Does Everyone Have Floyd Mayweather In Their Top 20 All Time

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 13 Dec 2007, 15:06

I'm sorry, I don't even see the argument for that fight being a draw.

But, aside from that, I agree that some people are going overboard with Mayweather. But that doesn't mean we should then go to the opposite extreme and practically say that he hasn't done anything. I don't know who I rank higher, Jones or Mayweather, but I think they're around the same area all time. And as I said, Floyd's career isn't over yet.

As you said, there simply haven't been too many legitimately great fighters that Mayweather could have fought. But shouldn't he get credit then, for having tried so hard to go after Oscar? I know he did it for the money, but he was hardly running away from the challenge. I think some boxing fans criticize Mayweather a little too much for his opponent selection, I don't think its been all that bad up to now, all things considered. He's fought the guys who were there for him to fight.

I agree 140 is probably his best weight, but I'm sure he could have stayed at Lightweight longer than he did if he had wanted to. I agree he could never make Lightweight today.

I think you and I agree more than we disagree, except for the question of the De La Hoya fight. I just think we should be a bit more moderate. Its easy to make the case that Floyd isn't nearly as good as Leonard and Duran. I just think we should give Mayweather credit for what he has done, and hopefully his career will carry on from here. I'll be the first to rip Mayweather if he doesn't fight Cotto, for example. But I suspect he will.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 13 Dec 2007, 15:50

dempseyfire wrote: I'm taking that tone b/c a lot of the media and some fans after the Hatton fight, like in this thread, are going overboard and saying Floyd is top 20 PFP of all time, which is ridiculous. I wouldn't rank him on par with Jones Jr yet . . Roy beat two HOFs while they were young, Toney and Hopkins, and an older, past it HOF McCallum. Floyd has beaten ONE HOF, an inactive 34 year old Oscar which I honestly believe could have been scored a draw fairly.

At the same time you're praising Sandy Saddler's career, although his reputation is largely built on going 2-1 against one ageing fighter -- Willie Pep.

We'll talk again in 10, 20 years. I stick to my expectation that PBF will make the top 20, or get close to it. I also believe that RJJ and DLH will make the top 40 or 50. Hopkins.... maybe not quite. His best wins were over a couple of blown-up welterweights, I believe boxing historians will look more critically at this. Mosley is another guy who may well make the top, say, 60.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 13 Dec 2007, 15:53

I Feel Fine wrote:Its easy to make the case that Floyd isn't nearly as good as Leonard and Duran.

Yeah, but Duran is top 5 and Leonard top 10. I wouldnt' put PBF in the same category as these guys -- but probably into the next one.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 13 Dec 2007, 16:05

pundit wrote:
dempseyfire wrote: I'm taking that tone b/c a lot of the media and some fans after the Hatton fight, like in this thread, are going overboard and saying Floyd is top 20 PFP of all time, which is ridiculous. I wouldn't rank him on par with Jones Jr yet . . Roy beat two HOFs while they were young, Toney and Hopkins, and an older, past it HOF McCallum. Floyd has beaten ONE HOF, an inactive 34 year old Oscar which I honestly believe could have been scored a draw fairly.

At the same time you're praising Sandy Saddler's career, although his reputation is largely built on going 2-1 against one ageing fighter -- Willie Pep.

We'll talk again in 10, 20 years. I stick to my expectation that PBF will make the top 20, or get close to it. I also believe that RJJ and DLH will make the top 40 or 50. Hopkins.... maybe not quite. His best wins were over a couple of blown-up welterweights, I believe boxing historians will look more critically at this. Mosley is another guy who may well make the top, say, 60.

Saddler first beat Pep when Willie was 26 years old . . .

