighting shape before championship bouts. I don't recall seeing any man-boobs in those pre-fight photos with the fighters posing circa 1917

dempseyfire wrote:Fair enough. I think Vitali is a very good fighter, but I can't fathom the talk of him (of course by others, not you) being one of the greats and beating the likes of a prime Frazier, I don't remember many fans Pavlik or Cotto after they had beaten a slew of top contenders (and better fighters than Vitali has beaten) claiming they would beat Hagler and Pryor respectively. People make way too much of a big deal over the fact he's 6'7. Willard was 6'6 and had all of the attributes Vitali had (athletic,big punch,durable) but the difference is he was in a much deeper era filled with fighters who actually got into fighting shape before championship bouts. I don't recall seeing any man-boobs in those pre-fight photos with the fighters posing circa 1917

Well except maybe Porky Dan Flynn and Willie Meehan.

I think if more people posted about fighters you probably would see more claims about current fighters, as we do with Mayweather. But everyone seems to focus in on the HWs which leads to these Klitschko threads.

It's absolutely true that Klitschko is not all-time material, However, many of the opponents listed here aren't, either, & several are out-of-prime in '73. My projections...

Foreman TKO4 Klitschko

Ali UD12 Klitschko

Frazier MD12 Klitschko

Norton UD12 Klitschko

Klitschko UD12 Quarry

Lyle TKO6 Klitschko

Klitschko KO6 Shavers

Klitschko SD12 Bonavena

Klitschko UD12 Bugner

Klitschko TKO8 Ellis

Klitschko TKO11 Wepner

Klitschko's Record: 6-5-0 (3 KO's)

I had the hardest time selecting a victor in Klitschko's pairings with Quarry & Bonavena, each of which I could envision going either way, but I slightly favour Klitschko at that stage of Quarry & Bonavena's careers. He does reasonably well, as you can see, overall. I just don't think as much of him as I traditionally have his currently out-of-favour brother, who's always struck me as the more fluid, capable fighter --- durability notwithstanding. Vitali has always been pretty clumsy & robotic, with little or no variety in his assault.

Tough bastard, I'll give him that.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:It's absolutely true that Klitschko is not all-time material, However, many of the opponents listed here aren't, either, & several are out-of-prime in '73. My projections...

Foreman TKO4 Klitschko

Ali UD12 Klitschko

Frazier MD12 Klitschko

Norton UD12 Klitschko

Klitschko UD12 Quarry

Lyle TKO6 Klitschko

Klitschko KO6 Shavers

Klitschko SD12 Bonavena

Klitschko UD12 Bugner

Klitschko TKO8 Ellis

Klitschko TKO11 Wepner

Klitschko's Record: 6-5-0 (3 KO's)

I had the hardest time selecting a victor in Klitschko's pairings with Quarry & Bonavena, each of which I could envision going either way, but I slightly favour Klitschko at that stage of Quarry & Bonavena's careers. He does reasonably well, as you can see, overall. I just don't think as much of him as I traditionally have his currently out-of-favour brother, who's always struck me as the more fluid, capable fighter --- durability notwithstanding. Vitali has always been pretty clumsy & robotic, with little or no variety in his assault.

Tough bastard, I'll give him that.

Quarry was past it by 73 but remember in that year he blitzed Shavers in 1 and schooled Lyle over 12 great rounds. I think Jerry at that point still had enough to outpoint a fatiguing Vitali over 12.

One note about Jerry that always puzzled me, was how his physique seemed to change overnight from being completly ripped and muscular in the late 60s, to suddenly soft and pudgy by 1970-71, all the while weighing in the same range of 194-205. And he was still in his mid 20s . . .just boggles my mind. Did he have some odd physical condition like Don Cockell had?

Good point about Quarry putting in excellent efforts against dangerous foes in Shavers & Lyle. I certainly had a tough time, as stated, picking between he & Klitschko.

As for Quarry's physique, I really haven't researched it. A loss of muscle-mass will result in increased body fat percentage, resulting in a softer look, even if weight doesn't significantly change. Quarry never struck me as especially muscled, though. You'd have to think diet. Boxers live pretty clean lives, so perhaps something healthy was consumed in unhealthy proportions. Fruit can often weaken a ripped physique, if it's taken in large quantities over an extended period.

