Larry Holmes 1980 vs. Sonny Liston 1959

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 16 Dec 2006, 21:21

RazorKO wrote:
J-C wrote:I'm so sick of this weak arguement about Ruddock being upset bet the crowd

Here's the fight

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7NHwKXG9vU

Watch the preliminaries Ruddock does not look bothered at all, quite the opposite in fact, at worst he looked over-psyched.

RazorKO if that's the worst fan reaction you've ever seen you've not seen much sport. If you think it's anything anything other than the punches hurting Ruddock you should get your eyes tested.
Ruddock doenst look bothered during the intervals but after the fight he did admit to say he couldnt fight in this climtate, and I am ammusing he is refering to the despicable booing he recieved which could put off any fighter.

This fight was indeed one of the worst receptions Ive ever seen in boxing and I have seen many many fights, many I have on video. The fans in England dont just boo the fighter, they boo the national anthem - the only country Ive noticed to do this in boxing. The McClelan-Ben fight however may of been worse, espeically when fans were reported of shouting 'DIE YOU YANK DIE' to an unconcious McClelan being taken away on a stretcher.

Yawn. It was also reported that 'fans' were pissing in paper cups and throwing them down onto the prostrate body of Johnny Owen as he was removed from the ring. But then again, they weren't Brits, so I guess it doesn't matter.

RazorKO · Post by **RazorKO** » 17 Dec 2006, 12:57

Yes thats a disgrace but it has nothing to do with saying Ruddock could beat Lewis.

I was just comparing the hostile crowd situation to the Ruddock-Lewis fight, thats all.

Part of being a great fighter is overcoming adversity. The recent Molitor vs Hunter fight is an example of how a great fighter's quality will shine through in a hostile atmosophere

True, but as much as I like Ruddock I admitt he certainly isnt a top 20 HW and not the most skilled fighter there was and Ive seen him in other fights such as the Odum fight where the crowd has gotten to him as when he hit Odum after the bell he was booed, which is why he repeatedly apologized in the post fight interviews to try and endear himself to them. Hagler was able to deal mentally with the crowd and forget about his surroundings, Ruddock I dont think was able to.

We all have our favorites but you seem to have trouble putting yours in their historical context. Tyson lost to Douglas because he fired Rooney, Razor lost to Lewis because of the crowd, Coetzee was not considered an great because of apartide...at the end of the day our heros have weaknesses too and we just have to accept that rather than look for excuses.

Good point. Its hard to agure against that, but I still stand by my beliefs :)

RazorKO · Post by **RazorKO** » 18 Dec 2006, 16:39

Decagon wrote:
RazorKO wrote:
Yes thats a disgrace but it has nothing to do with saying Ruddock could beat Lewis.
I was just comparing the hostile crowd situation to the Ruddock-Lewis fight, thats all.

Hagler was able to deal mentally with the crowd and forget about his surroundings, Ruddock I dont think was able to.
He also wasn't able to take a big punch, throw any punch other than the left hook, or breathe.

Once you've been 12 rounds with Tyson then we'll talk. Apart from that keep your bullshit to yourself.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 18 Dec 2006, 21:17

Is anyone else amazed how a thread that starts out with a Holmes-Liston match up....winds up at the end with nothing to do with Holmes and Liston?

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 17 Dec 2007, 19:55

I guess you also called someone out for saying Liston & Holmes had two of the best jabs in Heavyweight history, & there were those little rolling eyes again.

Unless that was the other Ringsider?

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 17 Dec 2007, 19:58

ringsider wrote:Holmes could jab, but that was about it, he threw it too hard most of the time. Liston's jab was was clubber. Just because a fighter has a hard jab, doesn't make it a great jab. You jab too hard, you mess up your balance, and ability to follow with the right and a decent hook. Jabbing is about setting up your other punches. You can't be trying to knock a guy's block off with every jab.

Ali had a better jab
Joe Louis
Lennox Lewis.
Riddick Bowe even!
Tyson(before he forgot what a jab was)
Ezzard Charles
Even George Foreman jabbed decent when he turned it down a bit. He used it to set everything up, ala Micheal Moore....

Ringsider?

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 18 Dec 2007, 00:38

Good fight, but I think Holmes wins a decision on this one.

I think he has the size, speed, and with his multi-variable jab
which has the versatility that Listons does not I think he wins
by a comfortable margin.

Liston is strong, determined and always aggressive gives Holmes
trouble at points, but his jab though powerful and hurtful doesn't find
the range at times.

Good fight though....

