Was Joe Frazier prime when he faced Foreman in 1973?

[abdelfadeeli]

He was in a hospital and in pretty bad shape after the fight. High blood pressure and his kidney's were affected as well. He also had Arthritis. He pushed his body way past it's comfort/health zone. I don't think he was ever that Frazier again. As for his eye problem. Gypsy Joe Harris said that he (and a select few) knew of Joe's bad eye, well before the Ali fight. "The Fight Of The Century" was the greatest fight of Frazier's career,but it took something out of him that could never be replenished.
Frazier weighed 10 pounds heavier in the Foreman fight than he did in his win over Ali. After winning the "Fight Of The Century", Frazier felt like he was God and started partying and eating, and stopped training seriously. Foreman was probably sent to him by God to teach him a lesson.
Foreman himself even admitted this. Frazier had climbed his Everest by beating Ali. Durham wanted Frazier to retire. Frazier was in the hospital for a month and he was seriously ill. He almost died.
There's a lot more evidence the Fight Of The Century took something out of him. I just wanted to keep it short though.

[elmersalsa]

No! He wasn't!

[Ezzard]

I think a lot of it was psychological. Ali claimed Frazier got a bad decision because he was in cahoots with whitey. This tainted the victory for Joe with many of leading black figures in the entertainment world not accepting him or his win. There's the famous moment in Tokyo when a touring Tina Turner refused to meet him.

It seems that Frazier didn't get to enjoy his victory over Ali. I think perhaps this ground him down as much as anything. Took away the spark in training.

And as a swarmer he was always going to burn brightly for a shorter time.

[Broomhall]

1. Frazier was 27 in the so called FOTC so young and fit and strong
2. If he had the eye problem long before this fight then he had learned to cope with it well as he beat Ali
3. The fight with foreman was 2 years later, plenty of time for Frazier to recover, a young and fit athlete.
4. 10 lbs gain for heavyweights is no big deal, especially when you consider he was fighting a much bigger man in Foreman
5. If he took Foreman lightly and didnt train this doesnt mean he was past it
6. He was unbeaten having beaten Ali, Stander and Daniels (where he weighed more) so would have been very confident of steam rolling Foreman.

[abdelfadeeli]

1. Frazier was 27 in the so called FOTC so young and fit and strong
2. If he had the eye problem long before this fight then he had learned to cope with it well as he beat Ali
3. The fight with foreman was 2 years later, plenty of time for Frazier to recover, a young and fit athlete.
4. 10 lbs gain for heavyweights is no big deal, especially when you consider he was fighting a much bigger man in Foreman
5. If he took Foreman lightly and didnt train this doesnt mean he was past it
6. He was unbeaten having beaten Ali, Stander and Daniels (where he weighed more) so would have been very confident of steam rolling Foreman.

Frazier's eye got even worse after the Ali fight. You don't recover from everything. You even pointed out who Frazier faced prior to Foreman. You forgot to mention how much time went by. I'll save you the trouble. Between the Fotc and Frazier-Foreman I. Frazier faced two people. Two people in the span of 2+ years. As a matter of fact between November 1970 and January 1973 Frazier only had 26 rounds under his belt. In 4 years Frazier only had 26 rounds. Something forgotten about the Fotc is Joe Frazier was more inactive by March of 1971 than Ali. Ali had 18 rounds in the previous 6 months, Frazier had fought less than 2 rounds in the previous year. Frazier was at his best in late 68-70.

[HomicideHenry]

He was about as prime as you could get---- considering he had eye problems going into the 1960s--- the fact that he defeated Ali in the FOTC rather conclusively shows that the eye wasn't too much of an issue. Following Ali, one could make the argument that he wasn't emotionally/mentally the same man cus he already reached the peak.

[Ambling Alp II]

Here is my challenge, name the the losing fighter of any fight. I will make an excuse for him that is as reasonable as saying Frazier was past his his prime when fought Foreman in 1973.

[elmersalsa]

The great Smokin' Joe Frazier LEFT IT ALL THERE IN THE FIGHT OF THE CENTURY. The signs were there that he was not the same fighter. It took a great toll, and it showed. That first fight with the great Muhammad Ali was as BRUTAL as you can get.

