Billy Graham - Preacher or Chancer?

johnswan1 · Post by **johnswan1** » 20 Dec 2007, 08:17

Now that most people are beginning to calm down a bit from all of the excitement on these boards over the past week or two - what way do people now see Billy Graham. I read a column by a US writer before the fight which mentioned how the 24/7 series "immortalised" Graham. I don’t know about that….

So now, given some time to calm down and take it all in, what do people think of Billy Graham, his training methods, tactics, ability to take control, and ability to adapt under pressure?

Rumours of a split aside, I think the general comments criticising Graham lately have been:

"The bodybag idea isn't as beneficial as Graham believes it to be".

"Graham was crapping himself before the fight".

"The dressing room before the fight was a joke".

"Graham couldn't get Ricky to adapt, calm down, or change what he was doing during the fight".

"Ricky wasn't even listening to anything Graham was telling him".

"The tactics were wrong".

There are probably a lot more too. I haven't made my mind up yet but I think we were all surprised at how well Floyd dealt with Hatton on the inside. What other way was there for Hatton to beat or at least have a chance of beating Mayweather? He couldn’t have matched Floyd with speed or boxing skills so what other tactics could Graham have instilled in him? I can understand how the referee was a big distraction but I didn't see any of the trademark body punching on the inside that Ricky had been known for. As heard in the corner, Graham did tell Ricky that he was smothering his own work but nothing changed from there in what Hatton did as far as I could see.

IMO, I think the biggest questions would have to be 1) were the sparring partners sufficient? 2) where was the body punching? 3) were there problems in the camp that Graham didn’t or was unable to sort out? 4) why has Hatton seemed to adopt the same tactics as the Tszyu fight in every fight since? 5) were the tactics based on a belief that Floyd had little strength and power and that he was going to try to dance and box his way to a points victory?

It’s difficult to tell whether Graham can be held to blame for Rickys failings. It was after all, the best P4P fighter in the world he was up against. Would Ricky be better off ditching Graham or is that something an observer without inside camp knowledge could not really comment too much on?

DavidPayne · Post by **DavidPayne** » 20 Dec 2007, 08:29

Ricky lost his head. Cortez influenced.
The connection between the two wasn't there in the corner.
Ricky hasn't thrown combinations for two years.
Ricky is a ten stone fighter.

They all seem like plain facts above.

Now the subjective, naive, novice, uninformed opinion stuff.

Pushing weights to build strength and power in a combination, volume puncher is the wrong path.
Timing, footwork, head-movement, stamina and speed are Ricky's strengths. Not as everyone now believes, his strength.

I don't care if he can lift the Phoenix Gym and Kerry Kayes' fridge - Can he throw combinations, move his head out the way of a jab, use range and land more than one shot before tying up?

Thats what matters.

Ricky has been reckless, one dimensional and ineffective for much of his post Tszyu career. You cant escape it.

But, Mayweather makes lots of fighters look pretty ordinary. That's the get out of jail card, to add to the Joe Cortez one. WHich I believe effected Ricky's chances by 50%.

And spoilt the fight as a spectacle.

Poncey · Post by **Poncey** » 20 Dec 2007, 08:38

johnswan1 wrote:
IMO, I think the biggest questions would have to be 1) were the sparring partners sufficient? 2) where was the body punching? 3) were there problems in the camp that Graham didn’t or was unable to sort out? 4) why has Hatton seemed to adopt the same tactics as the Tszyu fight in every fight since? 5) were the tactics based on a belief that Floyd had little strength and power and that he was going to try to dance and box his way to a points victory?

The response above is pretty concise, so I've tried to pose my thoughts about the questions you raise:

1) I raised my eyebrows a little at the quality of the sparring partners, and though they could've been better.

2) I don't think Billy canbe blamed for this, after all he can't force his fighter to punch to the body. Perhaps someone in/near the camp could say this was a false tactic for the cameras.

3) The after dinner speaking and constant media attention Ricky gets now is outside Billy's hands and falls squarely with Hatton's management

4) Bit harsh, but possibly fair. He has regressed and hasn't really boxed at range well since Tackie. But he has had elbow problems.