Kym

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 18 Dec 2007, 02:33

In the year 1980

Larry Holmes looked bad against nobody Lorenzo Zanon for several rounds and then won when Zanon did his usual collapse

Then Holmes fought fat 254 pound Leroy Jones. After the fight on national TV Jones said Holmes thumbed him over and over.

Then Holmes beat Scott LeDoux, with the winning “blow” being a thumb to the eye.

Then Holmes let a shot Ali last 10 rounds. Any championship level fighter would have stopped Ali in a round or two.

Yeah, Sonny Liston wouldn’t have had a chance against him.

LOL

If the fearsome Larry Holmes of 1980 met Liston at his best,

I think Liston would either quit in his corner with a sore shoulder

or get knocked out in the first round by a single punch.

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 18 Dec 2007, 04:44

Granberry

I really enjoy your perspectives on things. I think that in 1980, Holmes was a very capable fighter and even in his 'lackings' that he displayed in 1980 as you mentioned he would have the style and tools to beat Liston.

I also feel that your favourite fighter Muhammad Ali would also have beaten Liston, had the pair met when Liston was closer to his 'peak'. I just think that the Ali and I suppose Holmes style was made to beat the Bear. And if this upsets you then so be it. I say this with respect to Liston, who I think is an all time great and a guy that will always be in history's upper echelon of HW greatness.

In 1959 Liston beat a tough journeyman in DeJohn. TKO'd the then very handy Williams, who was made for Liston. Bettered the at the end of his career Valdes and beat German fighter and world stage journeyman Besemoff.

The thumbing is unfortunate and followed Holmes around much the same way that head butts pestered Holyfield's career. I wonder what controversies surronded the squeeky clean Sonny Liston ?

Kym

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 18 Dec 2007, 07:43

Robinson wrote:Granberry

I really enjoy your perspectives on things. I think that in 1980, Holmes was a very capable fighter and even in his 'lackings' that he displayed in 1980 as you mentioned he would have the style and tools to beat Liston.

I also feel that your favourite fighter Muhammad Ali would also have beaten Liston, had the pair met when Liston was closer to his 'peak'. I just think that the Ali and I suppose Holmes style was made to beat the Bear. And if this upsets you then so be it. I say this with respect to Liston, who I think is an all time great and a guy that will always be in history's upper echelon of HW greatness.

In 1959 Liston beat a tough journeyman in DeJohn. TKO'd the then very handy Williams, who was made for Liston. Bettered the at the end of his career Valdes and beat German fighter and world stage journeyman Besemoff.

The thumbing is unfortunate and followed Holmes around much the same way that head butts pestered Holyfield's career. I wonder what controversies surronded the squeeky clean Sonny Liston ?

Kym

Kym,

Your well made`points will have no impact on the closed mind of Crankberry.

You have to remember that he has the advantage in that he is willing to bad mouth and lie about great fighter that he doesn't like. Ali, Holmes, Leonard to name but a few. He occasionally gets the odd poster to agree with him but on analysis you will find they also bear a crazy grudge.

I can't do that sort of thing as there are no former greats that I can think of who deserve it.

Crankberry does know a bit about boxing, nowhere near what he thinks he knows but a little bit. Jaclem made a good post about him saying something along the lines of it was like talking to someone who had a good story but who also suffers from terrible halitosis.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 18 Dec 2007, 12:41

Robinson wrote:Granberry

I really enjoy your perspectives on things. I think that in 1980, Holmes was a very capable fighter and even in his 'lackings' that he displayed in 1980 as you mentioned he would have the style and tools to beat Liston.

I also feel that your favourite fighter Muhammad Ali would also have beaten Liston, had the pair met when Liston was closer to his 'peak'. I just think that the Ali and I suppose Holmes style was made to beat the Bear. And if this upsets you then so be it. I say this with respect to Liston, who I think is an all time great and a guy that will always be in history's upper echelon of HW greatness.

In 1959 Liston beat a tough journeyman in DeJohn. TKO'd the then very handy Williams, who was made for Liston. Bettered the at the end of his career Valdes and beat German fighter and world stage journeyman Besemoff.

The thumbing is unfortunate and followed Holmes around much the same way that head butts pestered Holyfield's career. I wonder what controversies surronded the squeeky clean Sonny Liston ?

Kym

Robinson,

In the above post you make very wrong assumption.

I DON'T CARE what you think.

Save your deep thoughts for someone who does.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 18 Dec 2007, 12:43

Collins2000 wrote:
Robinson wrote:Granberry

I really enjoy your perspectives on things. I think that in 1980, Holmes was a very capable fighter and even in his 'lackings' that he displayed in 1980 as you mentioned he would have the style and tools to beat Liston.