The Great John L wrote:My take on these matchups

Foreman stops Vitali on cuts in the middle rounds of a brutal fight.
Ali takes a competitive UD, controlling the fight most of the way.
Frazier loses by late round TKO after he is battered and bloddied in a give and take war. The '73 Joe had lost a step.
Norton rallies late to earn a tough draw.
Quarry gets stopped in the 5th after being dropped and cut.
Lyle forces the fight and takes the early rounds before Vitali stages a late rally but comes up short losing a MD to the determined Lyle.
Shavers rocks Vitali in the 2nd round and drops him twice before the ref stops it in Earnie's favor.
Bonavena tries everything but can't quite reach Vitali enough and loses a lopsided dec.
Bugner fights very well and keeps it close before fading and losing the last few rounds and a close UD.
Ellis is stopped in the middle rounds of a lopsided fight. A prime Ellis would have been a different story, but the 73 version was faded.
Wepner is chopped up and stopped in the 4th on cuts in a totally one sided fight.

I can't argue with these results here. I pretty much would figure the fight to
play out like that. Though I have not watched a great deal of Vitali of late.

Foreman and Shavers knock him out.
Frazier either stops him late or wins an easy decision.
Ali pitches a shutout.
Norton almost pitches a shutout.
Bugner, Quarry and Lyle wins something like 8-4.
Ellis was fading by 1973 and Klitschko would probably beat him by that point.
Bonavena is a tough call. He was starting to slide, but may have had enough to win.

Wepner would be similar to the Corrie Sanders fight and Klitschko probably wins by late round TKO.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Good point about Quarry putting in excellent efforts against dangerous foes in Shavers & Lyle. I certainly had a tough time, as stated, picking between he & Klitschko.

As for Quarry's physique, I really haven't researched it. A loss of muscle-mass will result in increased body fat percentage, resulting in a softer look, even if weight doesn't significantly change. Quarry never struck me as especially muscled, though. You'd have to think diet. Boxers live pretty clean lives, so perhaps something healthy was consumed in unhealthy proportions. Fruit can often weaken a ripped physique, if it's taken in large quantities over an extended period.

I think Quarry like many fighters liked to party.

The worse dieted, over partying, biggest bunch of insomniacs I
have ever known have been AIS cyclists, runners, top level kickboxers,
MMAers and even a decent boxer on national level.

I think the party hard, fight hard life style works while in your 20s, but
slowly takes its toll in later life. This can perhaps explain why some fighters-
athletes deteriote so much in their middle years.

Sure the 1980s had its coke parties for athletes, but boxers were not
free of drugs and drink prior to this, and I have read that Quarry was true
to his Irish heritage.

Foreman TKO7 Vitali - Both men lands a lot of leather, but Foreman's more powerful shots stop Vitali in the 7th.
Ali UD15 Vitali - I think this one is actually closer than some people see it, although Ali wins by a clear decision.
Frazier MD15 Vitali - A fight that could go either way, but I think Frazier lands a huge left hook that stuns Vitali late in the fight, and rallies to win the last few rounds.
Norton SD15 Vitali - Norton could win this by a wider margin, but I think Vitali hurts him badly at one stage.
Vitali SD15 Quarry - This is a seriously hard pick, but I think Vitali's size is a real advantage here and he fights smart to take a close decision in a fight that could go either way.
Vitali UD15 Lyle - A close call, but I don't think Lyle wins this on points, and Lyle failed to stop lesser fighters than Vitali. If Vitali fights smart it is his to lose.
Vitali KO6 Shavers - It's a KO either way for sure. If Vitali weathers the first few rounds I think he wears Shavers down and stops him in the middle rounds, although he does go down once.
Vitali UD15 Bonavena - Tricky matchup, but I think Vitali takes a clear decision here.
Bugner SD15 Vitali - Again, a close call that could go either way. Neither fighter goes down, both are hurt at stages. This would be an excellent fight.
Vitali TKO9 Ellis - There are lots of close rounds, but Vitali wears down his much smaller opponent, stopping him on his feet.
Vitali TKO12 Wepner - Vitali wins this fights clearly, well ahead on points at the time of the stoppage.

Vitali's record 7(3)-5(1)

im sorry but some of the early guys saying that vitali beats frazier is sooooo wrong

vitali is wooded , slow and cant fight at a pace....he has a chin though no doubt and he is tough

not tough enough for smokin jow though

frazier batters , cuts vitali in a 1 sided beating that stopped in 10

Hey GI can you give a little more detail on the Lyle vs K outcome and Shavers vs K.....is this all about the chin? That's my guess but just wondering if you see a style issue as well. I'm thinkin' strictly chin myself. Your guesses seem fairly reasonable to me.

IMO..

Foreman - Lose by KO
Ali - Lose by TKO
Frazier - Lose by KO
Norton - Lose by UD
Quarry - Win by UD
Lyle - Win by UD
Shavers - Lose by KO
Bonavena - Lose by UD
Bugner - Win UD
Ellis - Win UD
Wepner - Win UD

Imo only..