5) Possibly, but I thought that myself, as did most of the boxing world. I think Ricky made Floyd's power look more than it actually is. Steve Bunce said that he was showed some of the moves they were going to employ against Floyd, and he saw none of them in the fight. From what I picked up, they sounded clever and not what Floyd would've expected.

Blame lies with Ricky IMO

johnswan1 · Post by **johnswan1** » 20 Dec 2007, 08:40

Against Mayweather speed and timing were never going to be a strength for Hatton. I don't know about Stamina either - he didn't show it against Urango or Collazo, and it's questionable whether he would have showed it against Castillo either, given the pace he was working at. He may be able to hit Billy Graham wearing a Sumo party costume for 12-15 rounds, but I don't think proves too much when there's nothing coming back at him.

I agree with you about being reckless though - I think he has been reckless in every fight since, and including, the Tszyu fight, although he managed to get away with it up until now.

johnswan1 · Post by **johnswan1** » 20 Dec 2007, 08:45

BTW - did anybody get to see the HBO version and did they show the corner at the end of each round? The ads on Sky ruined it. I'd love to see exactly what went on in the corner right through the fight.

chesh · Post by **chesh** » 20 Dec 2007, 09:08

Good post, John. You raise excellent and relevant questions. Without addressing each and every one of your points specifically, my take on how things transpired is as follows:

Floyd was physically much stronger than they had anticiptated;

they overestimated Ricky's and underestimated Floyd's conditioning;

too much emphasis was placed on strength - rather than cardio - conditioning;

whilst Floyd was sparring the likes of N'Dou, Baldomir and - supposedly - light-heavyweights, Ricky was sparring lightweights and amateurs;

Ricky had no defense against Floyd's lead right hand, even though it is a well-known and frequently used weapon in Floyd's arsenal;

Ricky's subtle lateral movement of old was nowhere to be seen and he appeared the one-dimensional slugger the Mayweathers had proclaimed him to be;

his long preparation may have caused him to peak soon and leave his best work in the gym;

his over-anxiety in the ring lead him to expend a lot of energy on ineffective pressure which resulted in his being a spent force after 5 rounds;

Floyd - as they should have expected from the P4P #1 - could fight as well as box.

Whether the blame for failing to implement an intelligent gameplan lies with the fighter or trainer is unclear, but Ricky certainly came nowhere near to executing a successful strategy for defeating Mayweather who - aside from the brief stumble in the first round - did not appear troubled at all at any stage of the fight.

Poncey · Post by **Poncey** » 20 Dec 2007, 09:35

johnswan1 wrote:BTW - did anybody get to see the HBO version and did they show the corner at the end of each round? The ads on Sky ruined it. I'd love to see exactly what went on in the corner right through the fight.

BBC had some of the corner action, and I really wasn't impressed with Graham. I gotta be honest. Both himself and Mick Williamson were visibly shaking.

I was expecting Graham to be geeing Ricky up in a controlled manner.

I've got the HBO version coming, and watched it on delayed HBO when I got back from Vegas, it's worth getting just to see the HBO scorecards which were laughably inaccurate.

Kellerman really needs to focus on another sport.

Sammy Mendelson · Post by **Sammy Mendelson** » 20 Dec 2007, 10:17

I'm with stupid^^^^

Great post, Terry.

DavidPayne · Post by **DavidPayne** » 20 Dec 2007, 10:23

Hypnotic though the rumours are to those with idle time and an interest in boxing.

Terry in his article and here draws a line under the whole lot.

I don't think a review of things would do Ricky any harm, but ditching his coach would be crazy.

johnswan1 · Post by **johnswan1** » 20 Dec 2007, 10:29

Nice one Terry, Billy owes you a foot massage. Good post.

Well I don't think anybody really will say "chancer", it's just a heading, I could have said "overrated?" or "to blame?", but didn't care much for the title - but are clearly some people calling for his head. Basically I just wanted to ask 1) what is his responsibility for the manner of the Hatton defeat and 2) did he lose control, lose the plot, and 3) did we learn anything about Graham we didn't know beforehand.

I don't want this to turn into a "how to beat Mayweather" thread, but more of a "how do we judge Billy Graham on Hattons performance" thread.