I also feel that your favourite fighter Muhammad Ali would also have beaten Liston, had the pair met when Liston was closer to his 'peak'. I just think that the Ali and I suppose Holmes style was made to beat the Bear. And if this upsets you then so be it. I say this with respect to Liston, who I think is an all time great and a guy that will always be in history's upper echelon of HW greatness.

In 1959 Liston beat a tough journeyman in DeJohn. TKO'd the then very handy Williams, who was made for Liston. Bettered the at the end of his career Valdes and beat German fighter and world stage journeyman Besemoff.

The thumbing is unfortunate and followed Holmes around much the same way that head butts pestered Holyfield's career. I wonder what controversies surronded the squeeky clean Sonny Liston ?

Kym
Kym,

Your well made`points will have no impact on the closed mind of Crankberry.

You have to remember that he has the advantage in that he is willing to bad mouth and lie about great fighter that he doesn't like. Ali, Holmes, Leonard to name but a few. He occasionally gets the odd poster to agree with him but on analysis you will find they also bear a crazy grudge.

I can't do that sort of thing as there are no former greats that I can think of who deserve it.

Crankberry does know a bit about boxing, nowhere near what he thinks he knows but a little bit. Jaclem made a good post about him saying something along the lines of it was like talking to someone who had a good story but who also suffers from terrible halitosis.

Buzz' butt-boy Collins displays several characteristics of his mental illness ----

FIXATION on someone else to the point where he devotes his entire energies to his delusional "battle" with the object of his fixation.

In his mentally ill world Collins demands a one-way communication even to the point where he even "speaks" FOR the object of his fixation.

In the diseased ‘mind’ of Collins, his FIXATION on another poster is somehow relates to the subject of "boxing."

Meanwhile he drags boxrec to a lower and lower level with his feminine fixation and his fixation-driven posts.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 18 Dec 2007, 14:29

granberry wrote:
Collins2000 wrote:
Robinson wrote:Granberry

I really enjoy your perspectives on things. I think that in 1980, Holmes was a very capable fighter and even in his 'lackings' that he displayed in 1980 as you mentioned he would have the style and tools to beat Liston.

I also feel that your favourite fighter Muhammad Ali would also have beaten Liston, had the pair met when Liston was closer to his 'peak'. I just think that the Ali and I suppose Holmes style was made to beat the Bear. And if this upsets you then so be it. I say this with respect to Liston, who I think is an all time great and a guy that will always be in history's upper echelon of HW greatness.

In 1959 Liston beat a tough journeyman in DeJohn. TKO'd the then very handy Williams, who was made for Liston. Bettered the at the end of his career Valdes and beat German fighter and world stage journeyman Besemoff.

The thumbing is unfortunate and followed Holmes around much the same way that head butts pestered Holyfield's career. I wonder what controversies surronded the squeeky clean Sonny Liston ?

Kym
Kym,

Your well made`points will have no impact on the closed mind of Crankberry.

You have to remember that he has the advantage in that he is willing to bad mouth and lie about great fighter that he doesn't like. Ali, Holmes, Leonard to name but a few. He occasionally gets the odd poster to agree with him but on analysis you will find they also bear a crazy grudge.

I can't do that sort of thing as there are no former greats that I can think of who deserve it.

Crankberry does know a bit about boxing, nowhere near what he thinks he knows but a little bit. Jaclem made a good post about him saying something along the lines of it was like talking to someone who had a good story but who also suffers from terrible halitosis.

Buzz' butt-boy Collins displays several characteristics of his mental illness ----

FIXATION on someone else to the point where he devotes his entire energies to his delusional "battle" with the object of his fixation.

In his mentally ill world Collins demands a one-way communication even to the point where he even "speaks" FOR the object of his fixation.

In the diseased ‘mind’ of Collins, his FIXATION on another poster is somehow relates to the subject of "boxing."

Meanwhile he drags boxrec to a lower and lower level with his feminine fixation and his fixation-driven posts.

Oh, Crankberry you are so cutting.

Come on raise the level of boxrec once more with another of your childish claims about the ali industry and/or The Traitor Eddie Futch.

Your act is top drawer, mate. Your portrayal of a man completely out of touch with reality is worthy of an oscar. Have you ever thought of taking your comedic talents to the Edingurgh Fringe?

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 18 Dec 2007, 15:16

OK it's "ask a celebrity a question" time!!!

Hey everybody! We have granberry here! A man who deserves NO INTRODUCTION!!! Hey granberry would you take a question from our audience?