FRAZIER GET KNOCKED OUT BY BITCHSKO????

Gimme a fuckin breakin!

HomicideHenry wrote:FRAZIER GET KNOCKED OUT BY BITCHSKO????

Gimme a fuckin breakin!

If you're referring to Observer's post, I think he's saying Klitschko would be KO'd by Frazier.

Sure, Buzz. I think Lyle & Klitschko would be an epic, as both were big punchers who were very much available to be hit --- though Lyle could box & move a bit, whereas Klitschko is very stiff, for mine. Lyle kept his hands too low not to get whacked by a big man with superior range, anyhow. Both are getting struck hard, & struck often. In the end, I think Lyle is going to cut him or discourage him with his power. Possibly, he has to get off the deck to do so, as he did against Shavers. Entertaining, if unsightly, fight.

As for Shavers, I think he's terribly, terribly over-rated, & I don't think he's the class to best Klitschko at his peak. He gives up a lot of size, Klitschko can take a hell of a shot (not saying for a minute Shavers couldn't put him out with a well-timed shot, but Klitschko is tough), & he's going to get hit first by the taller, rangier Klitschko. Shavers isn't any quicker on the front-foot, really, & his stamina was suspect. I don't like his chin, either. Klitschko is going to land on him, it's just a question of whether Shavers can absorb it. I say no.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:FRAZIER GET KNOCKED OUT BY BITCHSKO????

Gimme a fuckin breakin!

If you're referring to Observer's post, I think he's saying Klitschko would be KO'd by Frazier.

Sure, Buzz. I think Lyle & Klitschko would be an epic, as both were big punchers who were very much available to be hit --- though Lyle could box & move a bit, whereas Klitschko is very stiff, for mine. Lyle kept his hands too low not to get whacked by a big man with superior range, anyhow. Both are getting struck hard, & struck often. In the end, I think Lyle is going to cut him or discourage him with his power. Possibly, he has to get off the deck to do so, as he did against Shavers. Entertaining, if unsightly, fight.

As for Shavers, I think he's terribly, terribly over-rated, & I don't think he's the class to best Klitschko at his peak. He gives up a lot of size, Klitschko can take a hell of a shot (not saying for a minute Shavers couldn't put him out with a well-timed shot, but Klitschko is tough), & he's going to get hit first by the taller, rangier Klitschko. Shavers isn't any quicker on the front-foot, really, & his stamina was suspect. I don't like his chin, either. Klitschko is going to land on him, it's just a question of whether Shavers can absorb it. I say no.

If you don't think Vitali can box and move you're crazy, that's how he shut out Peter and beat the tar out of Sanders, because both were trying to bomb on him and he made them miss and pay for it numerous times.

I'm not gonna go with 1973 specifically, I'll just go with prime vs. prime versions of all these fighters and Vitali...

Foreman TKO8 Vitali - This would be a classic and brutal fight with Vitali unable to get distance and outbox Foreman and thus, engaging him in an all out war of attrition. Vitali hurts Foreman several times in a give and take battle and has the advantage early over the smaller Foreman but eventually Big George's back-breaking punches wear Klitschko down and stop him where others would find an impossibility in doing so. Vitali is a massive puncher, but Foreman was an absolute monster in terms of power, I think he could probably still KTFO many fighters today.

Ali WUD Vitali - Vitali has trouble with exceptionally quick fighters and Ali is one of the quickest ever at HW, if not THE quickest. Like with Foreman, Vitali would give Ali shaky moments throughout the fight with his power and Ali's relative openness, coupled with the fact that Ali would be in range of Vitali a lot more than he ever was against any of his career opposition. Despite this, however, Ali would be able to adjust and land in a high enough volume to outland Vitali cleanly and take a very close decision where Ali isn't looking so pretty afterward.

Vitali TKO9 Frazier - I've said it a few times recently but Vitali's style reminds me a bit of a cross between Foreman's and Ali's styles. He's deceptively evasive and quick on his feet and only looks lumbering based on his mass. He keeps his hands low and is good at making opponents miss while he counter-punches them into oblivion, but if he's feeling confident, will come forward and engage his opponent directly and violently. Unfortunately for Frazier, he lost to both Ali and Foreman, ad I think he loses to Vitali too. Frazier would shake up Vitali early with his own deceptive closing speed and excellent combinations and Vitali would struggle to find his rhythm but after a couple rounds Vitali would begin timing him coming in then grappling with him as soon as he gets inside. It wouldn't be pretty at first but it will tire Frazier out very quickly, slowing him down just enough to eventually make the fight look like Frazier's demolitions at the hands of Foreman, only less quickly and violently.