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 13 Dec 2007, 16:15

dempseyfire wrote:
pundit wrote:
dempseyfire wrote: I'm taking that tone b/c a lot of the media and some fans after the Hatton fight, like in this thread, are going overboard and saying Floyd is top 20 PFP of all time, which is ridiculous. I wouldn't rank him on par with Jones Jr yet . . Roy beat two HOFs while they were young, Toney and Hopkins, and an older, past it HOF McCallum. Floyd has beaten ONE HOF, an inactive 34 year old Oscar which I honestly believe could have been scored a draw fairly.

At the same time you're praising Sandy Saddler's career, although his reputation is largely built on going 2-1 against one ageing fighter -- Willie Pep.

We'll talk again in 10, 20 years. I stick to my expectation that PBF will make the top 20, or get close to it. I also believe that RJJ and DLH will make the top 40 or 50. Hopkins.... maybe not quite. His best wins were over a couple of blown-up welterweights, I believe boxing historians will look more critically at this. Mosley is another guy who may well make the top, say, 60.
Saddler first beat Pep when Willie was 26 years old . . .

..... and a veteran of more than 160 pro fights.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 13 Dec 2007, 16:16

What matters is Pep never fought Saddler until after the plane crash from which he was told he would not walk again, much less fight. He was severely impeded & struggled in fights he would have previously won with ease.

This is what takes away from Saddler beating Pep in their series, & rightly so.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 13 Dec 2007, 16:36

Saddler's victories were impressive & deserving in their manner, but the injuries visited upon Pep were serious business, & the shortcomings that resulted showed up in bouts before he first met Saddler.

While we may think we often hear of famous & obscure people alike beating the odds on being told by doctors they will never walk again, the reality is that is almost always the case, we just don't hear about the 99% of time doctors are right. Now consider that Pep went on boxing, of all sports. Then throw in how important Pep's legs were to his style.

Pep was quite badly depleted. Those wins should always carry an asterisk.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 13 Dec 2007, 16:53

pundit wrote: We'll talk again in 10, 20 years. I stick to my expectation that PBF will make the top 20, or get close to it. I also believe that RJJ and DLH will make the top 40 or 50. Hopkins.... maybe not quite. His best wins were over a couple of blown-up welterweights, I believe boxing historians will look more critically at this. Mosley is another guy who may well make the top, say, 60.

I think Hopkins' career is more impressive than De La Hoya's. I think of Oscar as a borderline great, and do expect him to be in the Hall of Fame, but he had a lot of losses and questionable wins. Hopkins has the defense record and beat Wright and Tarver in his 40's, and to me he got raw deals with the Mercado draw and the Taylor losses.

Mayweather would have to do something crazy for me to consider him top 20. He'll have to do more than beat Cotto or Williams to get that status. I'm sure dempseyfire will agree with me there.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 13 Dec 2007, 17:00

I Feel Fine wrote:
pundit wrote: We'll talk again in 10, 20 years. I stick to my expectation that PBF will make the top 20, or get close to it. I also believe that RJJ and DLH will make the top 40 or 50. Hopkins.... maybe not quite. His best wins were over a couple of blown-up welterweights, I believe boxing historians will look more critically at this. Mosley is another guy who may well make the top, say, 60.
I think Hopkins' career is more impressive than De La Hoya's. I think of Oscar as a borderline great, and do expect him to be in the Hall of Fame, but he had a lot of losses and questionable wins. Hopkins has the defense record and beat Wright and Tarver in his 40's, and to me he got raw deals with Mercado and Taylor.

I don't agree with you at all on this one. Oscar started a super-featherweight and stormed all division up to 147 like a force of nature. He then tried to make it all the way up to 160 in the twilight of his career, and this is when he ran into serious size limitations -- which I do not hold against him. In his entire career there is only one fight he lost clearly, against a much, much larger Bernard Hopkins.

Hopkins, by contrast, was an enduring but pretty unspectacular middleweight champ until he won the unification tourney over Holmes and Tito -- only to lose the crown as soon as he walked into a full-grown, borderline world class middleweight in Jermain Taylor. The Winky and Tarver fights mean little, these were largely celebrity bouts.

