All-time top 10 in EVERY classic division

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 06 Jan 2004, 13:59

Boxingtalk.net has a fantastic classic boxing section, and they have just compiled an all-time top 10 in the eight traditional divisions. Given the recent debate on where Larry Holmes lies in the all-time heavyweight listings, I feel this is quite topical.

Flyweight

1. Jimmy Wilde
(139 points; on all 15 ballots; 12 1st place)

2. Pascual Perez
(121 points; on all 15 ballots; 9 2nd place)

3. Miguel Canto
(96 points; on 14 ballots; 1 1st place)

4. Pancho Villa
(91 points; on all 15 ballots; 1 1st place)

5. Jung-Koo Chang
(62 points; on 12 ballots; 1 2nd place)

6. Fidel LaBarba
(58 points; on 13 ballots; 4 4th place)

7. Benny Lynch
(56 points; on 13 ballots; 1 3rd place)

8. Fighting Harada
(49 points; on 9 ballots; 1 1st place)

9. Ricardo Lopez
(43 points; on 8 ballots; 2 3rd place)

10. Frankie Genaro
(25 points; on 8 ballots; 1 5th place)

Bantamweight

1. Eder Jofre
(136 points; on all 14 ballots; 12 1st place)

2. Carlos Zarate
(98 points; on all 14 ballots; 5 2nd place)

3. Ruben Olivares
(93 points; on all 14 ballots; 2 2nd place)

4. Fighting Harada
(85 points; on all 14 ballots; 2 2nd place)

5. Terry McGovern
(71 points; on 10 ballots; 1 1st place)

6. Manuel Ortiz
(67 points; on 13 ballots; 1 1st place)

7. Panama Al Brown
(59 points; on 14 ballots; 1 2nd place)

8. George Dixon
(45 points; on 9 ballots; 3 4th place)

9. Wilfredo Gomez
(25 points; on 4 ballots; 2 3rd place)

10. Jeff Chandler
(22 points; on 6 ballots; 3 6th place)

Featherweight

1. Willie Pep
(185 points; on all 19 ballots; 16 1st place)

2. Sandy Saddler
(158 points; on all 19 ballots; 2 1st place)

3. Salvador Sanchez
(122 points; on all 19 ballots; 3 2nd place)

4. Henry Armstrong
(113 points; on 14 ballots; 6 2nd place)

5. Alexis Arguello
(87 points; on 17 ballots; 3 3rd place)

6. Abe Attell
(68 points; on 15 ballots; 1 2nd place)

7. Terry McGovern
(50 points; on 13 ballots; 1 3rd place)

8. Azumah Nelson
(45 points; on 9 ballots; 1 4th place)

8. Eusebio Pedroza
(45 points; on 14 ballots; 3 5th place)

10. Vicente Saldivar
(26 points; on 7 ballots; 2 4th place)

Lightweight

1. Roberto Duran
(176 points; on all 18 ballots; 15 1st place)

2. Benny Leonard
(139 points; on all 18 ballots; 1 1st place)

3. Henry Armstrong
(135 points; on 16 ballots; 1 1st place)

4. Ike Williams
(95 points; on 17 ballots; 6 4th place)

5. Pernell Whitaker
(88 points; on 17 ballots; 1 1st place)

6. Joe Gans
(87 points; on 15 ballots; 1 2nd place)

7. Barney Ross
(56 points; on 15 ballots; 3 4th place)

8. Aaron Pryor
(52 points; on 12 ballots; 1 4th place)

9. Tony Canzoneri
(43 points; on 12 ballots; 1 4th place)

10. Alexis Arguello
(38 points; on 13 ballots; 1 5th place)

Welterweight

1. Ray Robinson
(190 points; on all 19 ballots; 19 1st place)

2. Ray Leonard
(163 points; on all 19 ballots; 12 2nd place)

3. Henry Armstrong
(102 points; on 14 ballots; 5 2nd place)

3. Thomas Hearns
(102 points; on 18 ballots; 7 3rd place)

5. Mickey Walker
(94 points; on 17 ballots; 1 2nd place)

6. Emille Griffith
(91 points; on 17 ballots; 5 4th place)

7. Jose Napoles
(75 points; on 16 ballots; 2 4th place)

8. Kid Gavilan
(40 points; on 11 ballots; 4 6th place)

9. Carmen Basilio
(34 points; on 11 ballots; 1 5th place)

10. Jack Britton
(21 points; on 4 ballots; 1 2nd place)

Middleweight

1. Harry Greb
(177 points; on all 20 ballots; 9 1st place)

2. Carlos Monzon
(162 points; on all 20 ballots; 3 1st place)

3. Marvin Hagler
(153 points; on 19 ballots; 2 1st place)

4. Ray Robinson
(151 points; on 17 ballots; 6 1st place)

5. Stanley Ketchel
(88 points; on 17 ballots; 1 3rd place)

6. Roy Jones
(64 points; on 14 ballots; 1 2nd place)

7. Bob Fitzsimmons
(62 points; on 14 ballots; 1 4th place)

8. Mickey Walker
(50 points; on 11 ballots; 1 3rd place)

9. Jake LaMotta
(39 points; on 12 ballots; 1 4th place)

10. Charley Burley
(31 points; on 9 ballots; 1 3rd place)

Light-heavyweight

1. Ezzard Charles
(168 points; on 19 ballots; 11 1st place)

2. Gene Tunney
(147 points; on 19 ballots; 3 1st place)

3. Archie Moore