Vitali KO5 Norton - Ken Norton is one of the most overrated fighters in history, largely based off of his close fights with Ali, whom Norton was specifically trained to beat using Ali's vulnerabilities that Norton's trainer recognized on tape. Ken Norton was a big and physically very strong fighter who gave Ali and Holmes and others difficulty based purely on physicality. Vitali, however, wouldn't be intimidated by Norton in the least and would beat the ever-loving-shit out of Ken, again, much like Foreman did, only for an extended period of time due to Vitali's patience.

Vitali KO4 Quarry - Quarry was a tough fighter who came up short against his best opposition. He would against Vitali too.

Vitali KO9 Lyle - Where Foreman went to war with Lyle, Vitali would evade him early and box him until Lyle began tiring and stop him late. Lyle would occasionally trouble Vitali with his power and athleticism, but Vitali would be too skilled and powerful overall and wear him down.

Vitali KO4 Shavers - Shavers is another highly overrated fighter. His biggest issue is his chin and after eating a few shots and being momentarily stunned Vitali would happily prove that point again.

The rest I won't even bother with, simply because it would consist of me trying to somehow guess when Vitali would stop them, which he most certainly would.

The Great John L wrote:Taking the annual Ring ratings, let's use 1973. How would Vitali do against the 1973 version of the following:

Foreman
Ali
Frazier
Norton
Quarry
Lyle
Shavers
Bonavena
Bugner
Ellis
Wepner

Neither of the Klitschko brothers would be competitve with even the worst of the 70's. Neither would any other heavyweight today. Too big, too weak of heart and chin. Today's guys would have no chance in ANY previous era.

-Rick Farris

Diamond WEAPON wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:FRAZIER GET KNOCKED OUT BY BITCHSKO????

Gimme a fuckin breakin!

If you're referring to Observer's post, I think he's saying Klitschko would be KO'd by Frazier.

Sure, Buzz. I think Lyle & Klitschko would be an epic, as both were big punchers who were very much available to be hit --- though Lyle could box & move a bit, whereas Klitschko is very stiff, for mine. Lyle kept his hands too low not to get whacked by a big man with superior range, anyhow. Both are getting struck hard, & struck often. In the end, I think Lyle is going to cut him or discourage him with his power. Possibly, he has to get off the deck to do so, as he did against Shavers. Entertaining, if unsightly, fight.

As for Shavers, I think he's terribly, terribly over-rated, & I don't think he's the class to best Klitschko at his peak. He gives up a lot of size, Klitschko can take a hell of a shot (not saying for a minute Shavers couldn't put him out with a well-timed shot, but Klitschko is tough), & he's going to get hit first by the taller, rangier Klitschko. Shavers isn't any quicker on the front-foot, really, & his stamina was suspect. I don't like his chin, either. Klitschko is going to land on him, it's just a question of whether Shavers can absorb it. I say no.

If you don't think Vitali can box and move you're crazy, that's how he shut out Peter and beat the tar out of Sanders, because both were trying to bomb on him and he made them miss and pay for it numerous times.

You must be ten years old.

Quarry doesnt lose to a guy who spits the bit between rounds to Chris Byrd with a sore shoulder.
He wouldnt let himself.
Klitschko beats Chuck. Thats it.

Diamond WEAPON wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:FRAZIER GET KNOCKED OUT BY BITCHSKO????

Gimme a fuckin breakin!

If you're referring to Observer's post, I think he's saying Klitschko would be KO'd by Frazier.

Sure, Buzz. I think Lyle & Klitschko would be an epic, as both were big punchers who were very much available to be hit --- though Lyle could box & move a bit, whereas Klitschko is very stiff, for mine. Lyle kept his hands too low not to get whacked by a big man with superior range, anyhow. Both are getting struck hard, & struck often. In the end, I think Lyle is going to cut him or discourage him with his power. Possibly, he has to get off the deck to do so, as he did against Shavers. Entertaining, if unsightly, fight.

As for Shavers, I think he's terribly, terribly over-rated, & I don't think he's the class to best Klitschko at his peak. He gives up a lot of size, Klitschko can take a hell of a shot (not saying for a minute Shavers couldn't put him out with a well-timed shot, but Klitschko is tough), & he's going to get hit first by the taller, rangier Klitschko. Shavers isn't any quicker on the front-foot, really, & his stamina was suspect. I don't like his chin, either. Klitschko is going to land on him, it's just a question of whether Shavers can absorb it. I say no.

If you don't think Vitali can box and move you're crazy, that's how he shut out Peter and beat the tar out of Sanders, because both were trying to bomb on him and he made them miss and pay for it numerous times.

Sanders? Peter?

Please, Weapon. Please.