Mayweather would have to do something crazy for me to consider him top 20. He'll have to do more than beat Cotto or Williams to get that status. I'm sure dempseyfire will agree with me there.

I'm also sure dempseyfire will agree with you here.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 13 Dec 2007, 17:12

I agree De La Hoya should rank clear of Hopkins, but not by a huge measure.

To me, De La Hoya had his own share of wrong-end controversy. He plainly beat Trinidad & I think he was robbed in the return with Mosley as well. In how many fights did De La Hoya get a gift? Please, no one mention Quartey. It was razor-close & a legitimate decision either way. He has fought & defeated so many class fighters. I also don't hold the Hopkins loss against him, I mean c'mon, I shouldn't even have to explain that to anyone.

Hopkins, for his part, has been tremendous. There's no faulting his competition, except to say Trinidad & De La Hoya --- major scalps --- were far too small, & there is certainly no faulting his long reign as champion.

On greater accomplishment I place De La Hoya above Hopkins, & I think if they were the same size (i.e. pound-for-pound) De La Hoya would beat Hopkins (though with Hopkins' chin, stamina & ring generalship, a fight would always be close, but De La Hoya would edge it).

I guess what I'm saying is De La Hoya is a clear-cut great for me, not borderline. I sure wouldn't have him (or Mayweather Jr, for that matter) in my top twenty all-time, but when we all get to the end of our lives, let's ask ourselves how many fighters like De La Hoya there were, men who sought out the best, defeated many great opponents, & never ducked anyone. Ever.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 13 Dec 2007, 17:17

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Saddler's victories were impressive & deserving in their manner, but the injuries visited upon Pep were serious business, & the shortcomings that resulted showed up in bouts before he first met Saddler.

While we may think we often hear of famous & obscure people alike beating the odds on being told by doctors they will never walk again, the reality is that is almost always the case, we just don't hear about the 99% of time doctors are right. Now consider that Pep went on boxing, of all sports. Then throw in how important Pep's legs were to his style.

Pep was quite badly depleted. Those wins should always carry an asterisk.

I sure there was an effect, but to say he was "badly depleted" is not true . . .films of him show he was able to move pretty damn well for 15 rounds post-crash. He had no Cleveland Williams style career-nosedive. It was simply a miraculous recovery.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 13 Dec 2007, 17:32

I rank Hopkins' win over Wright over any of De La Hoya's wins. I thought Oscar got gifts against Whitaker (I can see the case for a draw, but Whitaker wasn't in his prime either), Sturm and yes, Quartey. I agree he should have beaten Trinidad (which was hardly a blow out either, as some make it out to be), but I thought the decision in the Mosley rematch was fair. By comparison I thought only Hopkins' first loss and his loss to Jones were legit, I thought he beat Taylor twice. They were close decision, not simply because Taylor was a full fledged Middleweight as you say, but because Hopkins was weight drained and more than ten years older than Taylor. Calling the Tarver and Wright fights celebrity fights is ridiculous. And I know Hopkins is bigger than Trinidad, but Hopkins showed more boxing skill against Tito than Oscar did. I don't agree that Oscar would beat a prime Hopkins if they were the same size, but that's obviously subjective and we'll never know.

I'm not saying I have Hopkins ten slots ahead of Oscar, but I would put him ahead. I do think Oscar is a borderline great, though I would say he is on "great" territory.

If Mayweather beats Cotto and Williams, he might arguably start to get real close to top 20. But I think its not unfair to say it will take a bit more than that to crack the top 20 mark. We are talking about a sport with a ridiculously deep history with generation upon generation full of amazing talent. I'm the first to say Mayweather's a great fighter, but come on, its not an easy ride to the top 20. We're talking Archie Moore territory.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 13 Dec 2007, 17:32

Films pre & post-crash & perhaps even more tellingly, results pre & post-crash tell a different story.

No way did Pep miraculously recover. He was not the same fighter. Beating Saddler once is enough to convince me he would have handled him earlier in his career, though it has to be said Saddler did as well as could be expected of him in winning.