DavidPayne · Post by **DavidPayne** » 20 Dec 2007, 10:30

I think a long range, fast, stiff jab from a southpaw stance is the tool of choice.

punchers chance · Post by **punchers chance** » 20 Dec 2007, 10:56

Emerson Poncey Name Ghent wrote: Both himself and Mick Williamson were visibly shaking.

Williamson has done this for years. It doesn't affect his work. It was commented on in this thread by Stu Jones on the Hatton v Maussa fight

Bard of Boxrec · Post by **Bard of Boxrec** » 20 Dec 2007, 11:02

did anyone read that article that said grahams view was obscured the whole night by a fat official?

Wales · Post by **Wales** » 20 Dec 2007, 11:15

Terry touches on it during his ramble, is there an online link to it ?

Southpaw Stylist · Post by **Southpaw Stylist** » 20 Dec 2007, 11:20

Billy Graham is the perfect trainer for Hatton.

This fight will make them go back to the drawing board. There's no use saying "we lost to the best". The fact is, Ricky was well and truly exposed. However, it is NOT Billy's fault that Hatton lost. Hatton is supposedly a pound for pound level fighter. To be honest, I would imagine a trainer is merely support when you're at that level. Hatton's inability to change tactics is an obvious problem, and that obviously comes from a lack of sparring against ALL types of opponents over the years.

Put it this way, Ricky has clearly never been a gym rat. If he was, he'd have come up against loads of styles/weights and other little things that happen when you're in the gym day after day.

Imagine us blaming Freddie Roach when James Toney loses...Nobody does, because we all know JT is an autonomous fighter and basically does what he wants in the ring. I'd say most TOP class fighters are like that.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 20 Dec 2007, 11:32

Southpaw Stylist wrote:Billy Graham is the perfect trainer for Hatton.

This fight will make them go back to the drawing board. There's no use saying "we lost to the best". The fact is, Ricky was well and truly exposed. However, it is NOT Billy's fault that Hatton lost. Hatton is supposedly a pound for pound level fighter. To be honest, I would imagine a trainer is merely support when you're at that level. Hatton's inability to change tactics is an obvious problem, and that obviously comes from a lack of sparring against ALL types of opponents over the years.

Put it this way, Ricky has clearly never been a gym rat. If he was, he'd have come up against loads of styles/weights and other little things that happen when you're in the gym day after day.

Imagine us blaming Freddie Roach when James Toney loses...Nobody does, because we all know JT is an autonomous fighter and basically does what he wants in the ring. I'd say most TOP class fighters are like that.

Quite right. Hatton didn't even follow Graham's advice. He clearly lost the plot, somewhat understandable, given that Cortez had him hamstrung, but you cannot hope to succeed at the level Mayweather operates at if you lose your rag, ignore your corner, and fight with anger and emotion, which is precisely what happened.

Graham is the last person at fault, and I'm sure that under different circumstances, with a different ref, and following Graham's advice properly, he would have done better, though I find it hard to envisage Hatton winning.

harrygreb · Post by **harrygreb** » 20 Dec 2007, 11:32

some great posts terry - always worth reading (and you james). merry xmas all

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 20 Dec 2007, 11:45

DavidPayne wrote:I think a long range, fast, stiff jab from a southpaw stance is the tool of choice.

Yes, thrown double or even triple.

Mayweather likes his opponents to either come at him, or to stand within his punching range.

I'd like to see how Mayweather dealt with a Paul Williams.

I suspect that Mayweather would adopt a strategy of hunting Williams down, like Leonard was forced to do against Hearns.

I have a feeling that below 154, Mayweather would most likely find a way to beat pretty much everyone out there.

I think Cotto he would pick off and keep at arms length, though I think it would be a close one as Cotto is technically good, and cuts the ring off well.

Southpaw Stylist · Post by **Southpaw Stylist** » 20 Dec 2007, 11:48

Mayweather would chop Williams down from the body like a lumberjack. He was always good at chopping wood, thanks to his dad. This video demonstrates my point...

It's got Zab and Floyd in it, in fact...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdrzSgORnG8

manchesterfightfan · Post by **manchesterfightfan** » 20 Dec 2007, 13:36

I feel Billy 'bucket boy' Graham is a complete fraud.

Does anyone remember Phil Martin???

Why when asked can he never explain what educated pressure is??