He went five rounds with two bums after that, when in his prime, those two bums would have not last two rounds
with him at his very best. That is the way I see it.

[Ezzard]

Broomhall makes a valid point in that an unbeaten HW champion of the world must be a prime fighter. And if he had fought Foreman 2 years earlier we'd have probably still seen a Foreman victory.

But Frazier wouldn't be the first to go off the boil whilst still on the throne.

I'm not sure anyone's comments on the eye mean anything. We'll never know for sure how bad it was.

Frazier was not the 100% swarming monster he had been but he can't have been that far off.

[abdelfadeeli]

Broomhall makes a valid point in that an unbeaten HW champion of the world must be a prime fighter. And if he had fought Foreman 2 years earlier we'd have probably still seen a Foreman victory.

But Frazier wouldn't be the first to go off the boil whilst still on the throne.

I'm not sure anyone's comments on the eye mean anything. We'll never know for sure how bad it was.

Frazier was not the 100% swarming monster he had been but he can't have been that far off.

Ali must've been prime for the fight of the century. Since he was unbeaten and the heavyweight champion.

[Ezzard]

He was.

[Ambling Alp II]

Ali was unbeaten.
He was a heavyweight.
He was not the champion.
He was not in his prime.

I agree that just because someone is undefeated and the champion doesn't automatically mean that he was in his prime. Larry Holmes was not in his prime when he lost to Spinks.

But using the past his prime excuse for Frazier against Foreman the first is time is more than a reach. It's ridiculous.

[man]

joe had two fights after the FOTC and i don't
think he was seen as being shot in these two
KO victories. he was - IMHO - as fast and as
able to take a shot as ever.

it is kind of charming that frazier-friends still
cannot come to terms with foreman knowing
joe's number by heart.

foreman was not as much better as their
record suggests, but his skills and rhythm
were magically tuned to the slightest weak
spots in frazier's game.

[Seamus]

Let's give Joe a pass on this one, along with every other 29 yr old reigning champion who has had at least 29 bouts.

[SenorPipino]

The style of Frazier didn't make for a long prime.
He never looked the same after the first Ali fight. Some of it may have been physical, some of it may have been mental. Wasn't the sharp buzzsaw he was previously when he took on lightly regarded Daniels and Stander.

Frazier was still a pretty good heavy when he met Foreman but past his peak. He did have some impressive outings in Manila and against Quarry in 1974, so he was no washed up specimen in Jamaica.
But Joe's smokin' prime had been extinguished by then.

[Ambling Alp II]

He lost to Foreman because of Foreman's ability and style.

Even Marciano was two older than Frazier when he fought Moore. Marciano fought more often, and took more punishment in his fights than Frazier.
People are grasping at straws when they have to use lame excuses such as mentally was ready, wasn't motivated etc.

You can always make an excuse; Was Jimmy Ellis in his prime when he fought Frazier? He had been off 17 months.

[Broomhall]

He lost to Foreman because of Foreman's ability and style.

Even Marciano was two older than Frazier when he fought Moore. Marciano fought more often, and took more punishment in his fights than Frazier.
People are grasping at straws when they have to use lame excuses such as mentally was ready, wasn't motivated etc.

You can always make an excuse; Was Jimmy Ellis in his prime when he fought Frazier? He had been off 17 months.

I got called "lying scum" and "imbecile" when I offered these opinions-how come you get away with it?

[abdelfadeeli]

He lost to Foreman because of Foreman's ability and style.

Even Marciano was two older than Frazier when he fought Moore. Marciano fought more often, and took more punishment in his fights than Frazier.
People are grasping at straws when they have to use lame excuses such as mentally was ready, wasn't motivated etc.

You can always make an excuse; Was Jimmy Ellis in his prime when he fought Frazier? He had been off 17 months.

That's completely irrelevant to the situation.

[Ambling Alp II]

The part that you highlighted? I was pointing out that he didn't lose because of being past his prime. He clearly wasn't past his prime.

[Ambling Alp II]

He lost to Foreman because of Foreman's ability and style.

Even Marciano was two older than Frazier when he fought Moore. Marciano fought more often, and took more punishment in his fights than Frazier.
People are grasping at straws when they have to use lame excuses such as mentally was ready, wasn't motivated etc.

You can always make an excuse; Was Jimmy Ellis in his prime when he fought Frazier? He had been off 17 months.