No way was Pep anywhere near the same fighter though.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 13 Dec 2007, 18:24

I Feel Fine wrote:I rank Hopkins' win over Wright over any of De La Hoya's wins. I thought Oscar got gifts against Whitaker (I can see the case for a draw, but Whitaker wasn't in his prime either), Sturm and yes, Quartey. I agree he should have beaten Trinidad (which was hardly a blow out either, as some make it out to be), but I thought the decision in the Mosley rematch was fair. By comparison I thought only Hopkins' first loss and his loss to Jones were legit, I thought he beat Taylor twice. They were close decision, not simply because Taylor was a full fledged Middleweight as you say, but because Hopkins was weight drained and more than ten years older than Taylor. Calling the Tarver and Wright fights celebrity fights is ridiculous. And I know Hopkins is bigger than Trinidad, but Hopkins showed more boxing skill against Tito than Oscar did. I don't agree that Oscar would beat a prime Hopkins if they were the same size, but that's obviously subjective and we'll never know.

I'm not saying I have Hopkins ten slots ahead of Oscar, but I would put him ahead. I do think Oscar is a borderline great, though I would say he is on "great" territory.

Well we just disagree then. Happens -- this is no rocket science.

As regards Oscar, it appears to me you're largely ignoring or disregarding his career up to 147, which was plain amazing. Maybe you didn't live through this time. As for Winky vs. Hopkins, Winky was some 15 pounds above his natural weight in this fight and carried no power whatsoever. Once again BHops beat a much smaller man. I'm at loss how one could rate this win above Oscar's victories over, say, Chavez, Withaker, Ruelas, Hernandez, Vargas.

The most amazing thing about Bernard in my book is his sheer longevity. But career wise it's hard to find important victories were his opponent wasn't either much smaller (Oscar, Tito, Winky), or past it and unmotivated (Tarver), or simply not that good (Holmes, Joppy, Eastman, Allen, Daniels, etc.). In my book the best Hopkins fight was his dominant performance against Glencoffe Johnson, who went on to become a formidable light-heavyweight champion. Tito is second, as Tito had proven his competitiveness at 160 with the KO of Joppy.

If Mayweather beats Cotto and Williams, he might arguably start to get real close to top 20. But I think its not unfair to say it will take a bit more than that to crack the top 20 mark. We are talking about a sport with a ridiculously deep history with generation upon generation full of amazing talent. I'm the first to say Mayweather's a great fighter, but come on, its not an easy ride to the top 20. We're talking Archie Moore territory.

I don't think Cotto adds that much to Corrales, Castillo, De la Hoya, Hatton. It's 5 great wins then instead of 4. And Williams adds nothing. If Cotto and Williams get PBF close to top 20, he can't be that far off at this juncture.

Cheers,
P

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 13 Dec 2007, 18:57

pundit wrote:Well we just disagree then. Happens -- this is no rocket science.

That's fine. As I said, I don't have Hopkins miles ahead of Oscar, I can understand where you're coming from.

pundit wrote:As regards Oscar, it appears to me you're largely ignoring or disregarding his career up to 147, which was plain amazing. Maybe you didn't live through this time. As for Winky vs. Hopkins, Winky was some 15 pounds above his natural weight in this fight and carried no power whatsoever. Once again BHops beat a much smaller man. I'm at loss how one could rate this win above Oscar's victories over, say, Chavez, Withaker, Ruelas, Hernandez, Vargas.