(141 points; on all 20 ballots; 1 1st place)

4. Michael Spinks
(139 points; on all 20 ballots; 3 1st place)

5. Bob foster
(126 points; on all 20 ballots; 2 2nd place)

6. Sam Langford
(102 points; on 18 ballots; 1 1st place)

7.Billy Conn
(83 points; on all 20 ballots; 1 3rd place)

8. Roy Jones
(78 points; on 17 ballots; 1 1st place)

9. Tommy Loughran
(41 points; on 16 ballots; 1 3rd place)

10. Bob Fitzsimmons
(19 points; on 4 ballots; 1 2nd place)

Heavyweight:

1. Muhammad Ali
(229 points; on all 23 ballots; 22 1st place)

2. Joe Louis
(176; on all 23 ballots; 1 1st place)

3. Larry Holmes
(170 points; on all 23 ballots; 11 2nd place)

4. George Foreman
(120 points; on 22 ballots; 3 3rd place)

5. Jack Johnson
(94 points; on all 20 ballots; 3 3rd place)

6. Jack Dempsey
(89 points; on 17 ballots; 2 2nd place)

7. Sonny Liston
(78 points; on 16 ballots; 1 3rd place)

8. Rocky Marciano
(70 points; on 18 ballots; 1 3rd place)

9. Mike Tyson
(66 points; on 15 ballots; 1 3rd place)

10. Joe Frazier
(51 points; on 20 ballots; 1 5th place)

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 06 Jan 2004, 14:01

Mike Tyson is way too high. The myth still lives on.

JimStone · Post by **JimStone** » 06 Jan 2004, 14:05

No Oscar de la Hoya, is that a surprise or not? I'm not the best when it comes to top 10's, I always have too many names for the list.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 06 Jan 2004, 14:09

By excluding the light-welters and the light-middles, they inevitably exclude some great names like Antonio Cervantes, De La Hoya and even Wilfred Benitez.
And Aaron Pryor, undoubtedly the greatest light-welterweight of all-time, could only make the number eight spot at lightweight.

Hut*Hut · Post by **Hut*Hut** » 06 Jan 2004, 14:25

Overall they were excellent lists...I dont agree with everything, but overall theres nothing outlandish there.

REAL_DEAL · Post by **REAL_DEAL** » 06 Jan 2004, 14:35

wheres hopkins

one of the best middleweights

The_Power · Post by **The_Power** » 06 Jan 2004, 15:06

Them lists arent too bad. Nice to see that Larry Gets some recognition in the lists.

Also, it seems there is one thing fans agree on, Ray Robinson is the #1 welterweight.

However, a bit surprised about Jones at middle, he didnt really achieve legendary status there

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 06 Jan 2004, 15:10

It amazes me how low regard Lewis is held in. He has the most defences after the big 3, and yet Tyson, who had a meagre 8 defences, and got annihilated both times he stepped up to top class, is rated in the top 10.

Balderdash!

The_Power · Post by **The_Power** » 06 Jan 2004, 15:14

also, sorry as a said issue, Liston is far too high for what he achieved, like Tyson, its all about what if's with sonny.

steve689 · Post by **steve689** » 06 Jan 2004, 15:28

bennie wrote:Mike Tyson is way too high. The myth still lives on.

I tend to agree Bennie, also the Ali myth lives on...i'm sorry people but i just can't buy the hype. Just because he kept telling us all he was the greatest too many people started listening too much. Look at the Boxrec record, it says controversial decision alongside FOUR of his seperate wins, add the Henry Cooper split glove incident and the Sonny Liston "phantom punch" and i remain as sceptical as ever folks

beduff · Post by **beduff** » 06 Jan 2004, 16:44

im the biggest mike tyson fan in the world but top ten?no way.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 06 Jan 2004, 16:49

Certainly there seems to be a lack of modern fighters on the list.

Ricardo Lopez is way to low.

Did I miss something or was Chavez not there at all, he should have been there at Lightweight.

Bernard Hopkins should certainly have been there.

I think DLH should have been there somewhere, not high on the list but definately there.

No Trinidad? He didn't have a long career, but I thought a low placing was warranted.

Whislt he was a great fighter, I always find it hard to rank Salvador Sanchez quite that highly mainly due to the fact that we never saw him at his best (more to the point we never saw a prime Sanchez fight a prime Nelson).