OK! Let's just pick that guy over there in the plaid shirt...what question do you have for the famous boxing historian, Mr granberry?

Uh Yeah...My name is Joe from Palookasville Arkansas....and My question is....Mr granberry sir....please expound on your thoughts regarding the Ali Terrell fight. Who do you think won that the fight?.....and why?

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 18 Dec 2007, 19:54

Granberry

If you do not care then why post ? why not just lurk like many other people do.

I take it we are not spending X-mas together then ? :(

Kym

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 19 Dec 2007, 17:49

BoxBuzz wrote:OK it's "ask a celebrity a question" time!!!

Hey everybody! We have granberry here! A man who deserves NO INTRODUCTION!!! Hey granberry would you take a question from our audience?

OK! Let's just pick that guy over there in the plaid shirt...what question do you have for the famous boxing historian, Mr granberry?

Uh Yeah...My name is Joe from Palookasville Arkansas....and My question is....Mr granberry sir....please expound on your thoughts regarding the Ali Terrell fight. Who do you think won that the fight?.....and why?

3rd round.

What happened?

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 19 Dec 2007, 18:59

Ok...so because Terrel won round 3, he won the fight ?

Is that right ?

Wow, cool stuff.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 19 Dec 2007, 19:50

Buzz

I am waiting.

Tell us all about what happened in the third round.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 19 Dec 2007, 21:41

granberry wrote:Buzz

I am waiting.

Tell us all about what happened in the third round.

Well granberry, it's a sort of a blur in my mind, and as you know that round can not be found on any tape available....sure you can see rounds 1 and 2...and then from 7 forward, but the Ali conspirators have taken the master videos and hidden the third (and a few others )in the Spanish Pyrenees mountains protected by Monks who have taken a vow of secrecy.

Most of us remember this as rather one sided Ali win...in fact most would say extremely one sided...but as you and I know that third round information has been sequestered and those at the fight and in the closed circuit theatres have been sworn to silence. (Except for everyone on the east coast who knew the fix was in from the gitgo).

So I could tell you what happened but then I'd have to kill you. Which honestly is the biggest reason I'm thinking about telling you everything about that round.

Now...a lot of people will tell you the reason that "highlights" videos of that fight do not contain the 3rd round is because it was not particularly noteworthy, but in fact it contains all you need to know that Ali was a bum. A bum from the olympics right down to his last fight with Trevor Berbick (what you and I know to be Ali's prime). It proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt and that's why "THEY" have done away with it.

If people ever were to witness the horrible things that took place in round three....well the history books on boxing would have to be re-written right then and there. His double actually had to "sit in" for a few rounds until they revived Ali near the 7th and they quietly and without notice snuck him back into the ring where he somehow miraculously finishes the fight.

Smoke and mirrors, trick cameras and that funny flashy thing that the "Men in Black" use were all part and parcel to that Houston Evening.

granberry and I know the truth....and the truth is out there.

Oh and here is what the judges had to say about that night at the Astrodome...

referee: Harry Kessler 137-148 | judge: Jimmy Webb 133-148 | judge: Ernie Taylor 137-148

Notice how many times the digit "3" shows up in the scoring? Coincidence? I think not.
Those judges were doing there best to get the truth out to whoever could decode the scoring. Luckily you and I are on the case.

Oh and the fact that "Ernie Terrell and Ernie Taylor both have "ET" as initials is a dead give away. ~

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 19 Dec 2007, 23:25

I think that you can view the entire fight on YouTube.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 20 Dec 2007, 00:33

Still waiting, buzz.

Tell us all about what happened in the third round.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 20 Dec 2007, 10:32

granberry wrote:Still waiting, buzz.

Tell us all about what happened in the third round.

granberry, I will answer you on the Ali is overated thread.....if you want to know the answer you will have to wander over there....

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 20 Dec 2007, 15:53

Poor buzz can consult his Thomas Hauser and Bert Sugar books

to the end of time

and he still won't be able to tell us what happened in the 3rd round.

Poor buzz.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 20 Dec 2007, 16:07

granberry wrote:Poor buzz can consult his Thomas Hauser and Bert Sugar books

to the end of time

and he still won't be able to tell us what happened in the 3rd round.

Poor buzz.

Crankberry, whatever Buzzy comes up with I am sure your version will be more entertaining.

Of course, like your description of the Dempsey - Flynn fight it will bear no resemblence to reality but that's what seperates you from most of the posters in here and makes your posts worth reading.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 20 Dec 2007, 16:11

Buzz' butt-boy Collins shows up on cue,

eager to demonstrate his compulsive FIXATION on one poster.