It seems on the one hand you're saying that Hopkins' wins are diminished because he fought smaller men, and yet you're citing Oscar's wins over guys like Chavez, Ruelas and Hernandez. Oscar may have been fighting at the same weight as those guys, but he was clearly the bigger man. I'm sure you'd agree with me that even though Oscar started at 130, Oscar is clearly more natural to 147 and 154, certainly in comparison to Floyd. They started out in the same weight, but Oscar is clearly bigger. Anyway, I certainly take those wins into account, and I am in fact impressed by them, but its the same deal as Hopkins' wins against Winky, Oscar and Trinidad. I'd say it levels out. Vargas and Trinidad were his size, or bigger, but I don't see that those are bigger than Hopkins' biggest wins against Tito himself or Wright or Tarver. I don't rate Oscar's win over Whitaker because I don't hold it to be a win. Whitaker got a raw deal.

As for Winky being smaller, I think that's a bit exaggerated. Hopkins was the bigger man, yes. But great 154 pound champions have won belts at Light Heavyweight against natural Light Heavyweights, and Hopkins was not a natural Light Heavyweight and there was a catch weight at 170. Winky also had six fights at Middleweight where he seemed comfortable to that weight class, which was Hopkins' natural weight. In the end, Hopkins was the bigger man, but it was hardly the huge size advantage some made it out to be. Hopkins was also something like seven years older. Perhaps Chavez might be cited as someone who Oscar beat who might surpass Hopkins' win over Winky, but I tend to think Chavez had less left in the tank. I might be wrong there, though.

pundit wrote:The most amazing thing about Bernard in my book is his sheer longevity. But career wise it's hard to find important victories were his opponent wasn't either much smaller (Oscar, Tito, Winky), or past it and unmotivated (Tarver), or simply not that good (Holmes, Joppy, Eastman, Allen, Daniels, etc.). In my book the best Hopkins fight was his dominant performance against Glencoffe Johnson, who went on to become a formidable light-heavyweight champion. Tito is second, as Tito had proven his competitiveness at 160 with the KO of Joppy.

I agree, I think Hopkins is a great fighter because of longevity an accumulation of wins. But I don't think its fair to talk about how he was fighting smaller guys, many Middleweight champions have done that. Tarver being unmotivated is neither here nor there, I don't see how Tarver ever beats Hopkins.

pundit wrote:I don't think Cotto adds that much to Corrales, Castillo, De la Hoya, Hatton. It's 5 great wins then instead of 4. And Williams adds nothing. If Cotto and Williams get PBF close to top 20, he can't be that far off at this juncture.

I disagree entirely. Cotto would be Floyd's second best win to date, next to Oscar. I fail to see how adding Cotto to that list is only a small thing. Williams would be interesting to see just because Williams is so much bigger than Mayweather, sort of like Duran beating Barkley or something to that effect. More importantly they are also coming off big wins, Cotto specifically against Mosley who is an all time great of Oscar's stature, and if Mayweather hypothetically beat them he'd be unified champion. I'd say if Mayweather wants to get to top 20, he should start there.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 14 Dec 2007, 02:26

Goodnight, Irene wrote:I agree De La Hoya should rank clear of Hopkins, but not by a huge measure.

To me, De La Hoya had his own share of wrong-end controversy. He plainly beat Trinidad & I think he was robbed in the return with Mosley as well. In how many fights did De La Hoya get a gift? Please, no one mention Quartey. It was razor-close & a legitimate decision either way. He has fought & defeated so many class fighters. I also don't hold the Hopkins loss against him, I mean c'mon, I shouldn't even have to explain that to anyone.

Hopkins, for his part, has been tremendous. There's no faulting his competition, except to say Trinidad & De La Hoya --- major scalps --- were far too small, & there is certainly no faulting his long reign as champion.

On greater accomplishment I place De La Hoya above Hopkins, & I think if they were the same size (i.e. pound-for-pound) De La Hoya would beat Hopkins (though with Hopkins' chin, stamina & ring generalship, a fight would always be close, but De La Hoya would edge it).

I guess what I'm saying is De La Hoya is a clear-cut great for me, not borderline. I sure wouldn't have him (or Mayweather Jr, for that matter) in my top twenty all-time, but when we all get to the end of our lives, let's ask ourselves how many fighters like De La Hoya there were, men who sought out the best, defeated many great opponents, & never ducked anyone. Ever.