Very insecure man who surronds himself with non boxing people so he does not get found out.

Great fighters make great trainers simple as that, Ricky Hatton has not changed much since he was an amateur although he no longer move his head and has stopped punching in combination.

chris s · Post by **chris s** » 20 Dec 2007, 13:41

In my opinion a trainer is only as good as the fighter he has to work with.

StepinFetchit · Post by **StepinFetchit** » 20 Dec 2007, 14:02

DavidPayne wrote:Ricky lost his head. Cortez influenced.
The connection between the two wasn't there in the corner.
Ricky hasn't thrown combinations for two years.
Ricky is a ten stone fighter.

They all seem like plain facts above.

Now the subjective, naive, novice, uninformed opinion stuff.

Pushing weights to build strength and power in a combination, volume puncher is the wrong path.
Timing, footwork, head-movement, stamina and speed are Ricky's strengths. Not as everyone now believes, his strength.

I don't care if he can lift the Phoenix Gym and Kerry Kayes' fridge - Can he throw combinations, move his head out the way of a jab, use range and land more than one shot before tying up?

Thats what matters.

Ricky has been reckless, one dimensional and ineffective for much of his post Tszyu career. You cant escape it.

But, Mayweather makes lots of fighters look pretty ordinary. That's the get out of jail card, to add to the Joe Cortez one. WHich I believe effected Ricky's chances by 50%.

And spoilt the fight as a spectacle.

Payne, your post was well put together until you started on Cortez...how T.F can you or anyone that is not a Hatton ball hugger justify the way Hatton has been allowed to clinch in fights to make a case that Cortz should not have been on top of Hatton from the start of the fight the way he was.

Take a look at the Urango fight after Hatton gets winded and the Collazo fight as soon as it began to not go his way.....Hattons fouling tacktics could have made the PBF fight into an ugley 12 round maul that would have seen Hatton having one of the most lop sided points defeats of all times after all his points deductions....because of Cortez we got to see a clean knock out ending.

Everyone except tyhe hatton d!ck riderz were fed up of his spoiling tacktics and he was being branded the new John Ruiz.

You can't justify the way Hatton had relied on spoiling and IF Cortez was on his case then he had it comming....no one was stopping Hatton from puching on the inside....Cortez was stopping Hattons grapping.

black panther · Post by **black panther** » 20 Dec 2007, 15:36

Hatton lost to the best fighter on the planet. If he was with Angelo Dundee, Emmanuel Stewart, Freddy Roach, Buddy Mcgirt, Eddie Futch he still would have lost IMO. Billy Graham is a good trainer - theres only so much a trainer can do - when it comes down to it, its just the fighters in the ring. At this late stage in Hatton's career was he really going to learn anything new? And as a few have stated Hatton hasnt shown any of the great lateral movement,angles and combination punching post the Vince Phillips fight. He's been walking in in a straight line, hitting and holding since then IMO. I think Graham has also done a great job with Matthew Mackin - a vastly improved fighter to the one who lost to Andrew Facey. Finally, I remember Barry Mcguigin talking about Hatton earlier in his career(around the Krivolapov fight I think) - he said Hatton, with his all-action, take chances style and his lifestyle he was never going to be a fighter with longevity but he would be very good while he lasts. I think its fair enough to say Hatton is on the slide - but to what extent we won't know until his next fight.

Rocky Balboa · Post by **Rocky Balboa** » 20 Dec 2007, 16:24

If Hatton had won, there would have been no rumours or talk about Billy Graham being an inefficient trainer for Ricky.

Anyway, the rumours, speculation about a split is academic now. Ricky has stated Billy will remain as trainer.

Really puts the rumours to bed in my view.

Spud · Post by **Spud** » 20 Dec 2007, 17:19

Rocky Balboa wrote:If Hatton had won, there would have been no rumours or talk about Billy Graham being an inefficient trainer for Ricky.

Anyway, the rumours, speculation about a split is academic now. Ricky has stated Billy will remain as trainer.

Really puts the rumours to bed in my view.

Wrong!!! - or should I say right about Billy.

Billy Graham - Preacher or Chancer?

Billy Graham - Preacher or Chancer?

Re: Billy Graham - Preacher or Chancer?