I got called "lying scum" and "imbecile" when I offered these opinions-how come you get away with it?

I guess I am considered more sweet and lovable.

I didn't see where someone had said that about you in reference to the whole "Frazier was past his prime" crap. Says something about the person who said it.

One thing that really bothers me about this BS is that it takes away a lot from Foreman's win. Foreman didn't beat a broken down version or a faded version of Frazier.
However, it seems to be one of those things that gets repeated so many times that some people start to believe it. If you just look at the situation, it's as clear as day that the "past his prime" excuse is totally bogus.

[Rexob]

Foreman would have beat Frazier if that first fight was fight of the century! Frazier would never, under any circumstances beat Foreman FULL STOP!!!

[Broomhall]

He lost to Foreman because of Foreman's ability and style.

Even Marciano was two older than Frazier when he fought Moore. Marciano fought more often, and took more punishment in his fights than Frazier.
People are grasping at straws when they have to use lame excuses such as mentally was ready, wasn't motivated etc.

You can always make an excuse; Was Jimmy Ellis in his prime when he fought Frazier? He had been off 17 months.

I got called "lying scum" and "imbecile" when I offered these opinions-how come you get away with it?

I guess I am considered more sweet and lovable.

I didn't see where someone had said that about you in reference to the whole "Frazier was past his prime" crap. Says something about the person who said it.

One thing that really bothers me about this BS is that it takes away a lot from Foreman's win. Foreman didn't beat a broken down version or a faded version of Frazier.
However, it seems to be one of those things that gets repeated so many times that some people start to believe it. If you just look at the situation, it's as clear as day that the "past his prime" excuse is totally bogus.

That is my view really. Foreman fought a good fight, albeit if you designed an opponent as an ideal fit for Foreman you would come up with Frazier

[abdelfadeeli]

He lost to Foreman because of Foreman's ability and style.

Even Marciano was two older than Frazier when he fought Moore. Marciano fought more often, and took more punishment in his fights than Frazier.
People are grasping at straws when they have to use lame excuses such as mentally was ready, wasn't motivated etc.

You can always make an excuse; Was Jimmy Ellis in his prime when he fought Frazier? He had been off 17 months.

I got called "lying scum" and "imbecile" when I offered these opinions-how come you get away with it?

I guess I am considered more sweet and lovable.

I didn't see where someone had said that about you in reference to the whole "Frazier was past his prime" crap. Says something about the person who said it.

One thing that really bothers me about this BS is that it takes away a lot from Foreman's win. Foreman didn't beat a broken down version or a faded version of Frazier.
However, it seems to be one of those things that gets repeated so many times that some people start to believe it. If you just look at the situation, it's as clear as day that the "past his prime" excuse is totally bogus.

The FOTC was massively punishing - it would've been a great finale to a career - and I don't think Joe was ever the same again, his eyes, his posture, his defense, his speed, his endurance. But the fighter that Joe Frazier was - full of heart, full of courage - didn't know when was enough - meant that FOTC was never going to be the end.

[Ambling Alp II]

Yes, the first Ali fight was tough; however fighters have tough fighter all of the time and continue on. Frazier really had not taken an inordinate amount of punishment during his career going into the Foreman fight. Ali looked even better most of the time for the next 4 years after their first fight.

Frazier's speed, endurance etc. was the same for quite a while after the first Ali fight. You don't need 20/20 vision to see the opponent in front of you.
A lot of people see Frazier get crushed by Foreman, and the knee jerk reaction is that he must have been past his prime. Naturally, you don't look that great when you get stopped in two rounds.
However, Frazier wasn't old; he had not take an excessive amount of punishment in his career. He wasn't coming off of a long layoff.
Since there really is no valid excuse, some people resort to the dog ate my homework excuses. He wasn't motivated, lost the fire whatever. boo hoo, poor Joe. No one else ever had to overcome these obstacles.

The truth is he lost because he was fighting Foreman. There is virtually nothing to support the past his prime excuse.

[Ezzard]

He clearly wasn't in the same physical and mental shape that he was in for FOTC. But there isn't much to be gained from pointing this out.

If Joe and George fought the best 100 HWs ever I'd pick Joe to win more than George. But George would win the fight with Joe.