Delahoya CANNOT CARRY HIS OWN JOCKSTRAP...What a waste in boxing

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 14 Dec 2007, 13:58

Since De Lahoya doesn't look mean and can actually talk fairly intelligently guarantees that some people won't like them and can't be objective about him.

Anyway as far as Mayweather is concerned, I just wanted to make a few points.

His competition hasn't been great, but it has been decent. He has certainly tried to fight the best out there. There just hasn't been anyone. It's not his fault that Hatton is more hype and than substance.
All you can do is fight the best that are available. He deserves credit for that.

It's not like he has been struggling to win in most of his fights either. He usually wins pretty easily.

However, I do want to bring up one fight of his that for some reason rarely seems to get mentioned. In the first Jose Luis Castillo fight, Mayweather looked lethargic. For whatever reason, he was off that night. He did not deserve the decsion. He was clearly beaten, even though the judges all had him winning easily. This should count against him.

He certainly has the talent to beat a truly great fighter.
What we really don't know is if he was fighting another great fighter would have the heart and the brains to pull out a tough fight.

Beating De La Hoya doesn't cut it. De La hoya was 34, and had one fight in his last 3 years.
If this doesn't happen before he gets too old, we will never know. So for the time being, he shouldn't be ranked anywhere near the Top 20. More than 20 fighters would be undefeated fighting the caliber of opponents that Mayweather has. The Top 20 are guys that have beaten many very good fighters and other great fighters.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 14 Dec 2007, 14:19

"Delahoya CANNOT CARRY HIS OWN JOCKSTRAP...What a waste in boxing " - Elmer

Oh please, Elmer. Why not just say, "I hate De La Hoya" & be done with it? It is as plain as day you cannot approach him with any objectivity, at least produce the courage to admit as much, because you aren't fooling anyone.

kidbazooka1 · Post by **kidbazooka1** » 14 Dec 2007, 17:14

Mayweather IMO and many others lost the 1st fight with castillo. He beat Corrales who was a one diminsional fighter, Beat Castillo the 2nd time(best win) and beat up a way past his prime gatti, squeaked by DLH(i thought he lost) and beat a club fighter type slugger in hatton.

His two best wins IMO being Castillo and DLH who he realy lost to once and a razor tight win over DLH who some alos felt beat Floyd.

No way does he belong in the top 20 top 50 maybe but not 20.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 15 Dec 2007, 00:14

kidbazooka1 wrote:squeaked by DLH(i thought he lost) and beat a club fighter type slugger in hatton.

His two best wins IMO being Castillo and DLH who he realy lost to once and a razor tight win over DLH who some alos felt beat Floyd.

Only dopey casual fans thought Oscar beat Mayweather. It was the most watched PPV in boxing history, which means that a lot of people who have no idea of how to score a fight where going to give their input, and most of them were going to be De La Hoay fans to begin with. Mayweather won the fight quite clearly. Mayweather's win over Castillo in the rematch should have been enough to dispel the questions of the first fight, and calling Hatton a club fighter is nonsense.

kidbazooka1 · Post by **kidbazooka1** » 15 Dec 2007, 16:52

I Feel Fine wrote:
kidbazooka1 wrote:squeaked by DLH(i thought he lost) and beat a club fighter type slugger in hatton.

His two best wins IMO being Castillo and DLH who he realy lost to once and a razor tight win over DLH who some alos felt beat Floyd.
Only dopey casual fans thought Oscar beat Mayweather. It was the most watched PPV in boxing history, which means that a lot of people who have no idea of how to score a fight where going to give their input, and most of them were going to be De La Hoay fans to begin with. Mayweather won the fight quite clearly. Mayweather's win over Castillo in the rematch should have been enough to dispel the questions of the first fight, and calling Hatton a club fighter is nonsense.

Im no dopey fan but I thought Mayweather barley beat DLH just liek the cards suggested.