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 07 Jan 2004, 07:49

Generaly the list looks pretty sound. I've no problem with Sanchez coming in at No 3 Stu - I think we did see his prime anyway, against another all timer, Wilfredo Gomez. And watch his fights against Danny Lopez, you can't get much better than that.

Speaking of Gomez, he's only number nine, whereas he absolutely destroyed number two rated Zarate ( ok a higher weight, but not by much ).

And yes Chavez should be there somewhere!

I think Tyson deserves a top ten ranking - in his prime he was a truly awesome destroyer, something backed up by the fact he'll likely go down as one of the most famous heavyweight champs of all time.
I think he might've blown a prime Joe Frazier out of the water 8)

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 07 Jan 2004, 07:55

Chavez does seem like an omission, but then the competition at lightweight is truly fierce.

Notice how highly ranked Armstrong is in three weight divisions, he's always been my pick for the greatest of all time.

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 07 Jan 2004, 08:19

Great to see Terrible Terry McGovern in there - rated at both Bantam (5) and Feather (7). Got to admit I am biased however!

Must say there does seem to be excessive deference/credence given to boxers of yesteryear in general.
Having siad that they fought regularly and the best just about always fought each other so it is in many ways understandable.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 07 Jan 2004, 08:56

TerribleTerry wrote:Great to see Terrible Terry McGovern in there - rated at both Bantam (5) and Feather (7). Got to admit I am biased however!.

Always thought your username was out of respect for Terry Norris.

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 07 Jan 2004, 09:20

stujones wrote:
TerribleTerry wrote:Great to see Terrible Terry McGovern in there - rated at both Bantam (5) and Feather (7). Got to admit I am biased however!.
Always thought your username was out of respect for Terry Norris.

My family name is McGovern, so the Brooklyn Terror holds a special place in my heart.
Having said that, the Terry Norris of the early 90's was more then deserving of the Terrible moniker!

Loftgroov · Post by **Loftgroov** » 07 Jan 2004, 13:13

No Shane Mosely at Lightweight???

He was untouchable.

No Lennox Lewis in the top 10???

This is a wind up.

Bob Foster only 5th at Light Heavy?

Er...ok.

Loftgroov · Post by **Loftgroov** » 07 Jan 2004, 13:16

Harry Greb at no.1 middleweight is also absurd.

Most of those fights didn't even reach official decisions.

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 07 Jan 2004, 13:39

Loftgroov wrote:No Shane Mosely at Lightweight???

He was untouchable.

No Lennox Lewis in the top 10???

This is a wind up.

Bob Foster only 5th at Light Heavy?

Er...ok.

That's the thing with some of our modern greats like Mosely, RJJ and De La Hoya. Because they have weight-hopped so much they never make anybodys list of all-time great at one particular weight.

Although Mosely made 8 defences (I think) the opposition wasn't exactly sterling but had he stayed there for the last 3 years and repelled the challenges of Floyd Jnr and ummm umm... Actually I can see why he moved up there wasn't exactly much coming in the way of big fights for him was there? I guess now he would be looking at Freitas too.

Anyway my point was had Shane stayed at Lightweight and remained champ for 6 years he might be up on some all-time Lightweight lists now.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 07 Jan 2004, 14:55

Had Shane reigned as a Lightweight champion at all then he might have made the list.

Shane missed the Lightweight devision completely.

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 07 Jan 2004, 15:09

stujones wrote:Had Shane reigned as a Lightweight champion at all then he might have made the list.

Shane missed the Lightweight devision completely.

Ahem....

http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=004952

You had better be drunk Stu, I'm surprised at you!!!

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 07 Jan 2004, 15:24

Goz wrote:
stujones wrote:Had Shane reigned as a Lightweight champion at all then he might have made the list.

Shane missed the Lightweight devision completely.
Ahem....

http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=004952

You had better be drunk Stu, I'm surprised at you!!!

That has to be may moment of madness here, crikey I've had a few names muddled - now I'm getting weight devisions muddled.

Am I losing it?

I remember an article on Moseley saying a match with Hamed would be impossible because he was really dying at his weight - somehow (even though I know different) I just thought when this thread was up that "he must have been at Superfeather, skipped Lightweight (I knew he skipped one weight) and jumped to Welter.

I temporarily must have forgotton Light Welter - a British forum and I forgot that Light Welterweight didn't exist. Sorry Ricky, Junior and Terry Marsh.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 08 Jan 2004, 06:19

While Mosley is a fantastic fighter there's no way he deserves to crack the top ten lightweights., not with the other great names already in there.
Excellent fighters like Rosario and Chavez also miss out..

But when you look at Shane's record at lightweight, it's obvious he was defending against mostly a bunch of journeymen in a watered down divsion.

steve689 · Post by **steve689** » 08 Jan 2004, 11:50

MightyWarrior wrote:While Mosley is a fantastic fighter there's no way he deserves to crack the top ten lightweights., not with the other great names already in there.
Excellent fighters like Rosario and Chavez also miss out..

Agreed, if Chavez can't make the list then Mosley sure as hell aint in there IMO.