Yes he beat Castillo convincingly in the rematch but Castillo did beat him the 1st go aorund.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 16 Dec 2007, 20:05

Goodnight, Irene wrote:"Delahoya CANNOT CARRY HIS OWN JOCKSTRAP...What a waste in boxing " - Elmer

Oh please, Elmer. Why not just say, "I hate De La Hoya" & be done with it? It is as plain as day you cannot approach him with any objectivity, at least produce the courage to admit as much, because you aren't fooling anyone.

You are right...I do not like him...He is not an all-time great like some people put him out to be. He is not a lightweight great, he is not a jr welter great, he is not a welter great...He probably is a super welterweight great, but not in the top 154 pounders of all-time and forget about the rankings of the middleweight greats...He is no where in sight.

When he had to give his best in the biggest fight of his life with Tito, he FLUNKED....I MEAN, BOTH OF THEM FLUNKED.

You mentioned that Ken Buchanan would not beat him or something like that.? Buchanan would beat him with his eyes closed and with ONLY one hand, how about that.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 16 Dec 2007, 20:32

elmersalsa wrote:
Goodnight, Irene wrote:"Delahoya CANNOT CARRY HIS OWN JOCKSTRAP...What a waste in boxing " - Elmer

Oh please, Elmer. Why not just say, "I hate De La Hoya" & be done with it? It is as plain as day you cannot approach him with any objectivity, at least produce the courage to admit as much, because you aren't fooling anyone.
You are right...I do not like him...He is not an all-time great like some people put him out to be. He is not a lightweight great, he is not a jr welter great, he is not a welter great...He probably is a super welterweight great, but not in the top 154 pounders of all-time and forget about the rankings of the middleweight greats...He is no where in sight.

When he had to give his best in the biggest fight of his life with Tito, he FLUNKED....I MEAN, BOTH OF THEM FLUNKED.

You mentioned that Ken Buchanan would not beat him or something like that.? Buchanan would beat him with his eyes closed and with ONLY one hand, how about that.

Candidate for dumbest post of the year?

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 16 Dec 2007, 23:36

Collins2000 wrote:
elmersalsa wrote:
Goodnight, Irene wrote:"Delahoya CANNOT CARRY HIS OWN JOCKSTRAP...What a waste in boxing " - Elmer

Oh please, Elmer. Why not just say, "I hate De La Hoya" & be done with it? It is as plain as day you cannot approach him with any objectivity, at least produce the courage to admit as much, because you aren't fooling anyone.
You are right...I do not like him...He is not an all-time great like some people put him out to be. He is not a lightweight great, he is not a jr welter great, he is not a welter great...He probably is a super welterweight great, but not in the top 154 pounders of all-time and forget about the rankings of the middleweight greats...He is no where in sight.

When he had to give his best in the biggest fight of his life with Tito, he FLUNKED....I MEAN, BOTH OF THEM FLUNKED.

You mentioned that Ken Buchanan would not beat him or something like that.? Buchanan would beat him with his eyes closed and with ONLY one hand, how about that.

Candidate for dumbest post of the year?

Not as dumb as your posts, I guess...

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 17 Dec 2007, 00:42

elmersalsa wrote:
Collins2000 wrote:
elmersalsa wrote: You are right...I do not like him...He is not an all-time great like some people put him out to be. He is not a lightweight great, he is not a jr welter great, he is not a welter great...He probably is a super welterweight great, but not in the top 154 pounders of all-time and forget about the rankings of the middleweight greats...He is no where in sight.

When he had to give his best in the biggest fight of his life with Tito, he FLUNKED....I MEAN, BOTH OF THEM FLUNKED.

You mentioned that Ken Buchanan would not beat him or something like that.? Buchanan would beat him with his eyes closed and with ONLY one hand, how about that.

Candidate for dumbest post of the year?
Not as dumb as your posts, I guess...

What an absolutely stunning put down, Elma.

Last time I was put in my place like that was by Porky Graham at Randwick Primary School.